View Poll Results: 4 months out, how many players should've been able to defeat H Garrosh?

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  • <.25%

    524 32.27%
  • <2%

    545 33.56%
  • <5%

    266 16.38%
  • <10%

    136 8.37%
  • >10%

    153 9.42%
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  1. #1001
    Pandaren Monk klogaroth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    That is what a Skinner Box is supposed to do. Anyways it always good to see a heroic raider admit that it is all about the gear.

    I have had the Loremaster title since no long after Wrath was released and have never used it.
    Did you not read the first sentence?

    Just the fact you've beaten it is the main reward, although the other things also gain increased value.

    As I said a mount from a heroic end boss has more perceived value than a mount obtained from something easier.

    You might not come for the gear, but the perceived value of gear that drops from a difficult boss is greater than the perceived value of gear from an easy boss. Whether you turn up for it or not.


    Also, sometimes it can be about the gear, much less so after many years though. I'm pretty sure the very first people to walk get their hands on full tier one were pretty please to have done so, and looked pretty badass in a world before transmog and raid tiers into 2 figures. This effect wears off pretty quickly though, as once you've replaced a couple of gearsets you don't really care.

    Some games rely almost solely on it being about the gear, although WoW isn't one of them. I'm not going to pretend that bosses don't drop loot, and that especially end of expansion boss loot is for any purpose other than trying to rank on farm and to say "look I beat Garrosh heroic". Same as I'm not going to pretend that the titles are for anything other than that. They are there to say "look I did a thing".
    Last edited by klogaroth; 2014-01-12 at 10:24 PM.

  2. #1002
    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    Did you not read the first sentence?

    Just the fact you've beaten it is the main reward, although the other things also gain increased value.

    As I said a mount from a heroic end boss has more perceived value than a mount obtained from something easier.

    You might not come for the gear, but the perceived value of gear that drops from a difficult boss is greater than the perceived value of gear from an easy boss. Whether you turn up for it or not.


    Also, sometimes it can be about the gear, much less so after many years though. I'm pretty sure the very first people to walk get their hands on full tier one were pretty please to have done so, and looked pretty badass in a world before transmog and raid tiers into 2 figures. This effect wears off pretty quickly though, as once you've replaced a couple of gearsets you don't really care.

    Some games rely almost solely on it being about the gear, although WoW isn't one of them.
    I did read the first line I just wondered where you were going with your posts. It appears to be yet another post about the lowly casuals wanting instant gratification whilst heroic raiders are above such petty nonsense.

    It is laughable to suggest that WOW is not all about gear, no-one would run the content on offer multiple times if it was not for gear.

  3. #1003
    Pandaren Monk klogaroth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I did read the first line I just wondered where you were going with your posts. It appears to be yet another post about the lowly casuals wanting instant gratification whilst heroic raiders are above such petty nonsense.

    It is laughable to suggest that WOW is not all about gear, no-one would run the content on offer multiple times if it was not for gear.
    I mentioned nothing of the sort regarding anyone.

    Gear upgrades are a factor in any level of gameplay right from level 1 questing, but they aren't the only factor in play. Maybe you want to see where the questline is going, maybe you just want to do all the quests, maybe you want the XP, maybe you want the gear.

    I don't know all the reasons why people who have beaten Garrosh did so.
    I do, however, know that people will run content even when they can't get any gear from it. So there must be reasons beyond gear. Including just wanting to practice, wanting to get DPS/HPS ranks, wanting to spend some time with your guild, even possibly, as shocking as it sounds, because you actually enjoy the content.

    The reason instant gratification was brought into things was the mention of games which functioned purely on this idea.
    My argument is that WoW does not exist solely on that, and that there are other factors in play, throughout the game.

    The reason heroic raiding is the opposite of instant gratification is simply that the end boss is the end boss. It's the biggest delay that you can have in PvE, because it's the boss that by default you are furthest from, however close or far you are from killing it.

    That says nothing about who LIKES instant gratification and who is above it and whatnot. It just says that the endboss is the boss furthest away. People do tend to get the most satisfaction from being on the edge of what they can do though. If beating normal modes or flex feels like a real challenge then it'll feel like an accomplishment when you beat it.

