1. #1

    Summary: Going from 10man HC to 25 man HC

    Hi Guys,

    as some 10man guilds will be recruting / fusion with other guild to raid 20 man in WoD, they will switch over to 25 man raiding in MoP at some point. Thus i suggest creating a list of changes / tips that occur when doing SoO with 25 man. If you like the idea and want to help, pls post suggestions, ill update this main post asap.

    Immerseus
    Raid Composition: 1-2 Tanks, 5 Healers, rest DPS

    *stacks on the boss will be gone nearly instantly
    *many more sha pools on the floor though


    Fallen Protectors
    Raid Composition: 1-2 Tanks, 5 Healers, rest DPS

    Any changes here?


    Norushen
    Raid Composition: 2 Tanks, 5 Healers, rest DPS

    *send 3 DPS at a time
    *possible third tank to make add handling more smooth


    Sha of Pride
    Raid Composition: 2 Tanks, 5 Healers, rest DPS

    *Spread out to close the rifts
    *Assign groups to each prison
    *As DPS, grouping up for the titan buff is not advised due to positioning issues. You can use the very first titan buff though and spread out afterwards


    Galakras
    Raid Composition: 2 Tanks, 4-5 Healers, rest DPS

    *6+ dps for tower


    Iron Juggernaut
    Raid Composition: 2 Tanks, 5-8 Healers, rest DPS


    Dark Shamans
    Raid Composition: 3 Tanks, 5 Healers, rest DPS

    *Playing this with 2 groups (like most of us did in 10 man as well) is advised, 2 tanks, 3 Healers and melees go in the room / up the ramp with Haromm


    Nazgrim
    Raid Composition: 2-3 Tanks, 4-5 Healers, rest DPS

    *third tank to smooth positioning and taunting, makes the job easier for your tanks


    Malkorok
    Raid Composition: 2-3 Tanks, 5 Healers, rest DPS

    *possible third tank for getting the adds and soak the orbs
    *assign one player for each eigth of the room, so not everyone has to move everytime
    *3 options for second phase:
    1. Use freedoms like Hand of Freedom (paladins), windwalk totem (shamans), Master's call (hunters), Stampeding roars (druids) to remove the root effect of people, let them then run out and dispel.
    2. Have 1 tank soak it alone. This requires heavy CD usage as he hits much harder than in 10man
    3. Have 2 tanks soak it. This could be problematic if you 2 tank it, since one of the tanks will get increased dmg due to the stacking tank debuff.


    Spoils of Pandaria
    Raid Composition: 2 Tanks, 4-6 Healers, rest DPS

    *number of healers depend on gear. mantid side usually needs more healing


    Thok
    Raid Composition: 1-2 Tanks, 6-8 Healers, rest DPS

    *try to get near 30 stacks.
    *mass dispel on cd in poison phase


    Siegecrafter Blackfuse
    Raid Composition: 2 Tanks, 4-5 Healers, rest DPS

    *Kill Shockwave Missile on the Dreadmill
    *having 3 hunters or more makes the dreadmill roation easier as they can disengange up everyother wave
    *position the boss next to the dreadmill in the south (spawn point of mines) and cleave any incoming mines. Melees have to react fast if they get fixated


    Paragons of Klaxxi
    Raid Composition: 2-3Tanks, 5-6 Healers, rest DPS

    *organised grouping up and moving when Hurl Amber occurs is advised
    *soaking Aim requires 5-6 person or 3 persons that get priest-shielded and use small CDs (Feint, detterence, being a warlock)
    -> remember though that you can and should use loss-of-target abilities like Feign Death (hunter), Spectral Guise (priests), Invisibility (Mages), Vanish (rogues) to fully prevent the dmg of aim (you will still be rooted for the whole duration)
    *If you do not have insane DPS, you need to let 2 Injection buffs go through on your Rikkal tank. This equals to 16 parasites. In 25, 3 players will get transformed into scoripions each Mutate. Therefore the second Injection should go through before the third Mutate hits. You have to adapt the number of parasites each scorpion eats to the number of Mutates you get. With three Mutates total (= 9 scorpions), six scorpions need to eat 2 parasites.


    Garrosh
    Raid Composition: 3Tanks, 4 Healers, rest DPS


    I personally havent done a 25 HC raid yet, i got all information of guides on youtube.

    Feel free to comment, add tips and corect me where im wrong, content and language / spelling wise

    Hope you like that idea :-)
    Last edited by hYrsch; 2014-01-15 at 12:44 PM.

