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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    Who would ever want stam? WHat are you tanking LFR? Do you realize how little DPS gain strength is for Prot warriors?

    Safeguard is useless while you are tanking? How is vigilance useful while you are tanking?
    I'm sorry but I'm with Gliff on this one. Safeguard while tanking is absolutely fantastic. The ability to keep a near-constant damage reduction on your co-tank as well as being able to get some tasty vengeance. Add to the that the odds that this could very well keep your riposte rolling, especially if you're not getting hit by the boss at that time. Vigiliance has it's place, but it's very limited to fights if you are really min/maxing here.

  2. #22
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    Who would ever want stam? WHat are you tanking LFR? Do you realize how little DPS gain strength is for Prot warriors?

    Safeguard is useless while you are tanking? How is vigilance useful while you are tanking?
    First of all, you may stick your unprofessional attitude up a place where no sun shines.
    That being said, I would want you to re-read your own statement. You argue, that strength only provides a small amount of DPS gain for prot warrior. How much DPS gain would the alternative Stamina option bring? I assume that you would respond to that something along the lines of "but stamina adds to the survivability of the warrior", which is in theory true. In praxis however, unless you are the one only tanking lfr, your gear alone should provide enough stamina for all situations you might encounter during heroic raiding. Personally, I sit slightly below the 1 million hp mark without shamans healing me and slightly above with shamans healing me. I found this amount to be sufficient. Also, as assumed, you forgot, that strength actually adds a tiny bit of parry, too.
    Furthermore I´d like to adress your last question. Aside from the fact, that you can throw it on your co-tank in case it is not needed otherwise, it is useful since it doesn´t puts you into the need to intervene to apply. I would like to redirect you to the end of my post, where I go a little bit more into depth about this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xirek View Post
    I'm sorry but I'm with Gliff on this one. Safeguard while tanking is absolutely fantastic. The ability to keep a near-constant damage reduction on your co-tank as well as being able to get some tasty vengeance. Add to the that the odds that this could very well keep your riposte rolling, especially if you're not getting hit by the boss at that time. Vigiliance has it's place, but it's very limited to fights if you are really min/maxing here.
    First of all, no reason for apologies. I appreciate diffrent opnions but I detest rude behaviour over such minor topics. I understand, that a neat-constant damage reduction on your co tank is favorable. The problem is, that it requires you to do nothing else but offtanking while the other tank is active. Also, the argument that it adds to your vengeance and keeps your riposte rolling is invalid, since intervene serves the very same purpose.

    ---

    Now let me elaborate a bit more about my decision between vigilance and safeguard. I´d like to do this for every single boss.

    Immerseus: Tanks do usually not start next to each other since the tank debuff is a frontal cone attack of the boss. While it would be possible to intervene the other tank for the first debuff and leap or run out of the danger zone, the other tank will spend the time after that first debuff with collecting adds. He will not be within range once Safeguard is ready again. Vigilance however can be placed over distance and does, in a case of emergency, not require you to abandon the add you were about to nuke in p2.
    protectors: If you tank Rook, you want to hold him stable to not endager melees or badly placed casters to be hit by his frontal attack. Also, you want to stack him at least with the caster add. If you tank Hee, you do not want him to walk his way across the field while dropping his poison pools. Those two things might change if you use a tactic to stack all three bosses. Nevertheless Vigilance alone proved to be sufficient as a cooldown during Hee´s depserate measures phase, being applied on the player with the mark.
    Norushen: I find Safeguard to be favorable in this case.
    Sha: The time frame between the end of your debuff the application of the next debuff is rather short. Chances are, that you are not in range for aplication during this time frame. Furthermore, I like intervene to get from A to B in this fight, for example to get either faster into the DD/Healer camp during addspawn or to get faster to a random location on the map to soak up a rift. Vigilance is usually thrown on someone who wanted to soak up a far away rift and was so unlucky to be debfufed on midway.
    Galakras: Honestly, the other tank is not even around much. No contest. Also, I like leaping into the new addwave, thunderclap and then intervene a NPC to draw them faster into the AoE zone.
    Juggernaut: I frequently use intervene either to negate falling damage from bombs or to move to the next bomb quicker if they are spread ajar. Also, Vigilance´s duration is enough for the other tank to at least soak two bombs. And you don´t even have to intervene him to apply
    Shamans: Three tank tactic. Vigilance is thrown on debuffed player if he has no personal cooldowns ready or on critical health players for ashes explosion.
    Nazgrim: Usually I am quite busy collecting adds and/or helping to stun/zerg remaining adds. The only time I come close to the active tank is for taunt - and safeguard would be kinda wasted then. I like to throw vigilance on him if he runs out of CDs for execution.
    Malkorok: You simply cannot intervene or safeguard here. Debuff is applied every hit.
    Spoils: The other tank is not in reach. Vigilance can be thrown on cooldown on a player with critical health.
    Thok: One tank tactic. Also, you cannot safeguard random people during p1, since his tank debuff is a frontal cone attack.

