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  1. #41
    HoTW: Please give me some big survivability buffs if you want that, and seeing as I play Boomkin right now. I will have almost none left vs KFC, Thug, WMD..and whatever else FOTM Comps people play.
    See, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not saying to -just- remove heart of the wild, it'll have to be done with a lot more nerfs to the crazy burst across the board.

    Shapeshifting: Ugh really? It's a key trait of druids, and they need it. Kiting is something all druid need to learn.
    I don't mind shapeshifting, I just want to limit it to be something a druid considers as a meaningful choice, rather than being a dope for not using their forms on gcd.

    Blink: They removed the Vanish, I think it's fine. IMO.
    It's not really considering it's a powerful escape that can be used while silenced by a resto / boomie.

    Root: Kind of like saying add CD to Poly, Fear, Clone...?
    Yeah. At this point I think adding cooldown to all those things is the easiest solution to CC-bloat.

    Healing: Spamming Rejuv while jumping bothers you.
    It does. Generally I think too many classes now can heal / do what they're supposed to do without having to stop for it, which is a part of the bad arms race design.

    Hunters is where it's the worst. I love all those delusional BMs who think they suddenly got real skilled with MoP, not realizing the depth of how broken the class became by being able to do their thing without ever having to stop.

    Incarnation: Remove a damage CD that we talent for. Ok.
    Just because it's a talent doesn't mean it's not an over the top thing that just adds to the '20 second god, 3 minute useless' playstyle.

    Interupt Immunity: Why do you want to remove that?
    Because while I am all for counterplay, I think some things are just not meant to be countered. Stuff like warrior removing roots, casters being tankier than melee (I'm looking at you, warlocks) and people being able to cast 'in my face' while I can't do a thing about it. What's next? Let's make rogue shiv break interrupt immunity, and then make another thing that makes paladin interrupt immunity undispellable when they wear a dress and dance under the moon.

    It feels wrong, is all.
    Last edited by Saberstrike; 2014-01-12 at 07:23 AM.

  2. #42
    Epic! NuLogic's Avatar
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    This sounds way too boring.

  3. #43
    Wow, just wow, most of those sound so horrible and asinine that I could have swore it was a troll post, but its worse, its real. Catering to pvpers has almost ruined this game already, gone are the days when a pvp match was won not by who had the bigger number, but by who was more skilled. Now pvpers feel like they are just as or more important as pvers and blizzard continues to feed their egos by constantly nerfing pve abilities that you pvp qqers griped about in order to make you happy. So you get to nerf your opponents in your battles to make your epeen seem bigger while we have to deal with unwarranted nerfs in our raids. They need to remove resilience, and differentiate spells between pve and pvp so you can have your diminishing returns and and lessened effects in pvp and we can have our full powered abilities back in pve.

  4. #44
    constantly nerfing pve abilities
    Like how they changed find weakness to 100% in pve (up from 70, but down to 50 in pvp), or made frost mage mastery viable in your precious dragonslaying?

    So nerf. Much clueless. Many epeen loss. WOW!
    Last edited by Saberstrike; 2014-01-12 at 07:32 AM.

  5. #45
    The Patient Robles's Avatar
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    See, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not saying to -just- remove heart of the wild, it'll have to be done with a lot more nerfs to the crazy burst across the board.
    Not sure, I enjoy the variety HoTW throws in, but actually it's not as powerful as people make it out to be. (1v1 it's OP). But that's 1v1.

    In 3v3. HOTW isn't nearly as strong as people say, sure a crazy NS crit for 300k+ One time. Right. But that's not much, kind of like any other CD.

    I don't mind shapeshifting, I just want to limit it to be something a druid considers as a meaningful choice, rather than being a dope for not using their forms on gcd.
    Mmm, what is a meaningful choice? I think as much up time as possible is meaningful. For a Feral not being able to shift roots = damage dropping to retard levels. Remove Savage Roar and you can change root shifting. For Boomkin, not being able to kite slows = Death by any melee (Looking at Rogues/Warriors)




    It's not really considering it's a powerful escape that can be used while silenced by a resto / boomie.
    But it's needed, at least for Boomkin. I've played Boomkin/Feral at 2340exp being my highest.
    Boomkin already die easily as it is, and I know this one ability has saved me more than once.



    Yeah. At this point I think adding cooldown to all those things is the easiest solution to CC-bloat.
    Maybe, but then the game might just might turn into, no one ever getting a kill.

    It does. Generally I think too many classes now can heal / do what they're supposed to do without having to stop for it, which is a part of the bad arms race design.
    Boomkin healing is literally their "Real" defensive. We have Barkskin and Ursoc unless we run with a Warlock.
    I agree healing is getting annoying, but I don't think it should change for Boomkin unless they get more defense.

