1. #1

    DW Unholy and Stat prios(PvP)

    I've been reading the US, EU and german DK forums and on every single one of those forums people seem to discuss new ideas of potential ways to push unholy damage in PvP to the max so I've figured why not just make a thread here too and talk about the possible ways of increasing our damage.

    Basicly the two themes on those forums were:

    - Statprio. For example US DK's having a different stat prio than EU DK's. Also a 2600 DK going for a full crit build even gems.


    - DW unholy as strikes are not used in PvP and the damage comes from necro absorb, diseases, pets and plagues all which benefits -hugely- from strength. 2k+ DK's agreeing with it being a damage increase. Dancing Steel on OH so that it benefits from fallen crusader on the MH




    I'd love to see a discussion about unholy PvP statprio once more aswell as the DW unholy playstyle -IN PVP-
    Strikes are barely used but your main damage sources(see above) get a huge increase in damage from dancing steel with fallen crusader+unholy might.


    As for statprio I have been following Mastery>Haste>Crit this season but the full crit DK on 2600 has made me curious.



    /Discuss and do not turn this into "LOL MY OPINION IS WORTH MORE, YOU ARE STUPID" thread please!
    Last edited by Naralix; 2014-01-11 at 05:57 AM.

  2. #2
    All I can say is that its really fun. ran 3's with lock uhdk and priest and it was a blast. only lost to teams with a lot of cleanses

  3. #3
    The DW thing has been discussed and used in previous seasons, but it ultimately turns out to be less damage DW than 2H. The reason is that yes, a lot of our damage is from diseases, pets and the delayed damage of necro but necro does have weapon damage, etc. It was mathed out and DW turned out to be behind 2H enough to essentially kill it.

    Now, with that said I can see in certain comps where you would want to do this. I am thinking of boomkin and affliction comps in which you are not the person doing the killing, but your job is to rot everything, necro stack and stay alive. DW has an upper hand in that scenario in the sense that you can either go for more disease damage by taking advantage of double runeforges such as cinderglacier gives 20% to both diseases [may need to test since I have not used this since cata], disarm protection, silence reduction, or straight AP (which is not as strong as double crusader imo)

    I don't think any less of Unholy players who choose to DW, I view it as preference. I will say that it is not optimal though.

    As for pumping out damage, with the massive boost to unholy might I think new numbers need to be run to see if straight strength gemming out does mastery. I also believed in mastery because it increases BP, gargoyle and soul reaper. Strength of course increases EVERYTHING so I can see the recent changes pushing it waaaaay ahead.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    The DW thing has been discussed and used in previous seasons, but it ultimately turns out to be less damage DW than 2H. The reason is that yes, a lot of our damage is from diseases, pets and the delayed damage of necro but necro does have weapon damage, etc. It was mathed out and DW turned out to be behind 2H enough to essentially kill it.

    Now, with that said I can see in certain comps where you would want to do this. I am thinking of boomkin and affliction comps in which you are not the person doing the killing, but your job is to rot everything, necro stack and stay alive. DW has an upper hand in that scenario in the sense that you can either go for more disease damage by taking advantage of double runeforges such as cinderglacier gives 20% to both diseases [may need to test since I have not used this since cata], disarm protection, silence reduction, or straight AP (which is not as strong as double crusader imo)

    I don't think any less of Unholy players who choose to DW, I view it as preference. I will say that it is not optimal though.

    As for pumping out damage, with the massive boost to unholy might I think new numbers need to be run to see if straight strength gemming out does mastery. I also believed in mastery because it increases BP, gargoyle and soul reaper. Strength of course increases EVERYTHING so I can see the recent changes pushing it waaaaay ahead.
    the only reason you do dual wield is to use dancing steel in the off hand for more str

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Not Againnn View Post
    the only reason you do dual wield is to use dancing steel in the off hand for more str

    ^
    This. As said I have not been able to test it myself but I had other DK's whch are also 2k+ run it on comps like Shadowcleave and they say it is infact an increase in damage.

    Basicly you just make dancing steel benefit from unholy might and fallen crusader, making it's proc far more valueable. I also heard it has an insane uptime due to dots.


    As for stat prio I have been running mastery>haste>crit and going full strength gems since 5.3 but maybe other builds are far more effective at this point?

  6. #6
    the crit build is amazing. just tried it again lst night.

    full crit build necro strikes makes u an unstoppable force. pressure hasnt been easier this season with unholy. <3___<3

  7. #7
    Necro strike can crit?
    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    If rogues become shit, all they can become is a different type of shit.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by pkm View Post
    Necro strike can crit?
    Exactly my thoughts.

  9. #9
    The pitiful dmg can, but not the absorb. Still crit is depending on amount a bit devastating, dmg gets more spikiy, you can burst faster while the necro is up and an SR crit is likely a 30% -> 0% which is nice if the healpally gets away and explodes behind the pillar.
    DC and garg crits hurt also for a good bit.

    Tested haste, crit and mastery setup so far, crit is my favorite so far as the spiky dmg is more dangerous and increases chances on finishing instead of someone getting away with low %.
    Mastery is doubledged as it doesn't effect the ghoul and the percentual increase in dmg shrinkgs pretty fast. Haste is good if you can manage high uptime or need high versatility, but using UP wisely can provide that to some degree, too.

