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  1. #21
    Im surpriesed no one has just told me to shut up, considering I'm a Warlock

  2. #22
    Hey all.. I am in EXACTLY the same boat as this guy. (Guardian druid, healing this fight now.)
    My armory (will try to keep//get into resto gear till at least friday night, ('merica time)
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nalis/advanced


    Couple quick questions;
    Soul of the forest versus Force of Nature;
    Im pretty good with SOTF, swiftmending right before wild growths, without delaying the WG, etc..
    BUT, I've heard that the FON aren't interupted at all by the Thok Screeches, and offer some good general throughput...
    HOWEVER, Im kinda stuck around the 6652 haste bp (actually stuck at 7008 haste), and I cannot get below 6000 ish, and I can't get above to the 13,xxx haste one either (ALOT of spirit/mastery that our mistweaver doesn't want, or spirit/crit gear that he already got)... so I figured that using 6652 gets me another tick on my non-SOTF wildgrowths, and I have the..6000~ BP for the SOTF WGs.
    --So.. what do I do?

    We have 2 paladins, and I am getting a BoP on 7 to tranq. I've found that I want to AVOID using a SOTF proc on tranq as it ends WAY to fast.. and the consistent longer heal is better.
    --Is this correct?

    Hotw vs Natures Vigil
    I have both macro'd to tranq atm.. We would sometimes have a death during my tranq if it was only NV.. versus the HOTW buff seemed to make or break it (we haven't survived an ice phase past 1-3 screeches yet)
    --Are these 2 close enough that I can stick with HOTW? or should I force myself to switch over to NV? we have the bats down NP.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaydenkor View Post
    Hey all.. I am in EXACTLY the same boat as this guy. (Guardian druid, healing this fight now.)
    My armory (will try to keep//get into resto gear till at least friday night, ('merica time)
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nalis/advanced


    Couple quick questions;
    Soul of the forest versus Force of Nature;
    Im pretty good with SOTF, swiftmending right before wild growths, without delaying the WG, etc..
    BUT, I've heard that the FON aren't interupted at all by the Thok Screeches, and offer some good general throughput...
    HOWEVER, Im kinda stuck around the 6652 haste bp (actually stuck at 7008 haste), and I cannot get below 6000 ish, and I can't get above to the 13,xxx haste one either (ALOT of spirit/mastery that our mistweaver doesn't want, or spirit/crit gear that he already got)... so I figured that using 6652 gets me another tick on my non-SOTF wildgrowths, and I have the..6000~ BP for the SOTF WGs.
    --So.. what do I do?

    We have 2 paladins, and I am getting a BoP on 7 to tranq. I've found that I want to AVOID using a SOTF proc on tranq as it ends WAY to fast.. and the consistent longer heal is better.
    --Is this correct?

    Hotw vs Natures Vigil
    I have both macro'd to tranq atm.. We would sometimes have a death during my tranq if it was only NV.. versus the HOTW buff seemed to make or break it (we haven't survived an ice phase past 1-3 screeches yet)
    --Are these 2 close enough that I can stick with HOTW? or should I force myself to switch over to NV? we have the bats down NP.
    After doing a few quick calculations, I'm pretty sure you can get to the 13163 breakpoint. You do need to swap all ur gems to Quick/Energized/Reckless gems and reforge from the highest stat to haste on non haste items though. That's what I'd do.

    EDIT: I think you can reach around ~13032 haste if i'm not too off on my calculations before saccing any socket bonuses so you could obtain the haste cap by foregoing the 60 spirit bonus on ur ring for example. I think it's worth it. You should have "enough" other stats to justify it and sitting on 7k haste is bad.
    Last edited by Demez; 2014-01-17 at 01:55 AM.

