1. #1

    Converting to 25M, need strat help for SoO (ie. what's the difference from 10M?)

    Hi folks, my guild's going 25m soon so I'm looking for a sort of a master list of how everything is scaled in 25M. If you can help me fill out the following it'd be much appreciate it.

    Immerseus

    10M: We use 1 tank, 2 healers, and 7 dps
    25M: Can this fight be 1 tanked on 25M?

    Protectors

    10M: There's 2 sw:bane going out per cast. There's 1 mark going out from He's desperate measure, and 1 orange circle to be soaked from Rook's desperate measure.
    25M: How many sw:banes will be going out per cast? And how many mark? Can the tank still soak mark? How many orange circle thingy that need to be stacked/soaked will come out during Rook's desperate measure?

    Norushen

    10M: We send 1 healer+1dps, then 1 tank+1dps, then rest of the dps in pairs, so a total of 8 people go down until the boss is killed, we hero at 50%.
    25M: How many people should we send down per round of orbs without getting overwhelmed by adds? I have seen guilds do a group of 5 each time so after 5 rounds, everyone would have gone down and got purified, then they lust and burn. I have also seen guilds with a dedicated adds killing team, so they'd have a group that never goes down who's only job is to kill the adds for the whole fight. What is recommended?

    Sha of Pride

    10M: There's 2 debuff going out at once and only 1 healer getting the titan so using 2 healers we just have both of them dispel on CD regardless of titan buff, lust at the start and burn the boss. There's 2 prisons going out at once, the tanks get one prison and the rdps get the other.
    25M: Can this fight be 4 healed? Can it be 3 healed? How many debuffs will go out? Is lusting at the start still recommended? How many prisons will go out?

    Galakras

    10M: For tower group, we sent a group of 5 to tower: 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps. For last phase, we have everyone stack up and just heal through the orbs until the boss is dead.
    25M: How many people is recommended for tower group? Is the final phase still doable using the stack and burn strat?

    Iron Jugg

    10M: We use 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 6 dps. Tanks soak all the bombs. We lust at the start.
    25M: How many bombs will be coming out of the boss? Can the tanks still get all of them?

    Dark Shaman

    10M: 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 6 dps. We tank them together at the start, and sort of half together towards the end, walk the two bosses around the room in a clockwise fashion, and leave all the crap they drop behind us.
    25M: I hear it's easier to 3 tank this, if so, how do you divide up the groups? How many dps/healer on each boss? And how do you position them?

    General Naz.

    10M: Depending on our dps, we usually pop hero during berzerk stance when the boss gets low, and ignore the adds coming out at 10%, stun/cc and have them tanked on the opposite side of the room and just burn the boss
    25M: How many adds will be coming out each round? When do you hero? Can you ignore the adds toward the end?

    Malkorok

    10M: There's 3 purple swirls that need to be soaked after each smash. We use lust at the start.
    25M: How many purple swirls are there? How do you assign people to soak stuff? I feel it will be more chaotic on 25M simply because the number of bodies...how many healers do you use? Is the number of smashes still 3?

    Spoils

    10M: 5 people on each side, 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps. Both side lust on Mogu big box when they get there. There's 2 pandas to kill at the start for each side
    25M: How many pandas do we need to kill? And can this fight be 4 healed (2 heals on each side)? Anything else we need to know?

    Thok

    10M: We use 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 6 dps. We do Poison -> Ice -> Flame and lust at the start.
    25M: How many healers do you recommend? Is the door order of Poison -> Ice -> Flame still work on 25m? Anything else that's different? How much more health does the jailers have? Can the tank/melee handle the jailers fine on their own?

    Siegecrafter

    10M: We have one person take care of the odd belts and one person take care of even belts. We always kill the mines, and if not, we kill the laser beam. We use 2 tanks 2 healers and 6 dps for this fight.
    25M: How many people do we need per belt? Can a person solo it? How about the shredders? Do we need rdps to switch and help out the tanks? Any other tip?

    Paragon

    10M: Kill order: Dissector -> Blood seeker -> Prime -> Swarm -> Poison -> Manipulator -> Locus -> Lucid -> Wind
    25M: Is the order still okay? How many aim beams do the Swarm guy cast? How many koroch thingy do the Manipulator do per cast? Anything else we need to know?

