Demo inferior to Aff/Destr in most situations, Celastalon confirms

[Mazda]

This is fine conceptually, but a godly skilled demo lock will pull less than a good destro lock. As much as I love demo, and have farm cleared everything as demo - I still wouldn't advise a new lock to even learn the other specs till WoD, because destro wins at all points in the power curve, with the exception of pad strat affliction.

That doesn't stop me from trying every chance I get . Though we've extended on Garrosh for over a month, so my parses are old old old.

[Klingers]

....especially in a game where they are vastly increasing the rate of which new content is released.

BAHAHAHA -- I'm sorry... I didn't mean to -- BAHAHAHA!!!

Post more constructively next time, please.

[Werst]

For a new lock you are almost forced destro. The meta gem pretty much forces that for the 1-2 weeks you need to get to your 3k points grind then the 2x 2.5'ish week grinds after that. So even with good luck and pristine work ethic you are looking at not less than about 10-12 weeks. Aff works great with full ilvl and crutches on the legendary meta...without it not so much. Demo vs destro are both very stat flexible/tolerant however demo tends to lose to a) legendary meta to a lesser extent than aff and b) everything demo does destro can do just as well + easier. So really that sort of starts the cycle. Demo doesn't even begin to compete until probably 570 or so (fully legendary meta/cape) so its not like it has an early niche either. That is another area where allowing DA>meta would make leveling/solo'ing as demo extremely nice even if you never stepped foot into pvp.

To me its one of the most fun specs out there for farm but was frowned upon before all this in my guild. Its sadly one of the most frustrating in pvp though potentially the most fun if you have some vision. Oh and there is a TON of room to buff CW for pvp when you consider what a MM or BM hunter, ele, mage, etc can do with instants and still having strong pressure outside CD's.

[Last Starfighter]

BAHAHAHA -- I'm sorry... I didn't mean to -- BAHAHAHA!!!

BWAH HAHAHA BWOH HOW HOW HAHAH BWAAAHHHH HAHHAHAHAHA *fart* HAHAHAHAHA BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAA


Post more constructively next time, please.

[Tramzh]

I don't understand why people are so pissed about demo being worse than the other 2 specs when we just had an era dominated by demo. While I do agree demo has some issues without UVLS, it's not even bad compared to most other specs in the game, it's just that both affli and destro are so strong right now and probably in the the top 5 strongest specs in the game atm. Compared to other classes though, unless you are doing terrible you will still be competitive between most if you decide to play it. Would you find warlocks even remotely balanced if demo was on the same level as the other 2? Meanwhile MM hunter and arms warrior have barely been playable in pve during entire MoP. We've at least had each spec being fotm and all being viable most of the time between every major patch.

[Jessicka]

There is no logic to XYZ spec doesn't work, so don't bother with A, B or C spec. You can't compare Demo against other classes, because they're not an option for the player. It's up against Aff and Destro, and if those are too strong, fix them. If they're not, then no, it's not imbalanced to bring Demo up to their level because that level is already there filling the Warlock spot in the group.

[Baconeggcheese]

Would you find warlocks even remotely balanced if demo was on the same level as the other 2?

uh... ye-... yes? Wouldn't that be exactly what we would be if all 3 of our specs were equal?

[LuisKA]

uh... ye-... yes? Wouldn't that be exactly what we would be if all 3 of our specs were equal?

Balanced does not mean balanced with yourself, it does mean balanced with every other class. Demo is an ok spec, nowhere near bad. It just happens that aff/destro need a huge slap in the face in some departments to be balanced, which they are not.

[Deleted]

Balanced does not mean balanced with yourself, it does mean balanced with every other class. Demo is an ok spec, nowhere near bad. It just happens that aff/destro need a huge slap in the face in some departments to be balanced, which they are not.

Balance is only fair if every class/spec has roughly the same amount of depth to play at a given skill level. An easy class should not dish as much damage as a class that is hard to master. Note that I make no assumption as to where Warlock specs happen to be compared to other classes on that matter. In that regard though I think Demonology, but other specs as well, need a good buff, while others certainly deserve a nerf.

[Jessicka]

Balanced does not mean balanced with yourself, it does mean balanced with every other class. Demo is an ok spec, nowhere near bad. It just happens that aff/destro need a huge slap in the face in some departments to be balanced, which they are not.

