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  1. #1

    Soloing old content in WoD MIGHT be affected - latest tweet

    IMPORTANT:

    I have read the replies and I apologize for not expressing my thoughts clearly enough, and possibly for making this thread.

    I did NOT misread the tweet. I did NOT try to imply that soloing at level 100 is already known to be doomed. Please note that the title of the thread is completely valid and true, for example. My thought was somewhat different - that, given the extreme scarcity of info on the topic, the tweet was probably bad news for soloing at level 100 as well even though it was discussing soloing at lower levels. I have failed to express this thought well enough (and adding a couple of paragraphs to the bottom of this post yesterday evidently didn't help much). Sorry for that.

    Thanks for listening.

    -------------------------

    Recent tweet from Celestalon:

    https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...66130876674048

    Reproducing the entire exchange here:

    Aelo: I keep seeing promises that the item squish won't affect soloing capabilities, but is this for all characters or only level 90s?
    Celestalon (Blizzard): All.
    Celestalon (Blizzard): That is to say; the squish won't affect soloing capabilities, but other changes may. Soloing at low levels isn't a balance focus.

    LOL.

    So much for "if you can solo something now, you will be able to solo it later". Who is going to bet that something *will* indeed make it harder or impossible to solo content that is soloable now? Because that "isn't a balance focus".

    That's why we asked and asked and asked Blizzard what exactly are they going to do to make sure the squish won't affect the soloing capability. To which they gave no answer. It's like they just now realized that hey, yeah, there is a problem here, and we don't know how to solve it really, so yeah, it's not a balance focus.

    Like I needed one more reason to quit after the recent news of MoP having one more arena season with obvious consequences for expectations of the release date of WoD...

    --- Added later:

    I see this needs clarification.

    No, they aren't saying that soloing at level 100 in WoD isn't a balance target or might suffer, these words relate to soloing at lower levels. If they were saying these things about soloing at level 100, it would have been game over. But, having read Blizz-speak for years, I believe there's ample reasons to worry about soloing at level 100 in WoD compared to level 90 in MoP as well.

    Blizzard never deliver bad news like broken promises looking straight in your face. They keep silent, then they grudgingly say some things which can be interpreted as bad news, and then, when it becomes apparent that they dropped the ball, they point to those things they said that could have been interpreted as bad news (and largely weren't, because the fanboys were objecting furiously) and pretend that they were misunderstood and never "actually" promised anything.

    That's what I think is happening here.

    Maybe my judgement is clouded. Take it or leave it. And time will tell, of course. But yes, I believe soloing at level 100 is in danger and will pretty likely be affected.
    Last edited by rda; 2014-01-09 at 08:00 AM.

  2. #2
    Reading comprehension mate.

    What he is saying is that other changes may affect the ability to solo. E.g - the removal of base damage, health and such from characters and spells. This will be a much needed nerf to lower level dps and may affect a low level character's ability to solo old content.

    If you can solo content now (at max level) you can solo it in WoD.

    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  3. #3
    OP needs to take the blinders off and actually understand what he's reading.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    Reading comprehension mate.

    What he is saying is that other changes may affect the ability to solo. E.g - the removal of base damage, health and such from characters and spells. This will be a much needed nerf to lower level dps and may affect a low level character's ability to solo old content.

    If you can solo content now (at max level) you can solo it in WoD.
    Sorry, it's you who have to learn to read Blizzard-speak.

    The key phrase in the tweet is: "That is to say; the squish won't affect soloing capabilities, but other changes may. Soloing at low levels isn't a balance focus."

    This means:

    1. Soloing at level 100 in WoD might be worse than soloing the same content at level 90 in MoP - not because of the squish, but because of other changes. This might or might not get worse on the road to WoD, mind you, Blizzard reneged on a lot of things like that.

    2. Soloing at levels before 100, eg, at level 90, in WoD will almost surely be worse than soloing the same content at the same level in MoP, because keeping it the same isn't even a target (and there are always things that break the balance there, in both directions, and the direction of the squish makes sure that these changes will make the player weaker compared to previously soloable bosses).

    Grand phrases like "it's all going to be fine" matter little. It's always the details that end up mattering.

  5. #5
    Field Marshal yinne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Sorry, it's you who have to learn to read Blizzard-speak.

    The key phrase in the tweet is: "That is to say; the squish won't affect soloing capabilities, but other changes may. Soloing at low levels isn't a balance focus."

    This means:

    1. Soloing at level 100 in WoD might be worse than soloing the same content at level 90 in MoP - not because of the squish, but because of other changes. This might or might not get worse on the road to WoD, mind you, Blizzard reneged on a lot of things like that.

    2. Soloing at levels before 100, eg, at level 90, in WoD will almost surely be worse than soloing the same content at the same level in MoP, because keeping it the same isn't even a target (and there are always things that break the balance there, in both directions, and the direction of the squish makes sure that these changes will make the player weaker compared to previously soloable bosses).

    Grand phrases like "it's all going to be fine" matter little. It's always the details that end up mattering.
    No you are wrong. Just as the other people have said here, you aren't reading it correctly.