    Garrosh

    10M: We use 2 tanks 2 healers and 6 dps. We use the stack strat for P1, everyone just stack, kill weapon that falls on top of us, and then aoe adds+garrosh. For p3, we ignore the adds, clean up the MC, and burn the boss
    25M: Will the stack strat still work for 25M? How many dps do we need to kill the engineer (is 1 dps still sufficient)? How many MC goes out per cast? Can the adds be ignored in P3?
    Last edited by Xelaeno; 2014-01-13 at 05:27 AM.

  2. #2
    Assuming you're referring to normal modes, just yolo it. It's ridiculously easy.

  3. #3
    There's a lot of 25-man youtube videos out there that will answer most of these questions.

  4. #4
    I know >.< but I'll have to watch 14 of them...

  5. #5
    My guild managed to do the first 2 bosses in 25 man before we lost enough people we had to go down to 10.


    First boss: We 2 tanked it. I would say that it is possible to use 1 tank if they have good cooldowns but your dps is going to have to really work at it. My advise would be just 2 tank it, not a hard fight otherwise. 3 Healers if you have dps off heal to get the healing ozze but 4 would be better.

    Second Boss: I believe there are 4 bane going out maybe 5. There is still just one mark from He and the tank is still able to take it. The orange circle takes 14 to be safe.

    Third Boss: This one is much harder on 25 man then on 10 man. You need to control it so you don't have 3-4 big adds all at once. They will easily wipe you if you do. You have 5 orbs so 3 dps will want to go in each time(Can send extra healers early on but then you are sending 5 dps on the later ones.) There is no right option in what you want to send if you want to send all 25 or just send some in it all depends on what works for you. My guild did a week or two of attempts but couldn't coordinate enough to control the big adds so we wiped alot.

  6. #6
    Stood in the Fire PraisetheSun's Avatar
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    Personally 13/14 HC experienced in 10-man, 8/14 HC experienced in 25. I'm a tank, so there are certain things I cannot tell you off the top of my head, but I will try to the best of my ability. I have appended my responses to the quote, in bold:

    Quote Originally Posted by Xelaeno View Post
    Hi folks, my guild's going 25m soon so I'm looking for a sort of a master list of how everything is scaled in 25M. If you can help me fill out the following it'd be much appreciate it.

    Immerseus

    10M: We use 1 tank, 2 healers, and 7 dps
    25M: Can this fight be 1 tanked on 25M?

    There are two significant things to know about 25-man HC Immerseus - I would not advise 1-tanking it, as the adds + boss will most likely kill your tank, and your DPS no longer need to pay strict attention to their stacks of Swelling Corruption, as the boss still only has 50 stacks in 25-man. If you are adamantly determined to 1-tank it, you will most likely need to rotate externals on the tank.

    Protectors

    10M: There's 2 sw:bane going out per cast. There's 1 mark going out from He's desperate measure, and 1 orange circle to be soaked from Rook's desperate measure.
    25M: How many sw:banes will be going out per cast? And how many mark? Can the tank still soak mark? How many orange circle thingy that need to be stacked/soaked will come out during Rook's desperate measure?

    The adds do not increase in number, only HP. SW: Bane is, according to my 25-man experienced healer acquaintances, less problematic in 25-man, and can more or less be handled through mass dispels. I would strongly advise against throwing the mark to a tank, and if you absolutely feel you must, throw it to the He tank - the Rook tank will likely not survive the armour reduction unless they are a monk.

    Norushen

    10M: We send 1 healer+1dps, then 1 tank+1dps, then rest of the dps in pairs, so a total of 8 people go down until the boss is killed, we hero at 50%.
    25M: How many people should we send down per round of orbs without getting overwhelmed by adds? I have seen guilds do a group of 5 each time so after 5 rounds, everyone would have gone down and got purified, then they lust and burn. I have also seen guilds with a dedicated adds killing team, so they'd have a group that never goes down who's only job is to kill the adds for the whole fight. What is recommended?

    The 5-group strategy is sound, but requires rotating raid CDs for when adds come up. You should not need a dedicated add-killing team unless your raiders are severely prone to tunneling; you may however need to assign specific orb-soakers, as tanks cannot soak every orb bar one on this fight like they can in 10-man.