  2. #2
    Immerseus - main change is that boss debuffs barely matter. The stacks will be gone within seconds and mass dispel or two will take care of it in case they're somehow a problem.

    Protectors - same fight really. There's 5 Banes instead of 2, but that's pretty much it. It is slightly more annoying to dispel, but it's a minor thing.

    Norushen - need to pick up the pace with purifying. Third tank could be useful to make add handling more smooth, since you can't afford to wait with cleansing. You can release them one by one, but pretty much chaining them, or go for huge 5 add groups and burn raid cds through each one, having a short break afterwards to heal up and go for another one.

    Sha of Pride - more prisons, rifts, more ranged adds = can't really group up in one section... Not to mention that it would be a real clusterfuck when trying to spot Projections later on. Just go for 4 groups, each with their own healer, with one as a backup.

    Galakras - same thing as 10 man really. Go with 6+ dps for the first towers, as Drakes kinda hurt at this point and you need to kill them off fast. Don't remember what it was in 10 man, but the right tower miniboss hurts a lot here. Tower guard are pretty easy to kill, not much to worry about here - with 3 healers on the ground, one can keep up the gnomes with ocasional heal.

    Juggernaut - go for 6-8 healers, there's really a ton of damage during siege phases. 5 healing is something you might do at deep farm and even then it's quite painful - you pretty much assume there won't be a second siege phase or you'll never make it alive.

    Shamans - Prisons are trivialized since you're pretty much guaranteed to have a Priest somewhere. Other than that, same thing really.

    Nazgrim - the main thing you might notice is that adds are somewhat harder to kill and won't simply melt under focused fire. Still easy, but they do take more attention. Other than that, same thing. Well, obviously, it's easier for someone to mess up during Defensive, but for heroic raiders "stop dps" should be a given.

    Malkorok - TWO tanks. Don't need a third one ever, simply have melee taunt the adds. There are three of them, which is somewhat annoying, but nothing that requires a tank. They do no damage, merely slow movement and casts. Blood Rage phases can be easier, since it's very possible to have double Roars for them and negate the dot entirely. Need much heavier CD usage for solo soaking, though, he hits much harder.

    Spoils - 5 healers max. Maybe even 4, but that makes Mantid side quite painful to heal - maybe if you have a lot of raid cd's or outgear it. Generally not worth it. Other than that, same fight really... well, except that Mogu side healers won't be able to handle the Sparks by themselves. Unless you go with 3+3.

    Thok - 7-8 healers. Going with 7 is possible, but doesn't really make the fight that much shorter, while risking potential deaths due to overwhelming damage. Highly dependant on secondary raid cooldowns/off healing, so it might work for some. Also, finishing some phases earlier isn't really advisable. There's a ton of dispeling during poison phase, make sure you utilize that Mass Dispel.

    Siegecrafter - more than 4 healers isn't really needed. There's almost nothing to heal outside of Magnets, so they'll be bored throughout most of the fight. You generally deal with the mines, as there are more slows, stuns and engineers, whereas rockets can be a massive pain with 25 people. Also, you can't really "zerg" the fight in 5 waves.

    Paragons - 5 healers, maybe even 6. Parasites can do a ton of damage, but that's more of a CC issue. The real problem are Fiery Edges, especially when combined with Multishot/Diminish/Whirling or whatever crazy stuff happens at the time. Other than that, 4 healers would be enough, so with enough raid cd's... maybe. Don't need third tank - some use it for scorpion, but that's something that can be handled by either of two usual ones.

    Garrosh - 4 healers. There's almost nothing to heal outside some rare instances, like Annihilate and Whirling Corruption. Third tank for add kiting works well, although they are killable without one. There are no real mechanic changes from 10 man, so outside of gear requirements, it's pretty much the same thing.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2014-01-15 at 03:52 AM.

  3. #3
    My guild did the jump from 10 man HC to 25 man HC and I tell you, it was worth it.

    Unlike what most people believe, I found 25 man to be easier than 10 man. There are more raid CDs, more healing to compensate for derpness, personal responsibility is lower... You can carry some baddies in 25, in 10 man just having 1 baddie and you are screwed. The clusterfuck of stuff happening is much higher in 25, though, so there will be harder fights (pool soaking in Malkorok, for example), but overall the room for error is larger in 25. Oh, and did I mention the loot is a LOT better in 25? We had 3 trinkets drop in a single boss (yes, THREE), one of them being Warforged!

    The hardest part in 25 man is actually maintaining the roster and organizing the raid. You MUST run a bench, there is a much greater chance someone will be absent in any given day. Drama is multiplied by more than 3X, so be mentally prepared to deal with it. Tank responsibility is MUCH greater, you better have the tank be the Raid Leader or at very least an Officer with 100% attendence.