  6. #6
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    This means:

    1. Soloing at level 100 in WoD might be worse than soloing the same content at level 90 in MoP - not because of the squish, but because of other changes. This might or might not get worse on the road to WoD, mind you, Blizzard reneged on a lot of things like that.

    2. Soloing at levels before 100, eg, at level 90, in WoD will almost surely be worse than soloing the same content at the same level in MoP, because keeping it the same isn't even a target (and there are always things that break the balance there, in both directions, and the direction of the squish makes sure that these changes will make the player weaker compared to previously soloable bosses).

    Grand phrases like "it's all going to be fine" matter little. It's always the details that end up mattering.
    That was true for every Addon so far.
    A removed / nerfed key ability will have a lot more influence than a raw stat squish.
    Soloing will not be worse because of the squish, because they essentially only cut back a bunch of 0s on both sides.

    1000/3000 = 1/3

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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Sorry, it's you who have to learn to read Blizzard-speak.

    The key phrase in the tweet is: "That is to say; the squish won't affect soloing capabilities, but other changes may. Soloing at low levels isn't a balance focus."

    This means:

    1. Soloing at level 100 in WoD might be worse than soloing the same content at level 90 in MoP - not because of the squish, but because of other changes. This might or might not get worse on the road to WoD, mind you, Blizzard reneged on a lot of things like that.

    2. Soloing at levels before 100, eg, at level 90, in WoD will almost surely be worse than soloing the same content at the same level in MoP, because keeping it the same isn't even a target (and there are always things that break the balance there, in both directions, and the direction of the squish makes sure that these changes will make the player weaker compared to previously soloable bosses).

    Grand phrases like "it's all going to be fine" matter little. It's always the details that end up mattering.
    So you think at level 90 you won't be able to solo MC? BWL? AQ40? Naxx40? Yeah, okay.

    His tweet means that if you are level 40 you probably won't be able to solo a level 40 dungeon like you can easily do now for a couple of classes that I know of.

    Gotta love how people read way too much into something that should be easily understood.

  8. #8
    Wildstar. Wildstar's another reason to quit.

    Infracted: Derailing and off-topic. [ML]
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2014-01-08 at 05:30 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    That was true for every Addon so far.
    A removed / nerfed key ability will have a lot more influence than a raw stat squish.
    Soloing will not be worse because of the squish, because they essentially only cut back a bunch of 0s on both sides.
    Not so at all.

    The opposite was true - soloing at level 70 in WoTLK got EASIER than soloing at level 70 was in TBC. Etc.

    And, again, if you think it's all fine because they haven't directly said that soloing at level 100 in WoD "might be different" from soloing at level 90 in MoP, then you haven't been paying attention to what and how Blizzard say. They never deliver the bad news like broken promises looking straight in your face. They keep silent, then they grudgingly say some things which can be interpreted as bad news, and then, when it becomes apparent that they dropped the ball, they point to those things they said that could have been interpreted as bad news (and largely weren't, because the fanboys were objecting furiously) and pretend that they were misunderstood and never "actually" promised anything.

    I think this is what is happening here.

    We'll see, of course. Well, you'll see (I quit today after reading the news on one more arena season).

  10. #10
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draenei View Post
    Wildstar. Wildstar's another reason to quit.
    If their art wasn't so goddamn butt ugly I'd give it a shot.
    But the style is so not my cup of tea... >.<

    The opposite was true - soloing at level 70 in WoTLK got EASIER than soloing at level 70 was in TBC. Etc.
    Yes because, Damage > all when it comes to soloing more or less trivial stuff.
    You kill Kaelthas in 30s today, you will kill him 30s post squish. Once you're lv. 100 and gather more gear you will kill him even faster.

    Now will DKs still be able to solo crazy stuff like current/last Tiers content?
    THAT most certainly is up to debate and may be impacted heavily by spell/mechanical changes.

    Thats what Celestalon is referring to.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2014-01-08 at 02:46 PM.

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  11. #11
    It just means that spell and balance changes unrelated to the item squish may or may not affect soloing. This shouldn't really surprise anybody and is hardly worth talking about, as it has been happening for almost 10 years now.

  12. #12

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Marema View Post
    So you think at level 90 you won't be able to solo MC? BWL? AQ40? Naxx40? Yeah, okay.
    I see you don't believe it, but if you do the math on the squish, you will see that, yes, soloing MC, yet alone Naxx, on level 90 is going to be much, much, much harder than it is now. And, yes, they do say that it's not the squish, but they also never detailed as to what exactly is going to compensate the squish, and - the kicker - they say that balancing at level 90 isn't going to be a target in WoD at all, right in the tweet I cited (so if what they do to compensate the squish for level 100 doesn't work at all or well enough for level 90, it's fine).

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Not so at all.

    The opposite was true - soloing at level 70 in WoTLK got EASIER than soloing at level 70 was in TBC. Etc.

    And, again, if you think it's all fine because they haven't directly said that soloing at level 100 in WoD "might be different" from soloing at level 90 in MoP, then you haven't been paying attention to what and how Blizzard say. They never deliver the bad news like broken promises looking straight in your face. They keep silent, then they grudgingly say some things which can be interpreted as bad news, and then, when it becomes apparent that they dropped the ball, they point to those things they said that could have been interpreted as bad news (and largely weren't, because the fanboys were objecting furiously) and pretend that they were misunderstood and never "actually" promised anything.