    Sha of Pride

    10M: There's 2 debuff going out at once and only 1 healer getting the titan so using 2 healers we just have both of them dispel on CD regardless of titan buff, lust at the start and burn the boss. There's 2 prisons going out at once, the tanks get one prison and the rdps get the other.
    25M: Can this fight be 4 healed? Can it be 3 healed? How many debuffs will go out? Is lusting at the start still recommended? How many prisons will go out?

    I do not remember how many debuffs go out, but bringing 5 healers and simply having them dispel on CD regardless of whether they have Gift has worked in the GDKPs I've done. If your DPS is good, you can still lust at the start, especially since the last phase is generally more manageable in 25-man due to an abundance of raid CDs. 4 prisons will go out, and you should assign a group to each prison. You will also need to ride your raid's ass about soaking rifts to an even greater degree than in 10-man - in my experience, as pertains to rifts, 25-mans tend to suffer from Bystander Syndrome.

    Galakras

    10M: For tower group, we sent a group of 5 to tower: 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps. For last phase, we have everyone stack up and just heal through the orbs until the boss is dead.
    25M: How many people is recommended for tower group? Is the final phase still doable using the stack and burn strat?

    We usually send 1 tank, 2 healers, and 7 DPS for each tower. At current gear levels, stack-and-burn is perfectly viable.

    Iron Jugg

    10M: We use 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 6 dps. Tanks soak all the bombs. We lust at the start.
    25M: How many bombs will be coming out of the boss? Can the tanks still get all of them?

    Tanks can still get all the bombs, but you will generally have many classes with immunities that can help soak. If you so wish, it may be easier to simply assign players with immunities (or players to be HoP'ed) that soak waves - this mostly in case you have low-mobility tanks like Prot Paladins and Blood DKs.

    Dark Shaman

    10M: 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 6 dps. We tank them together at the start, and sort of half together towards the end, walk the two bosses around the room in a clockwise fashion, and leave all the crap they drop behind us.
    25M: I hear it's easier to 3 tank this, if so, how do you divide up the groups? How many dps/healer on each boss? And how do you position them?

    The heroic version of the encounter is 3-tanked by all but the foolhardiest in both sizes. 2 tanks up top, 4? healers (enough to ensure tanks never have Toxic Mist, and preferably no Mistweavers to avoid Tombs in melee), all of your melee up top. Disc priests and a warrior or monk tank + all your ranged downstairs. You can also do this with all your melee downstairs to be completely sure you will not get Iron Tombs in melee, but your melee will loathe you for it.

    General Naz.

    10M: Depending on our dps, we usually pop hero during berzerk stance when the boss gets low, and ignore the adds coming out at 10%, stun/cc and have them tanked on the opposite side of the room and just burn the boss
    25M: How many adds will be coming out each round? When do you hero? Can you ignore the adds toward the end?

    Number of adds is the same, but with more HP. Lust at 10-12%, preferably outside of defensive stance. You can ignore adds towards the end, but the risk of your tank being killed by the adds and them running rampant is significantly higher. Also note that tanks may need externals in Berserker Stance as the damage is quite high.

    Malkorok

    10M: There's 3 purple swirls that need to be soaked after each smash. We use lust at the start.
    25M: How many purple swirls are there? How do you assign people to soak stuff? I feel it will be more chaotic on 25M simply because the number of bodies...how many healers do you use? Is the number of smashes still 3?

    7 pools spawn on 25-man, as well as 3 Living Corruption adds, compared to 3 and 1 respectively in 10-man. You still want to assign your players to specific quadrants to soak, and your melee must help tanks bring the adds on top of the boss. Due to the nature of the Displaced Energy debuff on Heroic, if you do not have 2 druids (one feral and a symbiosed warrior may work), you cannot stack during Blood Rage. Overall, so long as your healer setup brings many externals, it is safer to let a tank solo-soak the Blood Rage, although this will mean neither they nor the healers can use any CDs at all outside of this phase.

    You will still get 3 smashes, and I would recommend 5 healers at the very most.


