0.23% of Players Defeated Heroic Garrosh

[CheeseSandwich]

Only there are more people raiding now than ever. Most of them in LFR, granted, but still more than ever. So I find it hard to say time spent on raiding development is "wasted".

People are complaining the most about Heroics here, which is ridiculous, the most time spent on development is building the raid itself. Heroic development is mostly the tuning, which is admitedly a bigger time than it takes for other difficulties, but still not as much as the design of the place itself.

If you can make content for a portion of your playerbase with just a bit more effort, why simply discard it?

I agree mate, people raid, the problem is getting them to go on with raiding from LFR to ANYTHING, and use it as a means to progress their character. People are sick of the carrot, by the majority, it seems.

In my honest opinion, Hard mode raiding isn't the problem here, it needs to be there, I think it should be totally discarded from this conversation in regards to dev time for worth. It's the lack on incentive that Blizz has provided for wanting to go on. Why bother? Seen it, killed it. This is also not an slant on LFR either, cuz at the time it was implemented, it was needed, and to an extent it is needed now.

Maybe they should design raids by lfr and scale up (although i KNOW this would be horrible), but it would enable them to make 'harder' encounters for that level, while still being able to progress evenly. The thought makes me shudder, but if Blizz wants to make raids the focal point, maybe that is a suggestion to do so.

Wouldn't be opposed to 1 extra mythic boss per tier either, with a budget in mind, to reward those more dedicated players.

[cabyio]

Players are customers, and can do whatever they damn well please. If enough customers can't be bothered to improve and leave the game, the game has failed as a commercial product. Making sure the players don't do this is entirely the responsibility of the developers. It is not the responsibility of any customer to save the game design by adapting themselves to what it demands.

Now, any individual customer will have very little effect on the success or failure of the game. So developers aren't going to listen to individual whining. The collective response of the player population is another story.

Your error here stems from not distiguishing the individual and collective responses.

But you are always looking at the situation as WoW being a product (which it is) but it is also a game. As a player I do want the games I play to be comercially successful, however not at the cost of the things I like about the game. I realize that for blizzard it is a pure money making endevour (although I would like to think that's not the case for at least some of the devs). It is crazy for a player to view the game the same way the creator of it does. For a player it should be about what they enjoy in the game. Why would they ever want the game to do things that take away items they enjoy? You always seem very confused that players would want things that are against what is best for the game. Why should they? They want what is best for them. The financial success of the game has no bearing on them if it comes at the cost of the things they enjoy about the game.

[melodramocracy]

If people can't be bothered to get better, and as a result don't enjoy themselves and enough leave the game, that most definitely is the game's problem. More specifically; it's a problem for the devs designing the game. The bottom line doesn't care why people quit.

This implies that all well designed games are for all people, which they aren't. Multiplayer games especially will take the concept of 'not getting better yet still enjoying yourself' and throw it right out the window, since your main adversary or competition tends to be another human (many of whom might be better than you). In these cases, not bothering to improve as a player means simply being fodder, regardless of the quality of the game itself.

MMO's aren't for everyone to begin with, and thinking that one title can and should be (and designing with that in mind) is the definition of a losing proposition.

[Osmeric]

This implies that all well designed games are for all people, which they aren't.

It implies no such thing. The game's success is governed by how many customers it satisfies, and how much they pay, not by whether it satisfies 100% of the customers.

[Pann]

But you are always looking at the situation as WoW being a product (which it is) but it is also a game. As a player I do want the games I play to be comercially successful, however not at the cost of the things I like about the game. I realize that for blizzard it is a pure money making endevour (although I would like to think that's not the case for at least some of the devs). It is crazy for a player to view the game the same way the creator of it does. For a player it should be about what they enjoy in the game. Why would they ever want the game to do things that take away items they enjoy? You always seem very confused that players would want things that are against what is best for the game. Why should they? They want what is best for them. The financial success of the game has no bearing on them if it comes at the cost of the things they enjoy about the game.