    Good luck! You made the right choice! Just be prepared to deal with people's whinyness, and you will be golden!

  4. #4
    Paragons is pretty different, be prepared to wipe a bunch. 6 heal it and abuse tank with scorpion to beat enrage, make sure people have Fiery Edge positioning down and you blow CD's for them cos they hurt really badly.

    1-11 are pretty easy on both difficulties at this point, theres not that much to know. If your dps is good just overheal everything for first kills, you can 4 heal blackfuse but he dies so fast just go with 5 etc.

    Would still advise 4 healing garrosh tho, theres like no healing required on the fight and you really want to beat 2nd whirl in p3.

  5. #5
    High Overlord
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    Take every mechanic that you need to watch out for in 10 man... and throw it out the window. Sheer amount of raid CDs and "smart healing" let's you pretty much ignore any mechanics and just burn.

    The tuning difference between the two formats this tier really was ridiculous.

    Enjoy being showered in Warforged gear.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Xploit View Post
    Take every mechanic that you need to watch out for in 10 man... and throw it out the window. Sheer amount of raid CDs and "smart healing" let's you pretty much ignore any mechanics and just burn.

    The tuning difference between the two formats this tier really was ridiculous.

    Enjoy being showered in Warforged gear.
    Enjoy reading bullshit, too. The only part where this is actually true is Immerseus, where boss stacks don't matter at all in 25.

    You don't ignore Annihilate, you don't heal through Embodied Doubts casts, don't ignore Embodied Fear, Malice, Mind Control, Shaman's healing, Iron Stars.
    You don't ignore Fiery Edges, Rapid Fire (which hits for MORE in 25, basically one shotting you from the very beginning), Amber Pools, Death from Above, Aim.
    You don't ignore Magnets, Mines, Lasers, Shredders.
    You don't ignore Thok screeches, bats, kiting, poison/frost debuffs.
    You don't ignore Mantid mini bosses, mines, adds that buff Mogu miniboss, sparks, enrage on mantin adds, tornadoes, golem void zones.
    You don't ignore Malkorok void zones, adds, breath, orbs.
    You don't ignore Nazgrim adds, Warsong, Leap, defensive stance.
    You don't ignore Shamans Tornadoes, Elementals, Tombs, adds, Foul Stream, meteors
    You don't ignore Juggernaut AOE, mines, mortars.
    You don't ignore Swelling Pride, Prisons, Rifts, Projections,.
    You don't ignore Norushen adds, lasers, orb soaking
    You don't ignore Protector dots, poison clouds, adds.

    I could tell a bullshit story of my own, too - where during some slow week we went to 10 man and some bosses were complete joke. What a surprise, deep farmed trivial content is trivial content.

    TLDR: Get out, flamebait.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh yeah, one more thing - in general, one tanking isn't really worth it in 25 man. Yes, you will do more damage, but the increase isn't nearly as noticeable as it is in 10 man. In addition to that, bosses/adds hit harder, so there's a bigger risk of dying to something that wasn't really relevant in 10 man. So, make that 2 tanks for Immerseus and Protectors. Dunno about Thok, could be done I guess, but again - not really worth it.

    And seeing that this question still remains - send melee on Nazgrim adds, don't tunnel the boss. Berserk timer is very lenient, but adds do have quite a bit of hitpoints. They won't die with just a couple of Chaos Bolts.

    As for Paragons - there is an issue with Aim soaking, namely lack of space. You need 5+ people at very least - more as the fight goes on - and it gets difficult to position them without chaining. If you don't have multiple rogues, abuse those Spirit Shells/Shields/personals. Also, organized movement for Amber is only possible early on, before you have to deal with Edges.

    Protectors - about the only actual difference might be Inferno Strike. I assume it's much easier to solo soak this in 10 man. In 25 - don't even bother, outside extreme damage reductions (do immunities work? don't remember) like Dispersion. Also, with 25 people, it gets kinda crowded so it's easy to clip someone without said reductions and kill them. Hardly an issue, but something worth remembering.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2014-01-14 at 04:24 PM.

  7. #7
    Many true point in this ^ post.

    I watched the first streamed 25hc run of paragon and took some information out of there, like 1 man tanking thok, immerseus, protectors etc. It's ofc not a necessity, but can be done with too much effort, thats why i added it.

    I dont think you need 5+ ppl for soaking aim, i have seen it done with 3 ppl soaking with them using cds like detterence and getting shielded. so not too much trouble there

  8. #8
    We switched from 10m Heroic to 25m Heroic last week.
    We merged with 2 other 10m guilds. We had Garrosh on farm, the other have at least tried Garrosh HC.