    Spoils

    10M: 5 people on each side, 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps. Both side lust on Mogu big box when they get there. There's 2 pandas to kill at the start for each side
    25M: How many pandas do we need to kill? And can this fight be 4 healed (2 heals on each side)? Anything else we need to know?

    There are still 2 pandas. On Heroic, 4-healing is basically a necessity. You will want to open the boxes in an order closely resembling the following - Both pandas, first large and 2 smalls, mediums to 34 (never two golems at once), second large and two more smalls. This will bring you to 50 energy with as few sparks as possible. It is advised to drag the large crate adds into the middle of the room so your tanks and DPS may cleave onto the sparks and statues. You will still want to lust on Mogu side.

    Thok

    10M: We use 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 6 dps. We do Poison -> Ice -> Flame and lust at the start.
    25M: How many healers do you recommend? Is the door order of Poison -> Ice -> Flame still work on 25m? Anything else that's different? How much more health does the jailers have? Can the tank/melee handle the jailers fine on their own?

    On heroic, in current gear, I hear of guilds bringing as many as 7-8 healers - it all depends on how many strong raid CDs and silence-immunities like HoP and Devo Aura you have available. At no point can you go above 29 stacks, as the 30th stack on heroic will one-shot your raid. Poison, Ice, Fire is still the most commonly seen order, but be aware that you may need to shorten the Poison phase if your healers are not strong, as the raid damage when both Screeches and Bat AoE are going out is tremendous. So long as ranged DoT the jailer, tanks and melee should be able to finish it off in due time.

    Siegecrafter

    10M: We have one person take care of the odd belts and one person take care of even belts. We always kill the mines, and if not, we kill the laser beam. We use 2 tanks 2 healers and 6 dps for this fight.
    25M: How many people do we need per belt? Can a person solo it? How about the shredders? Do we need rdps to switch and help out the tanks? Any other tip?

    Only certain tanks (warriors, basically) are reliably capable of killing the shredder with anything less than 4 stacks, and so your tanks will want to do something along the likes of:

    First Shredder: MT 3 stacks, OT 0. MT kills.
    Second Shredder: MT 5 stacks, OT 2. MT kills.
    Third Shredder: MT 0 stacks, OT 5. OT kills.

    You can repeat this order indefinitely; the MT will want to use 3-minute DPS CDs for the first shredder in this order.

    On 25-man, you will want very strong, bursty comps for the belts. During heroism (that is to say, the first belt), it seems the belt can be done with 3 players. All belts beyond this seem to require, at the very least, 4 players, and these must be geared out the wazoo. To be absolutely safe, I would recommend 5. On 25-man, it is generally preferable to always kill drills and deal with mines instead, as you will have slows, stuns, roots and powerful AoE classes in greater abundance. If you cannot kill the drills, kill the magnet.

    Note that the heroic-only mechanic simply empowers certain weapons to work differently at certain times, but that this does not significantly change the way in which you approach the fight. On both 25 Normal and 25 HC, I would recommend always dealing with mines rather than drills.


    Paragon

    10M: Kill order: Dissector -> Blood seeker -> Prime -> Swarm -> Poison -> Manipulator -> Locus -> Lucid -> Wind
    25M: Is the order still okay? How many aim beams do the Swarm guy cast? How many koroch thingy do the Manipulator do per cast? Anything else we need to know?

    The order you have stated works for Normal mode only. Due to the heroic nature of the mutations Rik'kal applies, your tanks must let a set number of injections through, otherwise mutated players will die. On 10-man, the first injection must be let through, and on 25-man, the first injection must be let through, followed by another injection after the second mutation. Additionally, you cannot break the Amber on Heroic without the buff from Ka'roz, and seeing as it is preferable to leave him alive til last, you will need to do the following: Kill Skeer - Wait for 4th cast of Mutation, kill Rik'kal - DPS Korven to 55-60% HP - DPS Ka'roz below 50% HP (this is to bait a cast of Amber on Ka'roz) - kill Korven - kill Hisek - lust and kill Xaril - kill Iyyokuk - kill Kaz'tik - kill Kil'ruk - kill Ka'roz. Raid damage will be very high while Iyyokuk is up, and tank damage during the last 3-4 Paragons will be ludicrously high - to the point where when Ka'roz is the last bug standing, your tanks may very well be one-shot through their active mitigation if externals are not rotated on them.