  4. #24
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    The point is to get everyone topped off before the boss pushes and before the next screech (which depending on how far you push him means you likely have less than a second to get people topped off). Genesis with Nature's Vigil up is even more effective because you can cast less rejuvs and let NV do the cleave healing. Genesis also allows you to grow your mushroom on a fight where over healing is a rarity, meaning you can use your mushroom's bloom more often.
    My point is that early on you have time to let the HoTs tick, and there's little point in topping people off any sooner as they'll be topped off anyway. Later on you need to worry about your long term (>10s) HPS just as much as your short term (<10s) HPS. Genesis lowers your long-term HPS by costing a GCD in order to buff short-term HPS. That's only a good deal if there's less than ten seconds left of the stacking phase. It can be a useful way to last one more Screech by dumping all remaining Rejuvenations onto their targets, but doing so will leave you with less healing for the next one and is only really advisable if there's no way you could heal through the next Screech.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    The point in casting Genesis is because you can heal people up before other healers, not to look good on the meters - but because druids are the only class capable of doing this effectively without blowing a major healing cool down. The point is to get everyone topped off before the boss pushes and before the next screech (which depending on how far you push him means you likely have less than a second to get people topped off). Genesis with Nature's Vigil up is even more effective because you can cast less rejuvs and let NV do the cleave healing. Genesis also allows you to grow your mushroom on a fight where over healing is a rarity, meaning you can use your mushroom's bloom more often.
    I don't think that I've ever cast Genesis on a Heroic Thok pull before. It really sounds like you're talking about this from a normal mode perspective since you're talking about the boss pushing and trying to top people up before other healers. On Heroic, the boss doesn't push until you specifically stack up since your raid will be in 2 groups of 4. You need to keep people alive, and using Genesis hurts your ability to do this in the medium-term since it lowers your HPS. If you think a Screech is going to kill a person, you can save them with Ironbark/NS/Swiftmend/SagemenderHT. If you think it's going to kill more than 1 person you can blow your shrooms. This can actually be a pain in the ass though, because finding a global to put your mushroom back down isn't always easy.

    There is definitely a lot of suspect advice in this thread.
    Jellogtwo - Druid - Royal Militia [A10] - Main - 14/14H
    Jellog - Monk - Royal Militia [A10] - Alt - 12/14H

    <Royal Militia> - 14/14H x2, US 27th (22nd for 10s only), is now recruiting all classes for WoD!

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Jellog View Post
    I don't think that I've ever cast Genesis on a Heroic Thok pull before. It really sounds like you're talking about this from a normal mode perspective since you're talking about the boss pushing and trying to top people up before other healers. On Heroic, the boss doesn't push until you specifically stack up since your raid will be in 2 groups of 4. You need to keep people alive, and using Genesis hurts your ability to do this in the medium-term since it lowers your HPS. If you think a Screech is going to kill a person, you can save them with Ironbark/NS/Swiftmend/SagemenderHT. If you think it's going to kill more than 1 person you can blow your shrooms. This can actually be a pain in the ass though, because finding a global to put your mushroom back down isn't always easy.

    There is definitely a lot of suspect advice in this thread.

    I swear people don't actually read my posts. They see "Genesis" and attack.

    First - Alltat - read what I wrote. There is a specific rotation I use to ensure rejuv is maintained even after I use Genesis. There is no healing loss if I am reapplying Rejuv as soon as it falls off. Genesis is used twice in this rotation, First stack, 4th stack (with NV), 6th stack (start of the new rotation), 10th stack, 15th stack (start of the rotation again), etc...

    As far as "less healing for the next one" - again, it is a rotation of spell usage, not rejuv blanket and depend on the other healers to do all the work of getting people topped off while you let your rejuv tick so you can claim you had the most throughput for the fight even if your HPS was lower than theirs.

    Jellog - I specifically stated this is the rotation I use for normal - whether it will work for heroic? I don't see why it wouldn't.

  7. #27
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    There is no healing loss if I am reapplying Rejuv as soon as it falls off.
    But you can't reapply Rejuvenation as soon as it falls off on a whole raid. It's not possible to keep Rejuvenation up on a ten man raid even without using Genesis, at least not while also keeping Lifebloom and Harmony up and Wild Growth on cooldown. Genesis is always a long-term (>10 seconds) HPS loss when healing a raid group. There is always some target that doesn't have Rejuvenation, and so you'd do more HPS by casting Rejuvenation than Genesis.