    The first 11 bosses felt like a big joke in 25. Granted, we farmed those bosses on 10m for weeks already but this was our very first 25m raid together and we barely knew each other.
    Nevertheless, it is true that you could ignore a lot of the mechanics. We had to raid with 7 healers and 3 tanks and had to invite several underequipped friends to be able to raid with 25 players and it was still nothing but a big joke.

    We wiped several times to Blackfuse because of the different tactics that each guild used, so that fight was very different in 25m.

    Klaxxi, however, wasn't all that hard. Probably because every guild had them on farm on 10m and knew what to watch out for. Took us maybe 5-6 trys to down them, no real threat there. Aim soaking? Feign Death, Spectral Guise, Vanish, Invisiblity. We barely had to deal with any Aims.

    Garrosh felt *A LOT* easier on 25m. Certain mechanics that you had to watch out for in 10m were simply ignored. In 10m, you wipe a lot during the first transmission because of not having enough interrupts/stuns and all that. In 25m, you just send each group to each pack. Also, in 25m we simply stacked for every whirling corruption, having 1000 raid cooldowns does help a lot.
    Being able to kite every empowered whirling corruption add was ridiculous as well.
    During p4 we got 2 iron stars at the same time and both exploded. This would have wiped us in 10m. In 25m, we didn't lose a single person to this.
    In 10m, the second and fourth malice are not that easy to deal with. In 25m you just.. deal with them in the normal way.
    Still, we wiped about 30 times to Garrosh 25m Heroic but most players in the raid haven't killed Garrosh on 10m and our lineup was really bad as well.

    Just saying that if you're a competent 10m Heroic raider, 25m Heroic will - overall - feel a lot easier.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by hYrsch View Post
    I dont think you need 5+ ppl for soaking aim, i have seen it done with 3 ppl soaking with them using cds like detterence and getting shielded. so not too much trouble there
    Aim is 5mln base damage. Dividing this between 3 people is 1.66mln. That means big 50% cooldown for every soak, while ignoring all other possible damage. It works with multiple rogues, sure, but for other classes, it's rather risky, especially once he gains stacks. In other words - it might works, but it's heavily raid dependant.

    I mean, sure, maybe you'll live, but any random scratch will finish you off afterwards.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Paragons - 5 healers, maybe even 6. Parasites can do a ton of damage, but that's more of a CC issue.

    If you even get parasites, your tanks are shit and need to learn the mechanics.

    "Injection is a stacking debuff applied to Rik'kal's current target. It deals a small amount of Nature damage per second for each stack, and when it expires, it causes several Amber Parasites to spawn. These Parasites fixate on random raid members, deal high Physical damage to them through an ability called Feed. The Amber Parasites are healed to full health every 10 seconds. Stacks of Injection are not applied to tanks under the effects of their active mitigation abilities."

  11. #11
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Correction...
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    If you don't get parasites, your tanks are shit and need to learn the mechanics.
    Getting parasites is required on heroic mode.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2014-01-14 at 06:28 PM.

  12. #12
    You get 16 parasites on Heroic 25, unless you somehow manage to kill him before third mutate, or kill one person who won't be able to eat anything. (or gets lucky with Alter Time) This means 2 Injections, which is actually a lot of potential damage from little suckers. Either way, that's not a huge threat. Healing is mostly about the Edges, once Lucid is dead, it's just pure tank damage which is rather easy to deal with. And Reave, which is just meh.

  13. #13
    My bad then. *shrug*

  14. #14
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    You get 16 parasites on Heroic 25, unless you somehow manage to kill him before third mutate, or kill one person who won't be able to eat anything. (or gets lucky with Alter Time) This means 2 Injections, which is actually a lot of potential damage from little suckers. Either way, that's not a huge threat. Healing is mostly about the Edges, once Lucid is dead, it's just pure tank damage which is rather easy to deal with. And Reave, which is just meh.
    You ideally want to time it so you have a max of 10 up at once I believe, but that will be before Edges appear. You should aim to have all parasites dead when edges appear or your raid could be in trouble. However, if there's like 1-2 parasites up when Rik'kal dies you can also just have DPS kill them before they get a regenerate off.

  15. #15
    The stacks will be gone within seconds and mass dispel or two will take care of it.
    Last edited by bachertzhan; 2014-01-15 at 02:16 AM.

  16. #16
    Good decision, 25man is just so much easier than 10man right now, and with much better loots as well.

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