    The normal-mode version of the encounter is basically unchanged on 25-man. You will want to do exactly the same as on 10-man. You will simply need more people soaking an Aim, and Kunchongs will have more health, but there will not be additional spawns.




    Garrosh

    10M: We use 2 tanks 2 healers and 6 dps. We use the stack strat for P1, everyone just stack, kill weapon that falls on top of us, and then aoe adds+garrosh. For p3, we ignore the adds, clean up the MC, and burn the boss
    25M: Will the stack strat still work for 25M? How many dps do we need to kill the engineer (is 1 dps still sufficient)? How many MC goes out per cast? Can the adds be ignored in P3?

    Stacking constantly is not a viable tactic for anything but the first weapon on Heroic, which you will be cleaving down during lust. Warbringers on Heroic will fixate on random raid members, and thus the raid damage during this phase is extremely high. You have 16 seconds to do the first intermission before it is generally accepted that wiping is necessary; the order of intermissions is fixed on Heroic, and you will therefore always get Jade Serpent, Terrace, Red Crane, although if you see a 3rd intermission, you are most likely screwed anyway. On 25-man, you may want to consider bringing a 3rd tank to kite the adds instead of attempting to kill them, seeing as the likelyhood of screw-ups increases proportionately with number of raiders present. I will not speak of the last, Heroic-only phase, as I have yet to see this in person and thus cannot comment adequately on how it is best handled.

    You should be able to handle the Engineer with 3 strong burst classes, and as far as I am aware, there are 5 MCs during each MC.

    The normal-mode version of this encounter does not change significantly outside of greater add (including Engineer) HP and more MC'ed players. You should still be able to stack and cleave on Normal, as well as ignore p3 adds.

    Last edited by PraisetheSun; 2014-01-13 at 06:39 AM.

  7. #7
    If you're doing Spoils on Heroic, I recommend 5 healing. The odd healer out starts on the Mantid side and then simply crosses over to be on the other group's Mantid side as well.

    Also for Thok: Paladins. Paladins Paladins Paladins. Recommend 7 healing if you can and just bringing lots of Paladins for Devotion Aura (Palis can be any spec, doesn't matter).

    Heroic Recruitment -- Hersh's multi-PoV kill vids. -- Raids & Dungeons & Hunter kitty
    no one huntars like gaston

  8. #8
    The heroic version of the encounter is 3-tanked by all but the foolhardiest in both sizes. 2 tanks up top, 4? healers (enough to ensure tanks never have Toxic Mist, and preferably no Mistweavers to avoid Tombs in melee), all of your melee up top. Disc priests and a warrior or monk tank + all your ranged downstairs. You can also do this with all your melee downstairs to be completely sure you will not get Iron Tombs in melee, but your melee will loathe you for it.
    You need at least 3 players out of melee range to not spawn tombs.

    There are still 2 pandas. On Heroic, 4-healing is basically a necessity. You will want to open the boxes in an order closely resembling the following - Both pandas, first large and 2 smalls, mediums to 34 (never two golems at once), second large and two more smalls. This will bring you to 50 energy with as few sparks as possible. It is advised to drag the large crate adds into the middle of the room so your tanks and DPS may cleave onto the sparks and statues. You will still want to lust on Mogu side.
    5 heals makes it much easier, mantid can be rough if you don't get the healing buff.

    On heroic, in current gear, I hear of guilds bringing as many as 7-8 healers - it all depends on how many strong raid CDs and silence-immunities like HoP and Devo Aura you have available. At no point can you go above 29 stacks, as the 30th stack on heroic will one-shot your raid. Poison, Ice, Fire is still the most commonly seen order, but be aware that you may need to shorten the Poison phase if your healers are not strong, as the raid damage when both Screeches and Bat AoE are going out is tremendous. So long as ranged DoT the jailer, tanks and melee should be able to finish it off in due time.
    8 healers is pretty standard for first kills and has been from the beginning. You can get a 30th roar as long as that is the one that pushes you, the 31st will basically 1 shot everyone. On 25 the fight is much more about using cds appropriately than anything else. When bats are down is t he most dangerous part, everyone should use personal cds there and toss in an extra raid cd if you can (we use a bop'd ele shaman AGing). If you push the boss around 28-30 stacks and do a kite phase that clicks on the gate when he hits 11 (I believe this is the number), you can have 3 min cds up for every phase.