Your point is based on the assumption that what you want is good for the game and that the majority of players share your view. Clearly this is not case, as you say players want what is best for them and for the most part they do not want to raid and Blizzard's attempts to funnel players into raiding has resulted in the worst sub losses in the game's history.

[gamingmuscle]

Your point is based on the assumption that what you want is good for the game and that the majority of players share your view. Clearly this is not case, as you say players want what is best for them and for the most part they do not want to raid and Blizzard's attempts to funnel players into raiding has resulted in the worst sub losses in the game's history.

You are speculating.

[chrisorie4]

Weren't people complaining for years that heroics weren't hard enough ;o? Isn't this what you've always wanted?

[Madruga]

Weren't people complaining for years that heroics weren't hard enough ;o? Isn't this what you've always wanted?

Actually, this is so true. And now the main theme here in this thread is "Too hard is bad".

Show how fast people's opinion change. Or, at least, how much attention can a vocal group bring in the forums.

[Osmeric]

Weren't people complaining for years that heroics weren't hard enough ;o? Isn't this what you've always wanted?

Weren't people saying for years that forum comments are highly unrepresentative of the player population as a whole?

[cabyio]

Your point is based on the assumption that what you want is good for the game and that the majority of players share your view. Clearly this is not case, as you say players want what is best for them and for the most part they do not want to raid and Blizzard's attempts to funnel players into raiding has resulted in the worst sub losses in the game's history.

No, but it is beneficial to try to convince people that alot of people want what you want, even if that is not the case. Who gives a shit about everyone else. You want what is good for you if you are a rational person. Why would you want the game to change to something that you hate, even if the majority like it the new way?

-----------

Do I think it would be more popular if it was dumbed down and shifted away from raiding? I honestly don't know. But even if somehow I knew that it would be.... why would I want it to be? It would be a more popular version of a game that I now hate. It makes no sense for someone to want that.

[CheeseSandwich]

Well I can either assume I spoke gibberish, or i was that spot on people chose to ignore me. Either way I'll let you guys have at it. Have fun!

[Osmeric]

No, but it is beneficial to try to convince people that alot of people want what you want, even if that is not the case.

For example: people who say that heroic (soon mythic) raid modes are important, even when most players never touch them and very few ever complete them.

[xindralol]

heroic should be *hard* ...
if about 20% of players raid regularly, and about 3% are actually good, of those, maybe 1/3 (=1%) care enough to raid more often, about .25% are not restrained by retarded raid-mates (funny word, I know), so they're actually able to clear heroic modes consistently. I think that's about right. good to see at least some part of wow is still tough.

[Giscoicus]

Indeed I agree, I just disagree with the standpoint people use that "players should get better or fuck off", that's an awful business idea.

Its more of a 'if you cant get better then accept you will be limited in what you can do" making there be NOTHING that is only accessible by being good is a bad idea.

Currently, things that require significant skill are:

Ra-den
Sha covered Stormwind in Garrosh heroic fight.

Crap players should not expect to stay crap and experience everything, and 2 tiny tiny things are not much for content that requires you to not suck. Even brawlers rank 8+ zone is a joke with 536 LFR gear making it absolute faceroll for anybody. It used to be that those who sucked would not see Archimode, would not see Yogg's prison, would not see Nefarian or see the inside of the black temple or Sinestra. Now? they expect to see absolutely everything, and there are players who even complained about not having Ra-Den in LFR.

If you are crap you should expect to be limited in what you will be able to be part of. Somehow that doesnt make sense to the current playerbase by and large

[DeadmanWalking]

Its more of a 'if you cant get better then accept you will be limited in what you can do" making there be NOTHING that is only accessible by being good is a bad idea.

Currently, things that require significant skill are:

Ra-den
Sha covered Stormwind in Garrosh heroic fight.

