That being said, I would want you to re-read your own statement. You argue, that strength only provides a small amount of DPS gain for prot warrior. How much DPS gain would the alternative Stamina option bring? I assume that you would respond to that something along the lines of "but stamina adds to the survivability of the warrior", which is in theory true. In praxis however, unless you are the one only tanking lfr, your gear alone should provide enough stamina for all situations you might encounter during heroic raiding. Personally, I sit slightly below the 1 million hp mark without shamans healing me and slightly above with shamans healing me. I found this amount to be sufficient. Also, as assumed, you forgot, that strength actually adds a tiny bit of parry, too.
Furthermore I´d like to adress your last question. Aside from the fact, that you can throw it on your co-tank in case it is not needed otherwise, it is useful since it doesn´t puts you into the need to intervene to apply. I would like to redirect you to the end of my post, where I go a little bit more into depth about this one.
Now let me elaborate a bit more about my decision between vigilance and safeguard. I´d like to do this for every single boss.
Immerseus: Tanks do usually not start next to each other since the tank debuff is a frontal cone attack of the boss. While it would be possible to intervene the other tank for the first debuff and leap or run out of the danger zone, the other tank will spend the time after that first debuff with collecting adds. He will not be within range once Safeguard is ready again. Vigilance however can be placed over distance and does, in a case of emergency, not require you to abandon the add you were about to nuke in p2.
protectors: If you tank Rook, you want to hold him stable to not endager melees or badly placed casters to be hit by his frontal attack. Also, you want to stack him at least with the caster add. If you tank Hee, you do not want him to walk his way across the field while dropping his poison pools. Those two things might change if you use a tactic to stack all three bosses. Nevertheless Vigilance alone proved to be sufficient as a cooldown during Hee´s depserate measures phase, being applied on the player with the mark.
Norushen: I find Safeguard to be favorable in this case.
Sha: The time frame between the end of your debuff the application of the next debuff is rather short. Chances are, that you are not in range for aplication during this time frame. Furthermore, I like intervene to get from A to B in this fight, for example to get either faster into the DD/Healer camp during addspawn or to get faster to a random location on the map to soak up a rift. Vigilance is usually thrown on someone who wanted to soak up a far away rift and was so unlucky to be debfufed on midway.
Galakras: Honestly, the other tank is not even around much. No contest. Also, I like leaping into the new addwave, thunderclap and then intervene a NPC to draw them faster into the AoE zone.
Juggernaut: I frequently use intervene either to negate falling damage from bombs or to move to the next bomb quicker if they are spread ajar. Also, Vigilance´s duration is enough for the other tank to at least soak two bombs. And you don´t even have to intervene him to apply
Shamans: Three tank tactic. Vigilance is thrown on debuffed player if he has no personal cooldowns ready or on critical health players for ashes explosion.
Nazgrim: Usually I am quite busy collecting adds and/or helping to stun/zerg remaining adds. The only time I come close to the active tank is for taunt - and safeguard would be kinda wasted then. I like to throw vigilance on him if he runs out of CDs for execution.
Malkorok: You simply cannot intervene or safeguard here. Debuff is applied every hit.
Spoils: The other tank is not in reach. Vigilance can be thrown on cooldown on a player with critical health.
Thok: One tank tactic. Also, you cannot safeguard random people during p1, since his tank debuff is a frontal cone attack.
After thok I have no experience in heroic raiding.
Siegecrafter: the other tank uses to be busy with the add. Also, physical damage ain´t that high -on normal.
Paragon:I think both abilities are en par. Vigilance is nice if a player happens to be target of a high damage effect, safeguard can usually be applied without many concerns, aside the increased damage of certain klaxxi on you.
Garrosh: If I offtank during P1, I like putting vigilance on the MT shortly after the first addwave. He´ll aggro them anyway in no time due to high vengeance. The debuff in p2 is applied rather quickly, but I see room for safeguard here. En par I assume.
I roll with vigilance primarily (because I'm lazy to swap) and safeguard for Siegecrafter, we don't have tank death issues at all so most of the time I use it it's on a player somewhere. Paragons of the Klaxxi if your co-tank takes scorpion you can give them vigilance every time he/she mutates because they're both 2 min CD.
Personally I've noticed while tanking both 10 and 25 heroic that 10 heroic is a lot more unforgiving towards tank damage (not as many healers, etc). I never even watch my health pool dip on 25 as much as I see it on 10 man heroic.
Listen, the safeguard v Vigilance thing is a wash. You like 1 prefer the other. Its whatever.
But you are 100% wrong on the enchants and the fact that you are passing along this incorrect information is something that needs to be clarified. You are wrong. No tank should vever use the DPS enchants unless they are scumbagging.
It takes like 1300 (+/- some for DR] Strength to get 1% of parry.
It takes like 1100 (+/- some for DR] dodge to get 1% dodge.
Warriors gain 2 AP per strength.
485 Strength + 265 Crit: 970 AP + .3% parry that DOESNT count towards riposte + 265 crit rating
730 Stam + 265 Dodge: 12.5k HP + .25% dodge + 200 crit rating
970 AP is literally like nothing for Prot Warriors. Assuming you are at 250k vengeance, which is conservative, that puts you at 300k AP. You 970 AP is less then 1/3 of a % of that attack power.
I'm sure you will come back and say "730 stam is nothing also" but that is half a flask and 2x a food buff. So let me ask you this, do you use strength food and flask? Because by using the DPS enchants you should, by your logic, be using those also.
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Wanna see something ironic about that 12.5K HP you get from the tank enchants?
Take the Stam ffs.
Just want to add in that Shockwave is a suboptimal tallent for most fights!
Jesus, Gliff. Do you have a ui package for download anywhere? That is gorgeous!
Last edited by idefiler6; 2014-01-13 at 01:18 AM.
I've had a question about prot, and was going to start a new thread. This tread is about some similar things though so I'll just post it here. So lately I've been noticing that my damage output on fights has actually been getting lower with upgrades. I believe I've reached a point where I'm mitigating a large amount of damage with parry and dodge and as a result my vengeance has been suffering. Does anyone have any recommendations for an avoidance soft cap to resolve this issue.
This is my armory
I've been thinking about perhaps going for Mastery soft cap and going for crit after that, the problem I can see with that is the reduced number of revenge procs. I raid in a 10m alt guild with this toon and we're hoping to start working on Thok soon. Some of the dps are a little undergeared, and I hope to make up for that so the extra damage is actually moderately important.
In promulgating your esoteric cogitations or articulating your superficial sentimentalities and amicable philosophical or psychological observations, beware of platitudinous panderosity.
You still gain vengeance from avoided attacks, chances are your damage would suffer further going mastery.
Well, my advice would be to not condemn or condone any talent instantly at face value. I always run with a fresh stack of 20 tomes to change between fights, I would have to say I tend to favor Vigilance over Safeguard. I guess this is also, in part, due to the fact that I am usually the one tanking things. My personal preference for playstyle is to just use vigilance like a Pain Sup or Sac, to look at the raid frame and if someone needs it I'll just use it. For some fights where you are in a forced tank swap for any duration of time I'll prefer safeguard due to its drastically lower CD and thus higher uptime on the other Tank. Basically, just play it from fight to fight and think what is going to be optimal for your situation, what works for you isn't going to work for everyone
To the OP as an overall gearing style I would highly, HIGHLY recommend an avoidance build and stick to intelligent play with barriers while maximizing shield block uptime. You will get the optimal DPS out of this gearing while not comprising your survivability at all and this will net you the most asset to your raid