1. #1

    Post [heroic T16] Strategy changes 10man vs 25man Raid

    Hi guys,


    like some other Guilds before WoD we merge our current 10 Man Raid (10/14hc) with 2 other 10 man Raids to one 25 Man Raid.
    Most of us are well geared (556-573) and everyone has at least 5 heroics killed. Because of too much tanks some of them switch to melee, so we got a couple melees at the beginning (7-10 melees, don't know how much of them switch to a twink like I do).

    Our starting setup will look like this: http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/?c=...pi000000000000 Some of them can switch to twinks & we got some applicants. It's not a ideal setup but I'll hope for the beginning it's enough to kill some heroics.

    As our Raid Lead in 10 Man I already looked in some forums & kill vids from 25 man raids but how much do the strategy changes? And how much healers do we need? In 10 Man we 2 healed already everything besides shamans & juggernaut

    So but after event the stuff I read & watched I still have some questionsI know you can't give me exact numbers without knowing our players but maybe a roughly number)

    Immerseus HC: number of healers?
    Protectors HC: how much soakers do we need for the softfoot add?
    Norushen HC: How much dps do you sent down simultaneously? When to use BL? Do you sen't all dps down? Soaking orbs with tanks and healers only?
    Sha HC: Split raid into groups for prisons, but besides this, does everyone stand like in 10 man behind the boss, or should we spread out around the boss so our melees are able to close more rifts? How much healers do we need?
    Galakras HC: how much DDs do you sent to the towers? and how much ranges do you sent to protect Demolition Crew? Are 2 soaker camps enough in P2 ?
    Juggernaut HC: 6-7 healers what I saw so far, is the 10 man strategy also possible in 25 man with standing back in P2 and ignore the Mortar Barrage? It is also possible for tanks soak the mines without any bigger personal or external cooldowns?
    Shamans HC: Melees +2 Tanks + 3 healers on the hill together with earthbreaker and ranges with 3 healers, 1 tank stay on Kardris?
    Nazgrim HC: 3 tanks possible what I saw so far, with our number of melees should we sent them all on the adds?
    Malkorok HC: It is also possible to solo soak P2 as a blood DK? (didn't had much problems with this on 10 man)


    Thank you in advance & sorry for my grammar!


    greetings,

    Sudos

  2. #2
    Immerseus: 5-7 healers depending on how comfortable they feel, it's the easiest boss so it doesn't really matter.
    Protectors: probably 3-5 people for the add soaking.
    Norushen: only 1 dps at a time so your raid doesn't get overwhelmed, we send them in interval of 10 seconds. Combination of tanks and healers for orb soaking, BL after all dps are cleansed and boss is in execute range, lets say 30%.
    Sha: 5 healers are enough if you coordinate healing cooldowns in last phase, easier strategy here is to be spread across whole room and never stack for Gifts, unless you really need the damage.
    Galakras: all melee on towers (7-8), hunters can join as well, 3-4 capable ranged to protect demolition crew. Two camps in last phase do the job just fine.
    Juggernaut: outranging the barrage phase is perfectly viable.
    Shaman: pretty much what you said.
    Nazgrim: unless you struggle with berserk timer, fight gets much more cleaner by sending all melee on adds. 3 tanks possible, but not necessary.
    Malkorok: I imagine this could be very hard, maybe impossible to solo as blood DK. The cleave does about triple the damage of 10m, even paladins and monks need well coordinated external cooldowns to survive.
    Shaman - Hunter - Monk - Druid - Warlock - DK - another Shaman - one more Shaman

  3. #3
    Thank you so far Faeglendir,

    @Norushen : in 10 Man we sent 2 DPS down simultaneously , one of them begun with the small adds, one with the big one. It's too much chaos on 25 man or do you run out of soakers with this strategy?

  4. #4
    You can definitely do that if tank is ready to pick both adds and there is someone to soak both orbs. I mean, the small adds die right away, so your only restriction is how fast you can taunt these big adds and kill them before their AoE starts to kill people.
    Shaman - Hunter - Monk - Druid - Warlock - DK - another Shaman - one more Shaman

  5. #5
    On shaman it's deffinetely best to split raid. I found it very easy to heal ranged side so I would even recommend 2 healers there. For nazgrim using 3 tanks isn't that useful so I would just go with 2 tanks there.

    Our norushen tactic has 5 people go in at start and some people kill little adds first so we won't get all big adds. Then 2 healers will soak orbs and rest will be sokaed by dpsers. After that any dps that gets full energy will go into realm and thus we will have 3 orbs come after that. Some extra cds are needed at start, but I feel it's otherwise pretty lax to heal with 3 adds up as long as orbs are soaked especially if you go with 6 instead of 5 healers.

    For malkrok it's possible for every single class to solo tank the phase, but it deffinetely isn't easy for a dk. Your dk will need the trinket from protectors and some externals such as: constant hand of sacrivice + ironbark + vigilance and barrier and pain sup after that for rest of phase. It's also possible for shadow priests and hunters to step in with their respective cds up for few secs. They will take about 400k a hit which should be healable.

