View Poll Results: 4 months out, how many players should've been able to defeat H Garrosh?

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  • <.25%

    524 32.27%
  • <2%

    545 33.56%
  • <5%

    266 16.38%
  • <10%

    136 8.37%
  • >10%

    153 9.42%
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  1. #1201
    Stood in the Fire Paarthurnax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    A statement "X is less dumb than Y" does not itself imply either X or Y is needed.

    But let's address this issue.

    I've been proposing that the presence of more difficult content degrades the game experience of those only using the lesser content. I've pointed out a number of ways this could happen. If that is correct, then it could be the case that chopping off the most difficult content could actually improve the game's retention. Bored high end raiders would be pissed off and leave, but (under this scenario) retention at lower skill levels would be improved.

    The presumption that no one needs to be pissed off is the presumption that the game can be all things to all people. I am skeptical that can be true.
    How exactly does killing off heroic raiding improve casual players retention?

    “Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.”
    --Littlefinger

  2. #1202
    Quote Originally Posted by Paarthurnax View Post
    How exactly does killing off heroic raiding improve casual players retention?
    They wont feel bad that good players look at them as being worse at the game? I dont know.

  3. #1203
    Quote Originally Posted by Paarthurnax View Post
    How exactly does killing off heroic raiding improve casual players retention?
    Mostly, it enables lesser players to retain the illusion they don't suck, compared to the high skill players.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  4. #1204
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Not making your playerbase happy doesnt help you be a strong business. Nor a long lasting one. Blizzard could easily run another 5-6 years but they would need to drop the dead weight and stop trying to please everybody. A smaller dedicated playerbase is better than a large one dying out in a quarter of the time.
    Losing a quarter of your customers in a year is a pretty strong indicator that your business is not making its customers happy. If losses continue at the present rate WOW is gone in three years. Raiding is the dead weight at the moment, they either have to expend more resources on creating casual friendly content or reallocate resources that are currently spent on making raids.

  5. #1205
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Mostly, it enables lesser players to retain the illusion they don't suck, compared to the high skill players.
    This implies that lesser players even care about that in the first place. As long as lesser players are experiencing consistent, steady progression, why should they care that they suck?

  6. #1206
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    When people are concentrating on their enjoyment at the expense the financial performance of their employer they get fired.

    He is talking about developers that place fun ahead of being productive in their work, this is no different from most work places where employees are expected to earn their money rather than mess around with their friends. Based on the immaturity of your comment about Kotick I guess you are in for a very rude awakening.
    You can assume all you want ass. I am very successful at my job and I have fun doing it. I lead a team of developers and I do it very well. Why is it immature to want people who make games to not be money grubbing whores.

  7. #1207
    WoW would be a better game for more people if they didn't bother with heroic raid content. If they spent that effort on something more people would use they would retain more subs.

    Nothing wrong with having difficult content, but the numbers are too lopsided on this. It's hard for heroic raiders to hear the truth because they usually consider themselves to be more important. It's never fun to hear that other people matter more than you do.
    Last edited by Blur4stuff; 2014-01-13 at 09:05 PM.

  8. #1208
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Mostly, it enables lesser players to retain the illusion they don't suck, compared to the high skill players.
    This relies on the highly questionable idea that every player in sub-heroic content actively wants to participate in that content to begin with.

    Should we get rid of gladiator mounts too? Even fewer people attain those. Maybe MMOC should run stats on how many players have acquired all sorts of rarities in game, there's even more dev hours to be streamlined by removing these things.
    "Look around you. We're all liars here, and every one of us is better than you" - PB

  9. #1209
    Stood in the Fire Paarthurnax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Mostly, it enables lesser players to retain the illusion they don't suck, compared to the high skill players.
    That line of thinking is bullshit, and it makes me think you don't even play this game anymore. Or at least you have some sick love/hate relationship with it still. The game used to be hard, very hard actually and it thrived then. People had to make the choice of either getting better to see/experience the content or missing out, most people rose to the occasion in some degree and the game benefited from an educated player base that didn't expect content to be spoon fed to them. The game also had a grand sense of wonder and a real sense of journey to it, when you had to WORK to see results. People WANTED to be that rogue sitting in Shatt with dual warglaives or those fully t6 decked out bad-asses with fancy mounts/titles.

    Now that players can hit 90 in 2-3 weeks of leveling then spend a few days doing 5 mans/isle stuff and then go kill Garrosh and effectively see all the content there is to see in the game. What motivation do new players have to try harder? get better at the game? attempt to raid normal or heroic content? Is there even anything telling them they are doing things right or wrong?

    The answer is there is none, they maybe give pvp a try, level alts, keep clearing LFR for upgrades, maybe do flex a bit then just unsub and wait for new content once they have had their fill.

    “Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.”
    --Littlefinger

  10. #1210
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    This relies on the highly questionable idea that every player in sub-heroic content actively wants to participate in that content to begin with.

    Should we get rid of gladiator mounts too? Even fewer people attain those. Maybe MMOC should run stats on how many players have acquired all sorts of rarities in game, there's even more dev hours to be streamlined by removing these things.
    Hey, atm Gladiator is less prestigious than H Garrosh

  11. #1211
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    You can assume all you want ass. I am very successful at my job and I have fun doing it. I lead a team of developers and I do it very well. Why is it immature to want people who make games to not be money grubbing whores.
    I guess you have no issue with your team spending time having fun rather than working? Yes, mature adults often wish painful deaths on others.