    Always felt the more unpredictable the dmg is, the more dangerous it is and unholy is in my opinion good at that and having 25-30% crit (buffed) helps there, while providing to some degree the safety of strong burst.
    http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/eu/Azshara/raikh/

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Raikh/advanced

    Humans love to hate. They neither have to think nor to understand to hate something or someone and still they find a cause and solution for their problems.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Naralix View Post
    ^
    This. As said I have not been able to test it myself but I had other DK's whch are also 2k+ run it on comps like Shadowcleave and they say it is infact an increase in damage.

    Basicly you just make dancing steel benefit from unholy might and fallen crusader, making it's proc far more valueable. I also heard it has an insane uptime due to dots.


    As for stat prio I have been running mastery>haste>crit and going full strength gems since 5.3 but maybe other builds are far more effective at this point?
    You "heard" wrong since dancing steel is RPPM based on melee hits, not dots. I still think that either double crusader for more uptime or the defensive runeforges are more worthwhile than 1650 str.

    I also don't see how crit can be anything. Changing everything to crit gets you what, maybe 3-4% crit extra? Pushing you to what 19% crit from 15%? I would much rather have more reliable stats than a BP crit 4% more of the time...
    Last edited by Tyrean; 2014-01-10 at 02:23 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    You "heard" wrong since dancing steel is RPPM based on melee hits, not dots. I still think that either double crusader for more uptime or the defensive runeforges are more worthwhile than 1650 str.

    I also don't see how crit can be anything. Changing everything to crit gets you what, maybe 3-4% crit extra? Pushing you to what 19% crit from 15%? I would much rather have more reliable stats than a BP crit 4% more of the time...
    Double crusader is one of the last things i would consider. It isn't pve, where you maximum overall output matters, but focussed, lethal dmg. Crusader can't double proc, more uptime won't get you far.
    Dancing steel on the other hand is like an additional trinket proc, with considerable uptime, which is really good for burst, higher necros on the kill target, and as dots snapshot it increases pressure on the whole team.
    Also 1650 without multipliers, and we have strong multipliers. Considering, FC, UM, MotW/Kings and 10% ap, so about 6k ap, which is a nice addition.

    If its worth though, dunno. While I'm also the opinion that a weapon chain effect enchant woudl do better, the 2k rating one is ok or the rune enchant of course.

    But yeah, we lose also a good bunch of stats, while SS and FeS do alot less dmg. It may increase AoE dmg, but it reduces killing power, sceptical of the trade.
    http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/eu/Azshara/raikh/

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Raikh/advanced

    Humans love to hate. They neither have to think nor to understand to hate something or someone and still they find a cause and solution for their problems.

  12. #12
    Dancing Steel does procc of dots, if you don't believe it test it on the dummy. It does not proc from meleeswings only even if it says so it's not true. Also DW happens to deal more white damage than 2hand so the white damage is already a damage/DPS increase aswell. I have compared my own critchance to one of those DK's going full crit and he has 12(!)% more crit than me which is a -huge- difference but I'd love to hear more about crit as I have not the money to test it myself right now.


    Here is the number difference on some abilities, I have not tested the gargoyle for example but this should be a good insight already I hope:

    Attackpower:

    DW: 125k
    2hand: 119k

    Necrotic Strike:
    DW: 124k absorb
    2hand: 108k absorb


    Deathcoil:

    DW: 97k damage
    2hand: 94k damage


    Diseases:

    DW: 48k/32k ticks
    2hand: 45k/30k ticks

    White damage DPS:
    DW: ~18k
    2hand: 13,5k

    As you can see the damage(absorb difference) on necrotic is quite large for PvP. The other spells don't benefit as much as necro seems to do but it is still an increase, the dots will be active on everyone. You will do 3/2k more damage on every tick, on every target. Same goes for your other abilities. Also the difference will get bigger as you do crits too the crits will be larger aswell.

    Another advantage of this playstyle is you can spam icy touch with less drawback(if you use icy touch with a 2hand you lose way more damage than you do with one handers due to festering strike/no festering strike difference) and an offensive dispel(dispelling hots, shields etc.) can be extremly powerful.


    So far the only thing I dislike is that it doesn't play as fluently/fun as normal unholy but that may be just my opinion. However I can feel the difference in damage. Another thing is when you use 2x the same weapon and you accidently equip the dancing steel one in the mainhand, can be quite the issue.


    Edit: I will be testing this setup, running shadowcleave later and leave further impressions here
    Last edited by Naralix; 2014-01-10 at 03:59 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Naralix View Post
    long and interesting post, thank you
    I'd love to see your armory!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Kukkaroinen View Post
    I'd love to see your armory!
    It is in my signature now

    - - - Updated - - -

    Played some arena today and I can cofirm what has been mentioned on the US forums before.

    For singletarget combos(TSG/PHD and similar) a 2hand still feels to run better altough DW isn't bad there either, pefectly viable infact just 2hand seems stronger.
    For aidscleaves/general pressure (Double Healer, Shadowcleave, Moonkin/Spriest+DK) DW is ahead by far in comparison. The difference in necros and dots just adds so much more overall pressure and I highly recommend trying it out. Looking forward to test this in 5s when we are going to play 5s next.

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