    The only time that Genesis isn't a long-term HPS loss (on ten or more targets) is if you have Rejuvs up on at least half the raid and cast it with ~3 seconds left of Nature's Vigil to end the Rejuvs while they still get the 25% double ticks. But that's a pretty niche case that's rarely going to be relevant.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  8. #28
    Genesis should be used as a short cooldown, just like blooming your shroom. Both result in burst healing, at the cost of less healing the next few seconds (and in genesis case, an overall hps loss). But it is very likely that you will need to rotate them in between other cds such as PW:barrier and AM. The setup my guild used was 2 resto druids (one of them being me in my boomcritgear) and a disc priest. Between 8 (first 1s roar) and 15 (first raid cd) me and the other resto druid would use bloom/genesis on turns when we couldn't top up the raid fast enough for the next roar.

    Since you're the OS healer, you should consider dropping some spirit and stop healing at all in the kiting phase (except efflo, and self heal when kiting) and let the other healers do the work. Last time I healed Thok I accidentally forgot to switch gear, and ended up healing it in my boomkin gear (5k spirit, 10k haste, shitton o crit), and still managed relatively fine using this tactic.
    Last edited by Gebuz; 2014-01-20 at 05:17 PM.

  9. #29
    Its 560 ilvl enough for Resto on this fight? (I main boomkin, but have to rerol for this one).

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    Jellog - I specifically stated this is the rotation I use for normal - whether it will work for heroic? I don't see why it wouldn't.
    Because you don't worry about bursting people back up to prevent the boss from pushing when you are on heroic. The raid is stacked in two groups of four with one person standing out (or a second tank). Genesis is an overall HPS loss. If you are worried about someone dying to the next screech then you should be using (Ironbark/NS/Sagemender Stacks/Swiftmend/Bloom) in order to save them. Not Genesis.
    Jellogtwo - Druid - Royal Militia [A10] - Main - 14/14H
    Jellog - Monk - Royal Militia [A10] - Alt - 12/14H

    <Royal Militia> - 14/14H x2, US 27th (22nd for 10s only), is now recruiting all classes for WoD!

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Jellog View Post
    Because you don't worry about bursting people back up to prevent the boss from pushing when you are on heroic. The raid is stacked in two groups of four with one person standing out (or a second tank). Genesis is an overall HPS loss. If you are worried about someone dying to the next screech then you should be using (Ironbark/NS/Sagemender Stacks/Swiftmend/Bloom) in order to save them. Not Genesis.
    Why are we talking about "overall healing" and "long term HPS losses" on a fight like thok where overall healing and long term HPS doesn't mean jack? As a healer on this fight 80% of your healing is done in 3 short 1-2 minute bursts in a fight that lasts 8-9 minutes on heroic.

  12. #32
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    Because you're sacrificing a global and Rejuv uptime on a bunch of your raid for multiple screeches in order to get 2 seconds of burst healing for one screech. The only possible reason I could see to press Genesis is to try to save someone who you think is going to die to the next screech, and you have much better tools available to save that person (or people).

    I'm not talking about an HPS loss over minutes, I'm talking about the 10 seconds after you press Genesis. You now have an entire raid without Rejuv coverage, and potentially SM/WG on cooldown. What are you going to do then? Start putting Rejuvs back up and hope for the best just to do it all again?

    It just doesn't make sense. You aren't gaining anything to do it and I think it's bad advice to advocate using it.
    Jellogtwo - Druid - Royal Militia [A10] - Main - 14/14H
    Jellog - Monk - Royal Militia [A10] - Alt - 12/14H

    <Royal Militia> - 14/14H x2, US 27th (22nd for 10s only), is now recruiting all classes for WoD!

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Jellog View Post
    Because you're sacrificing a global and Rejuv uptime on a bunch of your raid for multiple screeches in order to get 2 seconds of burst healing for one screech. The only possible reason I could see to press Genesis is to try to save someone who you think is going to die to the next screech, and you have much better tools available to save that person (or people).

    I'm not talking about an HPS loss over minutes, I'm talking about the 10 seconds after you press Genesis. You now have an entire raid without Rejuv coverage, and potentially SM/WG on cooldown. What are you going to do then? Start putting Rejuvs back up and hope for the best just to do it all again?