  9. #9
    Hi, if you are referring to normal mode I can give you some answers, looks like someone else gave you answers for heroic already.

    Immerseus: We use 2 tanks 6 healers (we default to 6 healers as we seem to have several people in the guild that enjoy healing). I personally wouldn't drop to 3-4 healers even if the fight is easy to heal. You will get a ton of healing puddles in the later split phases that you will need an even spread of healers to heal them up.

    Protectors: Bane I believe is around 6 applications? The rest are same as 10 man. We have never given the mark of anguish to the tanks but if you do so in 10 man I am sure it will be fine in 25 man as well.

    Norushen: This guy takes much more coordination for orb order than 10 man. We send 3 dps at the start and from then on 2 dps and 1 healer. We assign everyone a player to call out to go down after they exit the realm. We have dps that have yet to be purified or healers soak the orbs. We end up with about 5-6 dps that never get purified.

    Sha: You will get every prison activated (12 total spots to stand on). Assign one group to break the set on each corner. You will also get 2 big adds, one on each side of the room. Two healers get gift each time and I think there are 4-6 debuffs (sorry don't remember exact number) that go out with each application.

    Galakras: We send 1 tank 1 healer and 3-5 dps up to tower. We started off with 5 but recently we can send up 3 and it goes down just fine, would all depend on your dps. Stacking and burning at the end works fine (of course making sure to run the orb behind the group).

    Juggernaut: Though probably unnecessary we use 3 tanks for this just so one can focus on the bombs. But the number of bombs is same as 10 man (only 3) so if your tanks can deal with them in 10 they should not have an issue in 25.

    Shaman: We use 3 tanks and split the raid. 2 tanks and 3 healers inside the building (the tanks take a good chunk of damage and the outside group doesnt take much until close to the end). 1 tank, 3 healers and all dps outside.

    Nazgrim: Same number of adds just more health on 25 man. I think we hero towards the end of the fight, and make sure to at least kill the shaman and have someone interrupt the mage at the last 10%.

    Malkorok: There are more puddles, 6-7. Just make sure the healers are spread evenly around the room with ranged spread evenly between them. Everyone needs to be ready to soak a puddle near them. We always have melee soak the closest to the melee pile. Same number of smashes. We killed it the first time with 7 healers but have subsequently gone to 6.

    Spoils: We have 3 healers each side but as I said before we just have a default of 6 healers so didn't make any of them go dps cause we could kill the fight without dropping healers. But the damage is low enough that I am sure you could 2 heal each side. Still only 2 pandas on each side.

    Thok: We used 2 tanks and 8 healers but have also done 7 heals when we didn't have our 8th available. Same order and use hero at start. Make use of all your available raid CDs as you will have a lot of them in 25 man and you should be able to get up to 20-25 stacks in the first phase. Jailer is easily dealt with me melee/tanks.

    Blackfuse: We send 3 melee dps up for each belt (think the first kill we had 4 each). If your tanks can deal with the Shredder in 10 man alone they should be able to as well in 25 man.

    Paragons: We use the same order. Only 1 aim per cast, I have only killed this on 25 man so not sure if the damage is higher in 25 man and may need to make sure more people soak it. Can't really give any tips for it as I haven't seen it on 10 man.

    Garrosh: Though we haven't killed it yet I can still answer your questions. In our strategy in phase 1 we all stack on boss and burn the weapon when it comes out making sure to have a couple CDs up for each. We are able to have 1 dps kill the engineer though we started our attempts with 2 dps. You will still get 8 empowered whirling adds and 3 MCs.

    Have fun with 25 man! My guild too made this switch this expac (in middle of ToT) and has been great fun ever since.

  10. #10
    There are some threads about this topic already, I gave some input (mostly about the numbers on Norushen and Galakras) in this one. I hope there are some infos and additions that help in there.

  11. #11
    You should clarify normal or heroic for which bosses that you want info on.

  12. #12
    Stack and AoE.............................

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