    Storytime!
    I remember my first 5 man heroic dungeon. It was Violet Hold. Xevozz came out (the ethereal boss you have to kite). I thought he was really hard. Constantly moving and trying to tank a boss at the same time. In the end when we killed him it was with my guildmate taunting him off me when the orbs spawned. It felt really good to finish that dungeon.
    Now everyone knows that violet hold was, in the grand scheme of things, not a difficult place. At that time though, it felt like the hardest MMO content I had ever done, and probably was. The more I killed 5 man heroic bosses though, the more I was comfortable with killing them, so I felt less accomplishment from doing so. They were no longer on the edge of what I could do, so I looked for more difficult content. If you can believe it, I found Naxxramas fell under the more difficult content bracket for me and moved into raiding from there.

    The fact that at that around that time people were killing Algalon 25 and progressing on Yogg +0 didn't detract from me working my way through heroic 5 mans and Naxx.

    People killing Garrosh doesn't mean that people working on their first level 90 5 man need to feel any less accomplishment when they beat it than I did when I finished Violet Hold.
    He is out there though, standing in a room underneath Orgrimmar. Whether people want to kill him or not he is the current end to the PvE progression road.

    And people who find Violet Hold difficult can kill him.
    Last edited by klogaroth; 2014-01-12 at 10:59 PM.

  4. #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alandalus View Post
    WoW (particularly the endgame dungeons/raids) is primarily about loot. If they drop the exact same loot then why even have a higher difficulty level? No one would do them.
    Quote Originally Posted by cFortyfive View Post
    Even better - put a chest in each capital with all the loots you want and remove all other content. Problem solved earnings maximized.
    People always reduce the argument to "why not just click on the mailbox for your loot."

    On the one hand, it makes (profoundly good) sense for more challenging content to give better rewards.

    But on the other hand, let's look at the snag in that, which is that WoW content is much, much easier for players in coordinated groups -- and for many players in WoW, coordinated groups of like-minded people are not that easy to find these days.

    * Creating new guilds with small numbers of close friends is not really a thing any more thanks to "guild perks."
    * You have your choice of high-pop/full realms with continuously scrolling chat spam dominated by idiots (who run in huge packs), or medium-pop realms where you might be able to find 3 people who are fun to be around but never 4, or low-pop realms where you can farm Pandaren rares to your heart's content but you are the only lifeform in the zone
    * You are just not given means to find people of your "ilk" in this game, not by Blizzard, especially if what you want is somewhat restrained, adult behavior

    Given that a randomly assembled group of 5 adventurers probably has a harder time with a normal 5-man than a group of guildies does with a heroic 5-man where the mobs have 2-4x the health and damage, I would be comfortable arguing that solo queued random players should be HUGELY more rewarded than coordinated groups, because content is faceroll for coordinated groups, while it is difficult in many different ways for solo players.

    I might be arguing the wrong side, and I'm not sure I even agree with myself, but the game is so easy for groups that I wonder if they should even be rewarded for playing that way.

  5. #1005
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Subs plateaued when multiple raid modes were added. The elite like to think it was the lower of the two that was to blame. I'm suggesting that's backwards: the presence of the higher difficulty mode was responsible. That design emphasizes to the masses that they aren't going to get into that higher mode (they can barely do the lower one). The more clearly the game tells most of its players they are bad, the more the game loses values to those players.
    And you think that drives away players more than having only one mode that is hard so that they can't raid at all? Because that was BC and subs grew a lot.

  6. #1006
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Given that a randomly assembled group of 5 adventurers probably has a harder time with a normal 5-man than a group of guildies does with a heroic 5-man where the mobs have 2-4x the health and damage, I would be comfortable arguing that solo queued random players should be HUGELY more rewarded than coordinated groups, because content is faceroll for coordinated groups, while it is difficult in many different ways for solo players.
    At least quite an original concept I suppose and somehow fitting the theme of players having a difficult time socializing. Getting punished for playing a multiplayer game with friends instead of strangers found by pressing a button. That's really something and it'd be really entertaining if other developers would go for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by rebecca191 View Post
    And you think that drives away players more than having only one mode that is hard so that they can't raid at all? Because that was BC and subs grew a lot.
    It's naive at best anyways to presume that only specific design decisions lead to lower subscriber numbers on any side of that argument.

  7. #1007
    Pit Lord Anzen's Avatar
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    From a brief read of these forums I'd assumed the figure was about 90% of all players have killed HC Garrosh and that he was way too easy!