    I think this is what is happening here.

    We'll see, of course. Well, you'll see (I quit today after reading the news on one more arena season).
    Well considering you think Blizzard is full of a bunch of liars you've already unsubbed and won't be buying the expac so this will hardly affect you.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Sorry, it's you who have to learn to read Blizzard-speak.

    The key phrase in the tweet is: "That is to say; the squish won't affect soloing capabilities, but other changes may. Soloing at low levels isn't a balance focus."

    This means:

    1. Soloing at level 100 in WoD might be worse than soloing the same content at level 90 in MoP - not because of the squish, but because of other changes. This might or might not get worse on the road to WoD, mind you, Blizzard reneged on a lot of things like that.

    2. Soloing at levels before 100, eg, at level 90, in WoD will almost surely be worse than soloing the same content at the same level in MoP, because keeping it the same isn't even a target (and there are always things that break the balance there, in both directions, and the direction of the squish makes sure that these changes will make the player weaker compared to previously soloable bosses).

    Grand phrases like "it's all going to be fine" matter little. It's always the details that end up mattering.
    These tweets are a response to Aelo's, who specifically cares about level 80 soloing. Don't get your panties in a bunch.
    Last edited by Shahad; 2014-01-08 at 02:54 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    I see you don't believe it, but if you do the math on the squish, you will see that, yes, soloing MC, yet alone Naxx, on level 90 is going to be much, much, much harder than it is now. And, yes, they do say that it's not the squish, but they also never detailed as to what exactly is going to compensate the squish, and - the kicker - they say that balancing at level 90 isn't going to be a target in WoD at all, right in the tweet I cited (so if what they do to compensate the squish for level 100 doesn't work at all or well enough for level 90, it's fine).
    While you're level 90 trying to solo old content the rest of the world will be headed to 100. Good luck!

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Soloing at low levels isn't a balance focus.[/B]
    goddamnit OP, learn to read. that means that they arn´t balacing around a lvl 80 chars soloing lvl70 stuff for example, but they do balance for maxlevel chars. "but other changes may" means that the ability to solo something may gets changed due to the changing of spells like a removal of tank pets and so on
    Last edited by Valyna; 2014-01-08 at 02:55 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Sorry, it's you who have to learn to read Blizzard-speak.

    The key phrase in the tweet is: "That is to say; the squish won't affect soloing capabilities, but other changes may. Soloing at low levels isn't a balance focus."

    Actually, the key phrase is "Soloing at low levels isn't a balance focus."

    Out of context quote is out of context.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    That was true for every Addon so far.
    A removed / nerfed key ability will have a lot more influence than a raw stat squish.
    Soloing will not be worse because of the squish, because they essentially only cut back a bunch of 0s on both sides.

    1000/3000 = 1/3
    It's so funny that people still don't comprehend what the problem is. It's no linear change - you cannot simply "cut back a bunch of 0s" in the game. From what we've seen in the blizzcon is that the stats of a 90 player after the squish will be about 1/1000 of that now.

    So, does that mean mobs until BC will have 1hp? And you will do about 10 dps with level 80? Well, this does seem strange, doesn't it?

    So they cannot simply change it linear, but logarithmically or even on a manual scale. But back to the example, if wotlk mobs get nerfed by the factor of 100, and you get nerfed by the factor of 1000, you are 10 times weaker than before the squish.
    The overall relative difficulty of soloing old content cannot stay the same.

    It will change - but that doesn't mean it will be worse for the players, but there is much testing und number turning necessary to achieve about the same difficulty, but from the quote you can see they won't invest much time in it. So perhaps they will fail and soloing old content gets harder, they will succeed and the difficulty stay almost the same, they tune down old raids so much that it won't affect anyone or they will come up with other creative solutions (like counting "old" boss mobs not boss level but normal mobs of that level, which drastically reduces the damage they take and can inflict).

    Nobody can tell until we play on the beta server.

  20. #20
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    I see you don't believe it, but if you do the math on the squish, you will see that, yes, soloing MC, yet alone Naxx, on level 90 is going to be much, much, much harder than it is now. And, yes, they do say that it's not the squish, but they also never detailed as to what exactly is going to compensate the squish, and - the kicker - they say that balancing at level 90 isn't going to be a target in WoD at all, right in the tweet I cited (so if what they do to compensate the squish for level 100 doesn't work at all or well enough for level 90, it's fine).
    No one cares.
    Buy xpac -> level to 100 -> solo to your hearts content.

    I really don't see the problem at all. WoW was NEVER balanced around low level stuff and I hope it never will be.

    But back to the example, if wotlk mobs get nerfed by the factor of 100, and you get nerfed by the factor of 1000, you are 10 times weaker than before the squish.
    The overall relative difficulty of soloing old content cannot stay the same.
    Zone wide buff for high level characters could easily offset all that on the fly.
    Just saying.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2014-01-08 at 03:00 PM.

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