    After thok I have no experience in heroic raiding.

    Siegecrafter: the other tank uses to be busy with the add. Also, physical damage ain´t that high -on normal.
    Paragon:I think both abilities are en par. Vigilance is nice if a player happens to be target of a high damage effect, safeguard can usually be applied without many concerns, aside the increased damage of certain klaxxi on you.
    Garrosh: If I offtank during P1, I like putting vigilance on the MT shortly after the first addwave. He´ll aggro them anyway in no time due to high vengeance. The debuff in p2 is applied rather quickly, but I see room for safeguard here. En par I assume.
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I can't believe warriors wine about their defensive capabilities. DK's and warrs are even on heals.

  3. #23
    I roll with vigilance primarily (because I'm lazy to swap) and safeguard for Siegecrafter, we don't have tank death issues at all so most of the time I use it it's on a player somewhere. Paragons of the Klaxxi if your co-tank takes scorpion you can give them vigilance every time he/she mutates because they're both 2 min CD.

    Personally I've noticed while tanking both 10 and 25 heroic that 10 heroic is a lot more unforgiving towards tank damage (not as many healers, etc). I never even watch my health pool dip on 25 as much as I see it on 10 man heroic.
    DarkStorm 25man - http://www.darkstormguild.com
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Valech View Post
    First of all, you may stick your unprofessional attitude up a place where no sun shines.
    That being said, I would want you to re-read your own statement. You argue, that strength only provides a small amount of DPS gain for prot warrior. How much DPS gain would the alternative Stamina option bring? I assume that you would respond to that something along the lines of "but stamina adds to the survivability of the warrior", which is in theory true. In praxis however, unless you are the one only tanking lfr, your gear alone should provide enough stamina for all situations you might encounter during heroic raiding. Personally, I sit slightly below the 1 million hp mark without shamans healing me and slightly above with shamans healing me. I found this amount to be sufficient. Also, as assumed, you forgot, that strength actually adds a tiny bit of parry, too.
    Furthermore I´d like to adress your last question. Aside from the fact, that you can throw it on your co-tank in case it is not needed otherwise, it is useful since it doesn´t puts you into the need to intervene to apply. I would like to redirect you to the end of my post, where I go a little bit more into depth about this one.
    Huh? You thought I was being rude by asking questions to figure out why you are passing along incorrect information?

    Listen, the safeguard v Vigilance thing is a wash. You like 1 prefer the other. Its whatever.

    But you are 100% wrong on the enchants and the fact that you are passing along this incorrect information is something that needs to be clarified. You are wrong. No tank should vever use the DPS enchants unless they are scumbagging.

    It takes like 1300 (+/- some for DR] Strength to get 1% of parry.
    It takes like 1100 (+/- some for DR] dodge to get 1% dodge.
    Warriors gain 2 AP per strength.