    It just doesn't make sense. You aren't gaining anything to do it and I think it's bad advice to advocate using it.
    Ok, lets talk about rejuv uptimes vs ticks.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/z...=11461&e=11821

    This is the last time I healed Thok normal on 10m. My rejuv uptime was 99% and it ticked 939 times over 6 minutes - so an average of 2.6 ticks per second -overall rejuv did 59,093HPS. I only used genesis twice in the first push.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=5075&e=5592

    This is the latest I could find from your logs on Thok heroic. Your rejuv uptime was 96% and ticked 1124 times over 8 minutes - or an average of 2.2 ticks per second. Overall your rejuv did 56,927 HPS.

    Now we can keep talking about rejuv doing more healing without genesis, even though in a fight that lasted 2 minutes and 36 seconds longer you only managed 185 more rejuv ticks than I did, and your rejuv heals per second were actually a whole 2k HPS lower than the druid that decided to use Genesis, and the fact that your rejuv uptime % was actually lower than the druid that used genesis, and the fact that your druid is 14 ilvls higher than mine, and the fact that 2 people in your raid died directly from screech and 0 died from screech in mine, but lets not. Lets just agree to disagree shall we?

  14. #34
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    I don't know why I'm responding but oh well.

    1. You're comparing a normal parse to a heroic parse.

    2. You're comparing your 2nd highest HPS parse to my lowest HPS parse by a decent amount.

    3. We use a strategy that involves four healing and using healers to kite all the fixates, so I'm pretty often nowhere near anyone during fixates.

    4. Our deaths were due to: 1) Chomp, 2) Acid Breath, 3) Rogue not feinting + multiple people being in an Ice Block, including me. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...n+Solid%22%29+

    Ultimately, it doesn't matter in the slightest whether or not you use Genesis on Normal Thok. It probably doesn't even matter a ton if you use it on Heroic Thok. I still don't think it's a good idea to advocate it.

    There's really no reason for you to have such a combative tone in so many of your posts here. Most of your advice earlier in the thread is sound. I was just telling you that blowing your rejuvs so that the boss doesn't push isn't applicable on heroic because the raid is stacked such that the push doesn't happen until the raid collapses.
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Jellog View Post
    I don't know why I'm responding but oh well.

    1. You're comparing a normal parse to a heroic parse.


    2. You're comparing your 2nd highest HPS parse to my lowest HPS parse by a decent amount.
    Actually I am just comparing rejuv healing done and uptimes, using the 2 latest parses we both have on this boss. The health of the boss really shouldn't matter should it? I would grab a normal log, but the last log of you healing normal was back in October, and that report expired.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jellog View Post
    3. We use a strategy that involves four healing and using healers to kite all the fixates, so I'm pretty often nowhere near anyone during fixates.
    Except....yourself

    Quote Originally Posted by Jellog View Post
    4. Our deaths were due to: 1) Chomp, 2) Acid Breath, 3) Rogue not feinting + multiple people being in an Ice Block, including me. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...n+Solid%22%29+

    Ultimately, it doesn't matter in the slightest whether or not you use Genesis on Normal Thok. It probably doesn't even matter a ton if you use it on Heroic Thok. I still don't think it's a good idea to advocate it.

    There's really no reason for you to have such a combative tone in so many of your posts here. Most of your advice earlier in the thread is sound. I was just telling you that blowing your rejuvs so that the boss doesn't push isn't applicable on heroic because the raid is stacked such that the push doesn't happen until the raid collapses.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...rozen+Solid%22

    Actually, only you and the tank were frozen solid on that pull, I guess technically that's considered "multiple people" - which the other 3 healers should have easily been able to deal with. Especially if you had your hots rolling before being frozen. The lock died a full 4 minutes BEFORE you were frozen, and the rogue died after you were broken out of the ice tomb - he took the full brunt of 2 screeches and received 1 tick of your rejuv, 1 tick of your efflo, and 1 tick of your NV. In those 2 seconds - he didn't receive any other healing. This is why I advocate for genesis. Because even though you don't need to top people off so the boss doesn't push, you do need to top them off so they don't die to the next screech. He had 3 more ticks of your rejuv left on him when he died - casting genesis the instant you were broken out would have healed him for ~112k. Thok's overkill on him was 102k. He would have lived (albeit with only 10k health) if you used Genesis, regardless if he forgot to feint. This is why I advocate for genesis as a "catch up" method, and suggest people work it into their rotations. I am not saying you are personally responsible for his death - but you could have saved him with Genesis in this particular instance. The lock obviously wasn't on you. He took a breath from the boss, so that was either his fault or the tanks.