Crap players should not expect to stay crap and experience everything, and 2 tiny tiny things are not much for content that requires you to not suck. Even brawlers rank 8+ zone is a joke with 536 LFR gear making it absolute faceroll for anybody. It used to be that those who sucked would not see Archimode, would not see Yogg's prison, would not see Nefarian or see the inside of the black temple or Sinestra. Now? they expect to see absolutely everything, and there are players who even complained about not having Ra-Den in LFR.

If you are crap you should expect to be limited in what you will be able to be part of. Somehow that doesnt make sense to the current playerbase by and large

I whole heartedly disagree. Being good at warcraft does not entitle you to be the only ones who see the content. You get better rewards in terms of performance and raid mounts that your casual will never achieve.

If it were not for LFR in Cataclysm and experiencing Deathwing and raid content I would of quit the game because dungeons just won’t hold me in this game. I’m a casual gamer with one good night a week, the hour a day LFR worked out nicely for me and showed me there was more to the game than a boss with one mechanic. Since then I have joined a raid guild, became top DPS by a long shot, became raid leader, introduced my rl wow friends to LFR to see if they liked the environment and when they loved it I moved them into my Raiding guild to fill out our group, two of those friends moved on to a hardcore raiding guild and none of that would of happened had I not experienced the content in LFR. I would of quit after running the same cata dungeon a dozen times.

Being able to do the content is its own reward, you don’t need a sign sticking out of your ass that says, ‘Elite’ on it or a special vip room to feel better than the common ‘rabble’. Congratulations, you are great at warcraft, don’t expect anyone to bow down and kiss your boots because its not quite as awesome as you like to believe it is.

[Palinn]

I think the more interesting question based on these numbers is.. how do they relate to how many people clearned pve content in previous expansionsl? I seem to remember the number 1% for Sunwell - I could be wrong, I don't have time to google atm.

Either way, the correlation between these percentages from the past/now gives us an indication of how much raiding is dying out/thriving in WOW.

[Pann]

Its more of a 'if you cant get better then accept you will be limited in what you can do" making there be NOTHING that is only accessible by being good is a bad idea.

Currently, things that require significant skill are:

Ra-den
Sha covered Stormwind in Garrosh heroic fight.

Crap players should not expect to stay crap and experience everything, and 2 tiny tiny things are not much for content that requires you to not suck. Even brawlers rank 8+ zone is a joke with 536 LFR gear making it absolute faceroll for anybody. It used to be that those who sucked would not see Archimode, would not see Yogg's prison, would not see Nefarian or see the inside of the black temple or Sinestra. Now? they expect to see absolutely everything, and there are players who even complained about not having Ra-Den in LFR.

If you are crap you should expect to be limited in what you will be able to be part of. Somehow that doesnt make sense to the current playerbase by and large

I think it is quite clear from the low number of players that raid or have raided throughout the history of WOW that the majority of players are simply not interested in seeing all things you claim they want to.

By the same token good players should not expect crap players to hang around if their experiences are limited.

If your numbers are limited you should expect the content that is made exclusively for you to be limited. Somehow that doesn't make sense to many of current raiding playerbase.

[Giscoicus]

I whole heartedly disagree. Being good at warcraft does not entitle you to be the only ones who see the content. You get better rewards in terms of performance and raid mounts that your casual will never achieve.

If it were not for LFR in Cataclysm and experiencing Deathwing and raid content I would of quit the game because dungeons just won’t hold me in this game. I’m a casual gamer with one good night a week, the hour a day LFR worked out nicely for me and showed me there was more to the game than a boss with one mechanic. Since then I have joined a raid guild, became top DPS by a long shot, became raid leader, introduced my rl wow friends to LFR to see if they liked the environment and when they loved it I moved them into my Raiding guild to fill out our group, two of those friends moved on to a hardcore raiding guild and none of that would of happened had I not experienced the content in LFR. I would of quit after running the same cata dungeon a dozen times.