  8. #1008
    Elemental Lord Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I did read the first line I just wondered where you were going with your posts. It appears to be yet another post about the lowly casuals wanting instant gratification whilst heroic raiders are above such petty nonsense.

    It is laughable to suggest that WOW is not all about gear, no-one would run the content on offer multiple times if it was not for gear.
    In reference to a previous post of yours - every good game is a skinner box. That's what gaming is built on. It is not an insult to WoW no matter how much you try to make it one.

    Secondly, look at all the content in WoW that offers 0 gear upgrade and is still run. There's your argument gone in one. WoW is NOT all about gear, people DO run content multiple times with no gear upgrade.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  9. #1009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    In reference to a previous post of yours - every good game is a skinner box. That's what gaming is built on. It is not an insult to WoW no matter how much you try to make it one.

    Secondly, look at all the content in WoW that offers 0 gear upgrade and is still run. There's your argument gone in one. WoW is NOT all about gear, people DO run content multiple times with no gear upgrade.
    It's impressive how many people will do things simply for achievement points or titles, and how difficulty or grindy or both some of those things are.

  10. #1010
    Herald of the Titans Duridi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I did read the first line I just wondered where you were going with your posts. It appears to be yet another post about the lowly casuals wanting instant gratification whilst heroic raiders are above such petty nonsense.

    It is laughable to suggest that WOW is not all about gear, no-one would run the content on offer multiple times if it was not for gear.
    You are generalizing, and I honestly do not see the connection between Klogaroth's post and your reply. You seem to be reading what you want to read.

    It is not a fact that everyone raids, or do anything in this game, because of gear. Gear is a huge factor in this game, as it's used as reward in pretty much every aspect of the game. It is also a tool which will help you defeat more challenging content. This does not mean it's the only thing that drives people into playing. People get different satisfaction from playing, and some will not give a rats ass about gear, while others will be the exact oposite. Then you have those in between. That's just how it is. Saying everyone plays to get gear, is stupid and narrowminded.

    I am an ex raider, and I have never cared for gear. I raided to prove to myself that I could beat challenging encounters, and I raided because I found the teamwork required from organised raiding at a more challenging level, thrilling. I also liked the mechanics and my role in the raid. It was fun, and it offered me gameplay I could not obtain solo. The gear was nothing more than a tool, helping my team progress quicker, or beat something we could not beat without it. I enjoyed optimizing my gear too, but this came with TBC and had nothing to do with obtaining gear. It was about utilizing what I already had equipped, comparing and mixing stats. In vanilla, I didn't understand gear very well, because the rest of the game was more appealing.

    You are basicly telling me I don't exist, but I am sorry. I just don't find gear a motivator.

  11. #1011
    The Patient Dungeonravor's Avatar
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    Cool fight, glad I have been able to kill him

    Do I smell hate aroma?!?

  12. #1012
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    In reference to a previous post of yours - every good game is a skinner box. That's what gaming is built on. It is not an insult to WoW no matter how much you try to make it one.

    Secondly, look at all the content in WoW that offers 0 gear upgrade and is still run. There's your argument gone in one. WoW is NOT all about gear, people DO run content multiple times with no gear upgrade.
    That is subject for debate. I am not sure why you a) think that I am trying to insult WOW by mentioning MMOs not just WOW are skinner boxes and b) think that as inanimate product WOW would take offense.

    The subject of the thread is about raids therefore I would have though the context of my comment would be obviously be in regards to raiding. Typical behaviour is that guilds run raids until either most of their raiders have all or close to all the gear they need at which point activity will decline or they run it until the next tier is released and they abandon the current one. There will undoubtedly be people that run content for reasons other than gear but as a whole it is primary motivator at max level. I don't know why you think this is a bad thing.

  13. #1013
    Elemental Lord Raiju's Avatar
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    I don't know why you're bringing it up if it is a) not used for any point and b) not true for the whole playerbase

    That makes it both incorrect and irrelevant..
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  14. #1014
    Quote Originally Posted by Duridi View Post
    You are generalizing, and I honestly do not see the connection between Klogaroth's post and your reply. You seem to be reading what you want to read.