  12. #1212
    Quote Originally Posted by Blur4stuff View Post
    WoW would be a better game for more people if they didn't bother with heroic raid content. If they spent that effort on something more people would use they would retain more subs.

    Nothing wrong with having difficult content, but the numbers are too lopsided on this. It's hard for heroic raiders to hear the truth because they usually consider themselves to be more important. It's never fun to hear that other people matter more than you do.
    Making the peak of content in the game LFR difficulty would make it better? No. It would make a lot of faceroll easy content that is done in a day.

  13. #1213
    The Lightbringer Aeula's Avatar
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    Heroic raiding dosn't really interest me, it's alot more effort for gear that's only slightly better, i can pretty much solo any content pre cata, i don't need more gear, so i have no reason to do heroic raiding.

  14. #1214
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I guess you have no issue with your team spending time having fun rather than working? Yes, mature adults often wish painful deaths on others.
    Working does not have to exclude having fun. Work can be fun. I feel sorry for you if you do not have fun at your job. That must suck.

  15. #1215
    Quote Originally Posted by Paarthurnax View Post
    That line of thinking is bullshit, and it makes me think you don't even play this game anymore. Or at least you have some sick love/hate relationship with it still. The game used to be hard, very hard actually and it thrived then. People had to make the choice of either getting better to see/experience the content or missing out, most people rose to the occasion in some degree and the game benefited from an educated player base that didn't expect content to be spoon fed to them. The game also had a grand sense of wonder and a real sense of journey to it, when you had to WORK to see results. People WANTED to be that rogue sitting in Shatt with dual warglaives or those fully t6 decked out bad-asses with fancy mounts/titles.
    If people were so intent on being that rogue why are we not seeing high levels of raid participation in this or any previous expansion? The reality is that the majority of players did not even notice that rogue.

  16. #1216
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Working does not have to exclude having fun. Work can be fun. I feel sorry for you if you do not have fun at your job. That must suck.
    I've heard happy workers produce better. I dunno if it's true, but it sounds nice =P
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrandir View Post
    My starfall brings all the mobs to the yard.
    Laurellen - Druid Smiteyou - lol holy dps

  17. #1217
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Working does not have to exclude having fun. Work can be fun. I feel sorry for you if you do not have fun at your job. That must suck.
    Agreed it does not but fun should not be the primary focus at work which is what Kotick was saying and that caused you to go off on your very bizarre and completely inappropriate rant about how he should die a painful death. You do realise that people have found themselves before a court for making such remarks?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by gamingmuscle View Post
    I've heard happy workers produce better. I dunno if it's true, but it sounds nice =P
    They must have been fucking miserable when they made the Timeless Isle.

  18. #1218
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfNone View Post
    Shoe fits. Don't bitch about something giving an impression of yourself then turn around and try to play the neutral. You come across ignorant enough as it is.
    Considering your baseless labeling, I find this statement ironic as shit.

    Bitching about game quality being disposed of in favor of accessibility does nothing to imply an elitest attitude. Your assumption is pure shit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    If people were so intent on being that rogue why are we not seeing high levels of raid participation in this or any previous expansion? The reality is that the majority of players did not even notice that rogue.
    Because the environment that Paarthurnax spoke of is in the realm of yesteryear.

  19. #1219
    Quote Originally Posted by gamingmuscle View Post
    I honestly cannot understand how people don't think blizzard is trying to produce the best game they can. They take their time with everything. They are painfully slow, and not just iterating quickly for cash grabs like the CoD and similar titles. You may not like their choices, and in your mind their products may not be good as they once were. But that is different. Something can be well made, and not well received.
    Wasn't my point at all. I'm saying they are a business. Subs first game second. If something gets in the way of subs, you can bet your bottom dollar it will be changed or something new will come out to appease the masses to bring the subs back. Are they ever going to get back to where they were? Probably not. It's not impossible just not likely. I think a lot of people got tired of the game for whatever reason and just left. They had their day in the sun. I think it could have lasted longer with some key changes, but hey nobody expected it to realistically get as enormous as it did. So overall from a business perspective they did good. From a players perspective I think they did good. Is it the best? No but it's sufficient and far better than most other games.

  20. #1220
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Agreed it does not but fun should not be the primary focus at work which is what Kotick was saying and that caused you to go off on your very bizarre and completely inappropriate rant about how he should die a painful death. You do realise that people have found themselves before a court for making such remarks?
    Kotick said, "...was to take all the fun out of making video games." ALL. ALL. This man cares nothing for the culture of gaming. All he cares about is can he get your money. If he could do that by selling you a steaming pile of shit, he would.

    As for wishing people a painful death. Yes, there are many people that I think make the world a shitier place to live. I would be very happy if they were removed from this world and even better if it was not a nice exit.

    Also, not threatening here. Having fond thoughts about someone getting their due is not illegal. If making that comment about Kotick would get you in trouble, half the gaming internet would be in trouble.

    Anyway, I've drug this way too OT. I just think that the more the developers can subvert Koticks wishes the better.
    Last edited by cabyio; 2014-01-13 at 09:33 PM.

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