  6. #6
    thank you both!

    @Norushen so it's similar to 10 man , you got a lot of ways to do this :P

    @Malkorok , I soaked our Bloodrage phase without any big external cooldowns, only warrior deff banner, Vigilance & sometimes HoF from our holy pala. But sometimes event without HoF & Vigilance. Got already the heroic trinket from protectors. Just reforge master->haste->other stats and you got an awesome death strike uptime during this phase and together with my other cooldowns (icebound fortitude,DRW,death pact, boneshield, vampiric blood, trinket etc...) it was easy to soak (other healers got 230k and 200k hps and I as blood dk 170k). So could be also possible in 25 man because you got much more cooldowns you can request on demand :P

  7. #7
    You soaked Bloodrage in 10 because it hits for, what, 2 millions? It's 6 millions in 25, that's a huge difference and it does require a full set of cooldowns to survive as Death Knight. Death Strike, sure, but it doesn't compare with Monks/Pallies having constant 50% reduction is addition to all other reductions. And asuming you won't kill him before second Blood rage, that's over 7 millions, requiring even more cd's.

    Perfectly doable, but there are classes that have it easier.

  8. #8
    Some additions:
    On Norushen, many different strategies are viable. We, for example, have our healers go down one by one. The first DD go down in a pair, and then one after the other (so that usually 1-2 dds are down there). More DDs mean more adds on the top side, which can be quite a strain on the healers and tanks. Less DDs mean more problems with the enrage. You have to find the sweet spot for you setup.
    Galakras: Less players on the tower then Faeglendir stated are also possible. We usually send all melees up there except for monks (because very strong cleave) and DKs (for the grip), and fill up with hunters. Usually 1 tank + 4 DDs + 1-2 healer. Again, you have to find the sweet spot for your guild between managing the adds down there, not to get overrun, and you tower group beeing fast enough, that the dragons don't start oneshotting people in the raid.
    Juggernaut: We even started out with 8 healers and outranging the barrage. It depends a little bit on how many / how good raid CDs you have for the knockbacks. Many rogues / DKs / Palas / Warris etc with good CDs to reduce incoming damage or increase HP can even push you down to 2 healers less without problems.
    Nazgrim: It depends a bit on your strategy. The easiest one to execute I've seen is just pull everything together and cleave it away, with a special focus on the shaman and his totem. 2 tanks are enough for that. In my guild, we use a bit more complicated tactic (I have absolutely no idea why, though ). A third tank offtanks the warrior and the shaman. Nuke priorities are different for ranged and melee. The melees do the arcweaver > assassin (if the followed manages to get him to the melees) > sniper (which should be somewhere near the boss, watching away from it). Ranged do shaman > assassin > sniper > ironblade.
    Malkorok: Don't underestimate the damage of the blood rage. It does about 2.75 times the damage in 25 HC than it does in 10 HC. So if you are hit for let's say 500k in 10m (just to name a number), you're getting hit by ~1.37m in 25m. Though solo tanking is definitely the easiest way to do it. I do it in my guild as a monk, which may be the best class for it due to the stagger mechanic. You need the CD-reduce trinket, though, else your CDs are not ready for the 2nd one.

    Hope this helps, best of luck to you.

    [e] One thing I completely forgot to mention, just came to my mind: I'm not sure if 3 ranged / healers on the male shaman are enough to not get any graves in the melees. It could be 4.
    Last edited by Forsta; 2014-01-09 at 03:02 PM.

  9. #9
    Thanks for the Malkorok tips, didn't know it's such a big dmg difference ^^ And regarding the other bosses: some of your tips are better than the stuff you find in some guides. Also thx for this ! It gives us some ideas to find a good strategy for the bosses


    @Shamans
    yeah I read somewhere something about 3 healers / 3 ranges, I'll try to look it up


    ----



    How much melees do run overall ? Any experience with too much melees ?

  10. #10
    @ Malkorok: It has to do much more damage, else just stacking and healing through it would be too easy in 25m, where you have just more players to soak the damage. Probably 2.75 times is a bit too much, especially seeing how easy solo tanking the phase is in 10m, but as stated: It is definitely viable too in 25 man, and in my opinion, it makes the boss easier than stacking in the blood rage phase.

    @ melees: Completely depending on the boss. We had experiences with too many melees. We usually run ~8 melees, +-3. But, for most bosses, we don't optimize our setup, just ask who would like to pass and work with what we have. So it's not a good example for an optimized raid.