    Hunters is where it's the worst. I love all those delusional BMs who think they suddenly got real skilled with MoP, not realizing the depth of how broken the class became by being able to do their thing without ever having to stop.
    Hunters are broken, MM more so.


    Just because it's a talent doesn't mean it's not an over the top thing that just adds to the '30 second god, 3 minute useless' playstyle.
    Are you speaking more of Feral incarnation? Sure it's actually retarded as feral, and it's boring. Spamming Ravage? Yea. I enjoy the other 2 choices more honestly, but what would you replace it with?

    Because while I am all for counterplay, I think some things are just not meant to be countered. Stuff like warrior removing roots, casters being tankier than melee (I'm looking at you, warlocks) and people being able to cast 'in my face' while I can't do a thing about it. What's next? Let's make rogue shiv break interrupt immunity, and then make another thing that makes paladin interrupt immunity undispellable when they wear a dress and dance under the moon.

    It feels wrong, is all.
    This is when you LoS, you Stun, or any CC. You can Cloak if you're a rogue every 1 min vs every caster's burst (which is insane, seeing as most CDs are 3min)
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  6. #46
    Pretty ignorant list of things completely disregarding PvE. Not even that good of a list for just PvP. All around poor ideas.

  7. #47
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Might as well just have one class in wow if you are going to remove everything unique.
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  8. #48
    But that's not much, kind of like any other CD.
    That's a really bad argument, just because all cooldowns are stupid doesn't make it okay.

    Mmm, what is a meaningful choice? I think as much up time as possible is meaningful. For a Feral not being able to shift roots = damage dropping to retard levels. Remove Savage Roar and you can change root shifting. For Boomkin, not being able to kite slows = Death by any melee (Looking at Rogues/Warriors)
    All fairness, savage roar is one of the things I forgot. Yeah, it should just be a passive.

    Meaningful choice is when you have to decide if you want to take the root or sacrifice some of your mana to drop it. It's when you know that doing something limits your possibilities, which doesn't generally happen any more because everyone has too much of everything.

    You already mentioned how heart of the wild is op in 1v1 and how 1v1 doesn't matter, which is why you should stick to that point and realize that moonkins, as hybrid hard-casters, are meant to be weak vs melee. You need peels -- or at least that's how it should work.

    But it's needed, at least for Boomkin. I've played Boomkin/Feral at 2340exp being my highest.
    Boomkin already die easily as it is, and I know this one ability has saved me more than once.
    Again, I'm not saying remove your blink / healing and just let warrior keep everything they currently have. Everyone will lose a lot of things they shouldn't have. Boomkin loses blink, warriors lose heroic leap, rogues... Rogues are meant to be a 1v1 terror for casters, so works as intended.

    the game might just might turn into, no one ever getting a kill.
    So now tell me - is it really fun if the only way for someone to die is to turn 3v3 into 3v2 or get lucky with over-the-top numbers during that 20 second all-cooldown god window?

    Are you speaking more of Feral incarnation? Sure it's actually retarded as feral, and it's boring. Spamming Ravage? Yea. I enjoy the other 2 choices more honestly, but what would you replace it with?
    That's a good question. Generally speaking my opinion on the new talent system is that it shouldn't add new super-strong buttons, it should add small playstyle-related things like soul of the forest, as opposed to gamebreaking things like incarnation. The reason no one ever takes soul of the forest is because the other talents in the tier are just so insanely powerful / active.

    This is when you LoS, you Stun, or any CC. You can Cloak if you're a rogue every 1 min vs every caster's burst (which is insane, seeing as most CDs are 3min)
    I could counter with "this is when you fake cast, or you use your own caster cc, you LoS the cloaked rogue and force cloak before your cds" -- etc etc., the argument is just circular and that's why I feel a change is needed.

    ---

    Might as well just have one class in wow if you are going to remove everything unique.
    So what's unique about "stuns a target for 5 seconds, 30s cooldown" or "increases damage by x% for 20 seconds, 3m cooldown"?
    Last edited by Saberstrike; 2014-01-12 at 10:13 AM.

  9. #49
    The Patient Robles's Avatar
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    That's a really bad argument, just because all cooldowns are stupid doesn't make it okay.
    Not all CD's are stupid, but I don't feel HOTW is stupid. I actually don't have a problem with CDs. If you haven't noticed most of the retarded damage isn't from BIG CDS. (Hunters [No CDs still high damage]. Rogue every min with Dance is crazy.