    The only difference between heroic and normal (that I have seen so far), is that instead of healing people up so the boss doesn't push, you are healing people up so they don't die. I said what rotation I personally used, and was told by multiple people that I was hurting my overall HPS by using Genesis. I defended the reason I used Genesis. As far as my combative tone? I apologize (sincerely) for being a d-bag to you, I did (do) come off like that and I shouldn't do that.

  16. #36
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whydrood View Post
    Why are we talking about "overall healing" and "long term HPS losses" on a fight like thok where overall healing and long term HPS doesn't mean jack?
    We're using "long term" in the sense of "thinking more than ten seconds ahead", not "over the entire fight". That's why I kept clarifying that "long-term" referred to "more than ten seconds" each time I mentioned it. Since the stacking phases last for more than ten seconds and you don't get any breaks where you can slowly heal people back up, long term (as in overall during the whole stacking phase) HPS is important. Getting people back up after one screech a little bit faster is useless if it means you can't keep up with the incoming damage from the screech after that, unless you use Genesis on the second-to-last screech you're taking.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  17. #37
    Using Genesis on heroic Thok during the stacked phase is not a very good idea.

    To give you a general idea how the fight works: during the intense stacked phase (stacks 6 to 29) you need to heal everyone in the raid for 400k every ~2.4 seconds, plus tank damage. So in 10 man, you need about 1.5 million raid hps (about 4m for 25). In our 10 man raid, the 3 healers do about 1.2m hps with the rest coming from raid CDs and tanks. As a druid (pretty good for this fight), you need to have a sustained healing output of 400k hps throughout those 50 seconds.

    To achieve that kind of hps, rolling Rejuvs are the most important part. Although it may sound not much (everyone gets 1 or 2 ticks between two screeches), this is the key part in healing everyone up steadily. My rejuvs tick for 45k every 2.2s (13k haste), so having rejuv up on all 10 players is more than 200k hps. The rest comes from Wildgrowth, Efflo, Cleave, Lifebloom and several other (smaller) sources.

    If I use Genesis to heal everyone up quickly between two screeches, I have a problem: after the next screesh, there are no Rejuvs up, but everyone still needs those 400k healing. So after using Genesis, when those fast-ticking rejuvs are gone, I am missing 200k hps until I can get those rejuvs up again. This will put a huge strain on your other healers, or worse, someone will die.
    There can be moments when you know someone will die in the next screesh (because he is too low), but using Genesis is not the right answer to this. The first thing to consider is blooming your shroom, because if someone is really low, chances are everyone else is too. Shrooms are the best emergency tool here, because it can be placed again 3s later, thus only sacrificing a very small amount of throughput (a few Efflo ticks). If only a few people are low, using defensive CDs or single target heals (SM, NS/2p-HT) is the better option. And of course the other healers will focus on them, too.

    There are a few theoretical cases in which I could imagine using Genesis (although I haven't personally used it) here. If you know a very big healing CD is coming in right after the next screech (like HTT/Asc from resto Shaman), AND several people would die in the next screech, AND your shroom is not placed/on CD/empty, Genesis would be a good option.
    However, I never needed to do that, because once the healers figure out the fight, it usually goes pretty smooth, because the damage is, though brutal, very predictable.

    Genesis is definitely useful on some fights. I always use it on heroic Shaman, and it's the perfect tool for Empowered Whirling Corrpution on heroic Garrosh when no big healing CD is running. But the continuous hps requirement during Thok's stacked phase is not the place for Genesis.

    Edit: here is a video of me healing the boss from a few months ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uADDd5MA0mg
    Last edited by Thalur; 2014-01-21 at 03:30 PM.

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