Being able to do the content is its own reward, you don’t need a sign sticking out of your ass that says, ‘Elite’ on it or a special vip room to feel better than the common ‘rabble’. Congratulations, you are great at warcraft, don’t expect anyone to bow down and kiss your boots because its not quite as awesome as you like to believe it is.

When LFR outdoes past tier full normal gear, then the rewards are not really better are they? Everything is earnable later on, so again how are the mounts a real reward? Aside from the Warwolf, every mount has been a joke to obtain a year later. How does it not make sense to have stuff gated by skill? If you want in to this building, you have to be able to kill this boss. The boss isnt a pushover so not everybody will get inside.

How you can even suggest LFR is close to even Flex as an experience is beyond me. LFR bosses hardly have a relevant mechanic, some don't even have that.

Absolutely ANYBODY can do the content. it would feel special to know 'hey, I am one of the players actually capable of downing more than fallen protectors". I'm not saying for people to kiss the ground I walk on, I'm saying that those who aren't bad should be separate from those who are good. Those who are crap shouldn't be walking around in current tier sets or have the best item currently in game. Bad players should be able to do what they can, and get better to do more. Its ridiculous that you can do everything in game without getting better, because believe it or not, putting green text on an item doesnt change the fact that its a tier piece.

[DeadmanWalking]

When LFR outdoes past tier full normal gear, then the rewards are not really better are they? Everything is earnable later on, so again how are the mounts a real reward? Aside from the Warwolf, every mount has been a joke to obtain a year later. How does it not make sense to have stuff gated by skill? If you want in to this building, you have to be able to kill this boss. The boss isnt a pushover so not everybody will get inside.

How you can even suggest LFR is close to even Flex as an experience is beyond me. LFR bosses hardly have a relevant mechanic, some don't even have that.

Absolutely ANYBODY can do the content. it would feel special to know 'hey, I am one of the players actually capable of downing more than fallen protectors". I'm not saying for people to kiss the ground I walk on, I'm saying that those who aren't bad should be separate from those who are good. Those who are crap shouldn't be walking around in current tier sets or have the best item currently in game. Bad players should be able to do what they can, and get better to do more. Its ridiculous that you can do everything in game without getting better, because believe it or not, putting green text on an item doesnt change the fact that its a tier piece.

LFR has several mechanics and redeeming qualities, just because you don’t want to acknowledge them because they dont help your argument is not our problem. For example in the first boss of HoF we were wiping continuously because a few of our members had trouble understanding the disks of attunement spiral. By the end of the night I required everyone go into LFR and practice the spiral so our next raid night wasn’t wasted. These people did it and the next night we one shot the boss without wipes. LFR may remove a mechanic here or there or lighten the effects of them but thats a product of an unorganized random group of people of random skill level. LFR also gives you an environment where you experience the basics of a fight so when you go into normal you are not surprised by the new fight so you can focus on the fight rather than the sights and sounds that are new to you. Every night before raid I pull out my main and I run an LFR just to sharpen my muscle memory for the raid that night since I play alts. LFR has many redeeming qualities.

I’ll also note that Flex only started in SoO and has no bearing on what transpired in Cata or HoF.

Being elite at warcraft does not entiitle you to recognition or access to content. Sorry, but you will just have to get over it cause LFR is hard baked into WoD.

[Thandorr]

Are people really so offended that Blizz creates content for those who will meet the requirements to complete it? People comment and say it isn't fair to gate the content according to skill, but can you imagine what would happen if it was all wide open? If heroic wasn't significantly harder then there would be no point to continue to progress. Do casuals want heroic gear and rewards to be obtainable for doing nothing or in spite of lack of skill? Would it be ok for someone who is currently unskilled enough to complete normals to be able to complete heroics? Just how easy would you have it be? I imagine that there would never be a difficult nerf so great to appease the casual masses. Until Blizz starts sending in-game mail with heroic warforged loot just for logging in today, some may not be satisfied. [obvious hyperbole included]