    485 Strength + 265 Crit: 970 AP + .3% parry that DOESNT count towards riposte + 265 crit rating

    730 Stam + 265 Dodge: 12.5k HP + .25% dodge + 200 crit rating

    970 AP is literally like nothing for Prot Warriors. Assuming you are at 250k vengeance, which is conservative, that puts you at 300k AP. You 970 AP is less then 1/3 of a % of that attack power.

    I'm sure you will come back and say "730 stam is nothing also" but that is half a flask and 2x a food buff. So let me ask you this, do you use strength food and flask? Because by using the DPS enchants you should, by your logic, be using those also.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Wanna see something ironic about that 12.5K HP you get from the tank enchants?



    Take the Stam ffs.

  5. #25
    Blademaster Manigon's Avatar
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    Just want to add in that Shockwave is a suboptimal tallent for most fights!

  6. #26
    Jesus, Gliff. Do you have a ui package for download anywhere? That is gorgeous!


    Edit: autocorrect
    Last edited by idefiler6; 2014-01-13 at 01:18 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    Jesus, Cliff. Do you have a ui package for download anywhere? That is gorgeous!
    Thanks for the kind words. Gliff UI

  8. #28
    I've had a question about prot, and was going to start a new thread. This tread is about some similar things though so I'll just post it here. So lately I've been noticing that my damage output on fights has actually been getting lower with upgrades. I believe I've reached a point where I'm mitigating a large amount of damage with parry and dodge and as a result my vengeance has been suffering. Does anyone have any recommendations for an avoidance soft cap to resolve this issue.

    This is my armory
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...isoku/advanced

    I've been thinking about perhaps going for Mastery soft cap and going for crit after that, the problem I can see with that is the reduced number of revenge procs. I raid in a 10m alt guild with this toon and we're hoping to start working on Thok soon. Some of the dps are a little undergeared, and I hope to make up for that so the extra damage is actually moderately important.
    In promulgating your esoteric cogitations or articulating your superficial sentimentalities and amicable philosophical or psychological observations, beware of platitudinous panderosity.

  9. #29
    You still gain vengeance from avoided attacks, chances are your damage would suffer further going mastery.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by kai zayin View Post
    I've had a question about prot, and was going to start a new thread. This tread is about some similar things though so I'll just post it here. So lately I've been noticing that my damage output on fights has actually been getting lower with upgrades. I believe I've reached a point where I'm mitigating a large amount of damage with parry and dodge and as a result my vengeance has been suffering. Does anyone have any recommendations for an avoidance soft cap to resolve this issue.

    This is my armory
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...isoku/advanced

    I've been thinking about perhaps going for Mastery soft cap and going for crit after that, the problem I can see with that is the reduced number of revenge procs. I raid in a 10m alt guild with this toon and we're hoping to start working on Thok soon. Some of the dps are a little undergeared, and I hope to make up for that so the extra damage is actually moderately important.
    Vengeance is not effected by the attacks missing/avoided/blocked or reducing the damage by armor/CDs/absorbs.

  11. #31
    Moderator eddytheone's Avatar
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    Well, my advice would be to not condemn or condone any talent instantly at face value. I always run with a fresh stack of 20 tomes to change between fights, I would have to say I tend to favor Vigilance over Safeguard. I guess this is also, in part, due to the fact that I am usually the one tanking things. My personal preference for playstyle is to just use vigilance like a Pain Sup or Sac, to look at the raid frame and if someone needs it I'll just use it. For some fights where you are in a forced tank swap for any duration of time I'll prefer safeguard due to its drastically lower CD and thus higher uptime on the other Tank. Basically, just play it from fight to fight and think what is going to be optimal for your situation, what works for you isn't going to work for everyone

    To the OP as an overall gearing style I would highly, HIGHLY recommend an avoidance build and stick to intelligent play with barriers while maximizing shield block uptime. You will get the optimal DPS out of this gearing while not comprising your survivability at all and this will net you the most asset to your raid

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