    Examples:
    Shaman - Some melees had to go to the "ranged side" to help keep everything under control (e.g. adds), and to avoid getting too few people the 100% hp damage debuff too often. While melees are as viable as ranged for that, they have a much more stressful time there dodging everything, e.g. aoeing the adds without getting hit by their aoe. And the tank has to pull the boss around much more to take the boss far away from the tornadoes, that the melees can still stand behind the boss.
    Malkorok - Theoretically, you could do the boss with any setup. But the more range, the better the coverage of the room to soak. This makes the boss far easier.
    Those are the two that come to mind right now with a bit bigger impact. Generally, ranged are just better. Protectors - too many melees means a lot of keg-dodging. Galakras - too many melees means a lot more damage from the shaman wave (except you manage to interrupt every single one) and the dragon shots. On Thok, ranged do generally more damage. Spoils - Melees have to get away completely from the mobs to soak a red zone of the anima golems, while ranged can still do damage. Etc.

    But, all in all, I'd say the only encounter which is much much harder with too many melees and too few ranged is Malkorok. Anything else can be adjusted, and is somewhat harder with too many melees. Note that this only impacts the first 11 bosses, I have no idea about Siegecrafter, Klaxxi and Garrosh HC.
    Last edited by Forsta; 2014-01-09 at 03:39 PM.

  11. #11
    Last three aren't melee unfriendly either. Yeah, sure, if you have zero ranged at all, they'd be a pain - Mines would be really annoying, as well as Fiery Edges (and triple melee Mutate splash damage, ouch), but that's pretty extreme and unrealistic scenario. Nothing that really punishes you for bringing more melee than ranged.

  12. #12
    Hi guys,

    got yesterday the first 25 man raid.
    Our rooster changed totally (down to 3 melees lol). Killed the first 4 heroics. Compared to 10 man Immerseus & Protectors is quite easy, 1 shot booth. 2 Shooth Norushen (Enrage hi) and got 4-5 wipes on Sha. Sha is compared to 10 man also easier when you tell the people to soak rifts, handle the prisons properly & place the rifts in the middle. We ignored the buff since it was a too big dps loss running together in the middle of the room. But some people a pretty lazy regarding movement (it's like: "Hi there are other 24 people who can do this")



    3 tanks / 6 healers on Immerseus ( I tanked the adds in DD gear)
    2 tanks / 6 healers on Protectors
    3 tanks / 6 healers on Norushen (sent down 3 dps simultaneously , next time we try 4 at the same time because with 3 dps you got sometimes zero adds up in the normal phase and with 3 tanks its still very easy to tank)
    2 tank / 6 healers on Sha , splitted up the whole raid in 4 groups and every group stood near the prison, so it was easier to soak rifts,get the people out from the prisons and you got a lot of space to move.


    Regarding our rooster we got 3 new healers, one of them got the whole time disconnects (hi paladin) and the other were underperforming (Druid / Monk). Had about 4-5 new dps which applied to our guild, they did their job fine, dps could be better.


    thank you for your tips


    Sudos

  13. #13
    We basically used all the same strats on 25 as we did 10m. Cept on Sha. Went 10/14H in two nights.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Liax View Post
    We basically used all the same strats on 25 as we did 10m. Cept on Sha. Went 10/14H in two nights.

    2 Nights 8 heroics - It's a joke compared to 10 man ( about 40-50% of our raid today had only 5 hc's killed before in 10 man or 1-3 guys never killed a heroic SoO encounter before this riad)


    6 healers on Galakras ( it is a joke if you handle p1 easily and have somone who call out which to camp you have to move in p2, popped lust @ 55%)
    7 healers on Juggernaut ( stay away in p2 and use for each knockback 2-3 raid cooldowns and after each knockback/shock pulse a healing tide, tranq etc..)
    6 healers on Shamans (Priest,Shamans,Shaman healers upper hill and Disc,Pala,Druid healers lower group - Melee group on the hill should prepare for high incoming dmg due to the debuffs & falling ash, lower group with ranges is a joke if you raid stack at one position behind the kardis tank)
    5 healers on Nazgrim (just teach people to switch properly to the adds and the aftershock voids/zone is much bigger than in 10 man)



    thx so far for you tips&suggestions guys

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by sudos View Post
    Thanks for the Malkorok tips, didn't know it's such a big dmg difference ^^
    In general boss abilities do anywhere from 2x-3x more damage on 25 man compared to 10 man.

    How much melees do run overall ? Any experience with too much melees ?
    I'd say Sha of Pride, Thok and Siegecrafter are the biggest three bosses where making sure to minimize melee is an issue but I prefer to look at a minimum number of range rather than max number of melee. We do fine with a minimum of 6 ranged not including healers.

  16. #16
    Regarding the first reply: why would you send melee on adds in nazgrim? It's just a lot of running around trying to catch mobs/avoid ironstorms etc. Just let your melee tunnel nazgrim (unless you are REALLY hurting in the range department), that way they can maximize their usefulness. Also, 3 tanks makes the fight a LOT cleaner (two for boss, one adds). And on shammies, dont put melee with the ranged group. The adds will easily kill them. Lastly about norushen: how many you send down is purely down to your tanks ability to aggro the big ones and your dps's ability to kill them fast. The more you can send down the better

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