That's not a stated aim, because they know full well a more powerful spec, no matter how much 'harder' will be the spec players gravitate towards.

[LuisKA]

Balance is only fair if every class/spec has roughly the same amount of depth to play at a given skill level. An easy class should not dish as much damage as a class that is hard to master. Note that I make no assumption as to where Warlock specs happen to be compared to other classes on that matter. In that regard though I think Demonology, but other specs as well, need a good buff, while others certainly deserve a nerf.

There is no such thing as "hard to master" enough classes to justify doing more dps. Because it just doesn't require any rocket science to set up some weakauras to track trinkets/spells/procs and practice for a couple of weeks to master a class. Time and some gaming skill is all it takes.

Again, the problem with warlock is not that Demo is not on par, because it is fair game against most other classes; the problem is that Aff and Destro are completely off the clock in some departments.

[Baconeggcheese]

Again, the problem with warlock is not that Demo is not on par, because it is fair game against most other classes; the problem is that Aff and Destro are completely off the clock in some departments.

That's called a niche, stop pretending like aff and destruction are disgustingly ahead of the pack for dpse when they're not.

Edit: Y'know how you can tell the problem is with demo? If we brought aff and destruction down to current demo levels warlocks would become a weak class that is middle of the pack at best in all situations.

[Xandy]

Do Mages ever complain that they are OP? Then why are we? ENJOY IT!

[Styxz]

Do Mages ever complain that they are OP? Then why are we? ENJOY IT!

Was a mage most of my WoW career and yes we did complain when shit was broken. ICC LB and Cata Combust were fun, but we asked for a fix beofre we got what we have now =/

Pretty sure any player thats been on the game long enough knows if something is broken (even if it's fun) its best if the community pulls to get the mechanics fixed before the spec is neutered.

[blackhammer99]

Confirmation or not, I feel the whole "this spec is underwhelming" argument is invalidated in MoP.
There were specs that went entire expansions previously being completely unusable in PVE, not because of play style or nerfs, but because their abilities did way less damage than other specs.

MoP has seen every single spec in the game remain competitive, fun, and playable in raiding. Unless you are in a top world guild, then you should be playing the spec that you are most comfortable with.

A great example follows with my 25 man heroic progression guild.
We have two warlocks, one that has played his lock for many years, and another who is new to the class.
The experienced warlock always plays Demonology, no matter what the tier or encounter. He switches specs occasionally for progression, but ends up back Demo in the end citing the following reason:
I have played Demo so long that the other specs feel like I'm playing a different class. Even if Demo is miles behind, I know it inside and out, so its my best chance at full optimization and maximization of DPS.
I agree with him, as he is consistently performing well, and not only does quality DPS but has a high mastery of mechanics, which is very important. If you are playing a spec that you can't play in your sleep, your mechanics will suffer, hurting the raid far worse than small percent dps loss.

Our second warlock is a proficient player in general, but you can tell Warlock is still being learned. They play Destro on some fights, and affliction on others. The two warlocks are usually identical DPS, despite the less experienced player being about 3 ilvl's ahead.

Neither are doing dps that I would consider non-acceptable, yet they are both playing their warlocks very differently.
This is what MoP is all about, and is such a huge remedy from previous expansions that I think it laughable that people still attempt to have this discussion.

[mannenabo]

I am glad blizzard sometimes actually focus on making a fun game, rather than a balanced one

[Werst]

I still don't get why even after mountains of empirical data, an admission from blizzard, and pages of well reasoned response people still bleat on about "destro/aff are too good demo should suck because of it" or some permutation of because aff/dest its okay for demo to not be a better quality product. Nerfs aren't happening to specs since it would fubar people's progression. With that in mind accept aff/dest as the norm for locks or at least the baseline by which raid leaders think of locks in their strats. Demo has mechanical issues in pve and very significant ones in pvp. What is wrong with trying to polish up the spec a bit for the next pvp season launch/rest of lvl 90 (of which we are likely looking at 6+ months of)?

I'm not saying MM or whatever spec the butthurt others are going on about lately shouldn't be better...it should. Just this isn't the emeffing venue for it. This is the venue for warlock, especially demo lock, issues. The most frustrating thing is how much better demo could be with just a few minor tweaks. The game itself on a macro level has changed and those changes have caused some awkward kinks for demo. Its only good product management to polish out the wrinkle that results from changes inherent to the rest of the game as a whole.