    All fairness, savage roar is one of the things I forgot. Yeah, it should just be a passive.
    ^

    Meaningful choice is when you have to decide if you want to take the root or sacrifice some of your mana to drop it. It's when you know that doing something limits your possibilities, which doesn't generally happen any more because everyone has too much of everything.
    An example?

    You already mentioned how heart of the wild is op in 1v1 and how 1v1 doesn't matter, which is why you should stick to that point and realize that moonkins, as hybrid hard-casters, are meant to be weak vs melee. You need peels -- or at least that's how it should work.
    Even with peels you get wrecked without being able to kite. You obviously have never played/played with a Moonkin at high rating.

    Again, I'm not saying remove your blink / healing and just let warrior keep everything they currently have. Everyone will lose a lot of things they shouldn't have. Boomkin loses blink, warriors lose heroic leap, rogues... Rogues are meant to be a 1v1 terror for casters, so works as intended.

    Rogues are a terror for everyone right now I believe, the retard damage is just there.

    So now tell me - is it really fun if the only way for someone to die is to turn 3v3 into 3v2 or get lucky with over-the-top numbers during that 20 second all-cooldown god window?
    I didn't say that


    That's a good question. Generally speaking my opinion on the new talent system is that it shouldn't add new super-strong buttons, it should add small playstyle-related things like soul of the forest, as opposed to gamebreaking things like incarnation. The reason no one ever takes soul of the forest is because the other talents in the tier are just so insanely powerful / active.
    You think Incarnation is game breaking? Are you talking about Feral only?
    SoF is useless for Boomkin in PVP. Some Rdruids use it in PVP. I actually used it as feral for a bit.

    I could counter with "this is when you fake cast, or you use your own caster cc, you LoS the cloaked rogue and force cloak before your cds" -- etc etc., the argument is just circular and that's why I feel a change is needed.
    Fake casting vs 10million kicks. (2 warriors, Reflects, other partners) Rogues kick, gouge, random stuns (Poison stun).
    It gets old when you fake cast until your dead. Or you just eat the kick.

    How do you LoS a cloaked rogue by the way? Give me some insight.
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  10. #50
    Thank god you aren't a dev. WoW would be dead within a month.

    TLDR: Disagree

  11. #51
    An example of meaningful choice: paladins deciding between wings and bubble via forbearance, or warriors deciding between shield wall / recklessness (weren't usable together until MoP). Both of those don't exist in this expansion though.

    I know rogues are a major problem at the moment and I'm not saying you're doing it wrong; I'm saying that, by design, that's how it should be - rogue > caster up close, caster > rogue if rogue is caught out of position / screws up the opener (never happens any more coz lolsubterfuge lolcloak lolvanish). Which is, again, why some abilities just need a long and hard looking at -- same for trying to fakecast, if there weren't so many bloated cc-y things on the table there wouldn't be a need for a blink or an interrupt immunity.

    The argument about soul of the forest is precisely what I mean by gamebreaking talents - no one takes it because incarnation / treants are too powerful next to it, feral or not.

  12. #52
    Although I agree with some of the things on this list, many of them are bad ideas, especially making iceblock a talent and removing CS/felhunter silence. I do have a mage, but my main is a warrior and I mostly only pvp on my warrior and rogue so no it's not mage bias, it's just an understanding of what the class needs. Here's my thoughts:

    -The only blanket silences should be for imp CS, felhunter silence and spriest silence, that's it. Remove things like spearhand strike's silence and silencing shot (hunters are fine with a non-blanket interrupt due to their strong low-cd CC).

    -Armor penetration needs to go. If they want to add it as a passive that works only in pve, that's fine. In pvp, armor should actually matter like it did in BC, especially s1&2. Melee classes, including rets need to do mostly or 100% physical damage. I'm fine with rets having a couple of attacks that do holy damage like exorcism but their damage shouldn't be primarily ignoring armor as a melee. 1-2 abilities ignoring armor is fine (same with enhance).

    -CC needs to be HEAVILY toned down, mostly all of the brainless instant CC. If it's instant due to a proc, the proc needs to be dispellable and have an ICD. Things like storm bolt, shockwave, paralyze, leg sweep, blood horror, psyfiend, etc. all need to be either toned down or removed completely.

    -Damage needs to be rebalanced by comparison to health. Everyone either does too much damage, has too much CC or both.

    -Classes are currently too self-reliant which is the major problem in why pvp in wow has become so imbalanced over the years. As time has passed, more and more classes can go into pvp situations and easily 1vX and survive for extended periods of time due to self healing. The only specs that should be able to heal themselves are healing specs, and true hybrids like enhance, ele, balance, feral, and ret. Things like second wind, recuperate, spirit bond, expel harm, etc. need to be nerfed or removed. A dps spec shouldn't be able to self heal so much that it can kite forever and not die. I'm guilty of doing it, I've found myself multiple times on my rogue having my partner die, killing one person on the opposing team, and then simply kiting the other person around a pillar getting constant restealths and auto healing with recuperate the entire time. It shouldn't be possible.