    It is not a fact that everyone raids, or do anything in this game, because of gear. Gear is a huge factor in this game, as it's used as reward in pretty much every aspect of the game. It is also a tool which will help you defeat more challenging content. This does not mean it's the only thing that drives people into playing. People get different satisfaction from playing, and some will not give a rats ass about gear, while others will be the exact oposite. Then you have those in between. That's just how it is. Saying everyone plays to get gear, is stupid and narrowminded.

    I am an ex raider, and I have never cared for gear. I raided to prove to myself that I could beat challenging encounters, and I raided because I found the teamwork required from organised raiding at a more challenging level, thrilling. I also liked the mechanics and my role in the raid. It was fun, and it offered me gameplay I could not obtain solo. The gear was nothing more than a tool, helping my team progress quicker, or beat something we could not beat without it. I enjoyed optimizing my gear too, but this came with TBC and had nothing to do with obtaining gear. It was about utilizing what I already had equipped, comparing and mixing stats. In vanilla, I didn't understand gear very well, because the rest of the game was more appealing.

    You are basicly telling me I don't exist, but I am sorry. I just don't find gear a motivator.
    If raiders only raid for the challenge then why once they have beaten the challenge do they need to run the content again? If the gear rewards were removed from raiding it would die within weeks.

    Achievements are without doubt a factor but players were repeating raids multiple times in Classic and TBC before their introduction which leads us to the common factor throughout WOW's lifetime - gear. You may point to rep but increasing reputations, when current, once again lead to rewards that are either actual gear or increase the power of player's gear through enchants or gems. Once you boil everything down the majority of max level activities offer rewards that either directly award gear, allow extra ways to acquire gear or increase the power of a player's existing gear. Even pet battles, one of the most casual in activities, awards charms thats only use is to turn in for extra rolls for gear.

    There is nothing wrong with wanting to improve your character and the primary way of doing so in WOW is through gear.

  15. #1015
    Elemental Lord Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    If raiders only raid for the challenge then why once they have beaten the challenge do they need to run the content again? If the gear rewards were removed from raiding it would die within weeks.

    Achievements are without doubt a factor but players were repeating raids multiple times in Classic and TBC before their introduction which leads us to the common factor throughout WOW's lifetime - gear. You may point to rep but increasing reputations, when current, once again lead to rewards that are either actual gear or increase the power of player's gear through enchants or gems. Once you boil everything down the majority of max level activities offer rewards that either directly award gear, allow extra ways to acquire gear or increase the power of a player's existing gear. Even pet battles, one of the most casual in activities, awards charms thats only use is to turn in for extra rolls for gear.

    There is nothing wrong with wanting to improve your character and the primary way of doing so in WOW is through gear.
    I have almost 10000 charms. I am not doing pet battles for gear.

    You also seem to completely ignore (or not able to comprehend) the social element of raiding, which for many is the *main* reason to raid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  16. #1016
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    I don't think this difficulty curve is very good, and I think the reasons are obvious.

    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
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  17. #1017
    Elemental Lord Raiju's Avatar
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    The only bad thing about that curve is that flex dips off before normal, imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  18. #1018
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    The only bad thing about that curve is that flex dips off before normal, imo.
    Why? Hardest boss in Flex being more difficult than easiest boss on normal is nothing strange. It would be pretty much the same in Heroic, except you "need" to kill normal Garrosh before getting access to it.

  19. #1019
    Elemental Lord Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Why? Hardest boss in Flex being more difficult than easiest boss on normal is nothing strange. It would be pretty much the same in Heroic, except you "need" to kill normal Garrosh before getting access to it.
    The entirety of parts 3 and 4 is not the last boss, it's nearly half the instance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  20. #1020
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    I have almost 10000 charms. I am not doing pet battles for gear.

    You also seem to completely ignore (or not able to comprehend) the social element of raiding, which for many is the *main* reason to raid.
    You have the passed the point at which charms are useful but it is undeniable that pet battles award charms and the only use for them is for extra rolls which in turn give a chance at gaining gear. Therefore even a casual activity has rewards that lead to gear.

    I would have thought that the social aspect of being in a guild and that it is enjoyable to perform activities as a guild was a given. It still does not change the fact most guilds will abandon a raid and rarely go back to it as soon as a new tier is released.

    There is nothing wrong with raiding for gear I honestly don't see why you are trying to prove otherwise.

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