    -Dispel cooldown needs to be removed, the game was better off without it. It was a silly change and I don't think any experienced pvpers will argue that.

    -Instant cast spells of all types need to be much weaker and there needs to be less procs that make things instant cast. There needs to be a focus on casters being required to actually cast to do things. Mages not having to hardcast anything ever isn't fun for their opponents and it's not fun for them. It's why I don't play mine.

    -Mobility is ridiculous. It's almost impossible to get anyone off of you as a caster now because everyone has a sprint, a gap closer or two, multiple CCs, a snare and an interrupt. This goes hand in hand with the self-reliance point. It was better when warriors had mobility and an interrupt but no stun at close range vs. rets who didn't have a gap closer or an interrupt but a very good stun. Things like that are what I mean, you should have to play with your teammates and coordinate to get things done, not rely on the fact that every class can do everything. IMO it started with giving hunters a mortal strike and just snowballed into what we have now.

    I feel like I'm forgetting something, but if I remember I'll edit this.

  13. #53
    Stood in the Fire Machomaije's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstrike View Post
    Druid: Heart of the Wild, free shapeshifting out of everything (keep it as a mechanic but make it have a higher cost, eg. 20% of druid's mana per shapeshift), blink, bear healing for non-guardian, moonkin playstyle (spray dots 'n pray for procs + eclipse are just clunky mechanics that neither druids themselves nor the one they randomly crit for 250k enjoy), feral slow on everything (remove from mangle), faerie fire with no cooldown, root with no cooldown, cyclone (I know it's been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed which is why I think it's just a bad idea for a spell and it needs to go), a combination of heals' low manacost with the ability to spam most while bouncing around like a moron (resto and balance to a degree), incarnation.
    I lold. wtf dude.

  14. #54
    Field Marshal muppetpilot's Avatar
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    I don't agree with all of the OP's listed items as separate things, but I will say that PvP is in its worst state I have ever seen. Kind of hard to "improve" when the classes have no real distinction anymore; there really aren't any counter classes for anything now since everyone is loaded down with CC. Basically what we have now is everyone doing the same thing, just looking different and standing in different spots while doing it.

    You know what needs to go? Base resilience, that's what. Handing out damage reduction to Everyman, simply because they feel entitled to it, has gone further to break PvP than anything else - well, perhaps with the exception of all the CC, and grossly overpowered hunters and warriors haven't helped, either. Bring back the days of BC when you actually took full damage, healers could be soloed, and even if you were fully geared you could still be 2-shotted. PvP is supposed to be unforgiving when you are undergeared - after all, last time I checked, this was a gear-based game. Now because of all the crying and moaning people did because - omg! they were dying in PvP! imagine that! - this "base resil" joke has basically said that you're allowed to be babied into PvPing. Watching my spriest DOTs tick for 4k when someone has 650k health is not fun. Making it take half of eternity to kill a healer doesn't mean it requires "skill."

    Anyway don't mean to rant too much, lol. Sorry but I cut my PvP teeth during BC when classes were actually different and this damage reduction crap didn't exist. I've basically retired from PvP anyway until we (hopefully) see some positive changes.

  15. #55
    The Lightbringer thunderdragon2's Avatar
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    saber if you want paladins to chose between wings and buble in pvp give us bck loh since thats what shares forbadance with buble, also tone down cyclone as its the only cc in the game that cant be removed by a pvp trinket it can only be removed by immunities

  16. #56
    I wouldn't actually mind LoH being back, but in a way it was originally - draining all of your mana.

    Also agreed that base resilience, while good on paper, doesn't hold up at all in the longer run since it doesn't do what it was intended to do (bring gear gaps closer) -- I'd even argue it does the opposite. Same for battle fatigue. Blanket %-based changes are just lazy and bad, period.
    Last edited by Saberstrike; 2014-01-12 at 01:53 PM.

  17. #57
    Subterfuge, Double Deterrence, Many CC's, Double Ice Block, CD reset skills, Burst of Speed (root cleansing) have to go.

  18. #58
    Stood in the Fire Hildefuns's Avatar
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    This has to be a joke, surely!

  19. #59
    Then people complain that blizzard should listen more to the playerbase..

    Imagine if a few morons got together and started to whine about things that makes classes special like what the OP is doing and then blizzard listened, the game would die off within a patch time.

  20. #60
    Sooo basically everything?

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