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  1. #61
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    No-one is saying that they should stop charging for the service however they should not charge those that find themselves on realms that were previously populated but are now empty to move to more populated realms.
    So your solution is to make it worse for those that don't wish to transfer off that realm? Why not just propose closing the realm all together. And who decides the population needed for a realm to get free transfers off? Where would they get free transfer too? Another dead realm? A high pop realm? A medium pop realm?

    What if not every choose to transfer, even for free, wouldn't the free transfer now stop those people from enjoying the game?That would mean the original reason for you wanting free transfers, enjoyment, isn't being solved by free transfers. But I'm guessing at that point you wouldn't care any more because you got to transfer for free right?

    And if people have been complaining about low or unbalanced populations for years, why is it that you were arguing earlier that it started with Cataclysm and continued with MoP? You do realize that Blizzard created CRZ at the end of Cataclysm, and is connecting realms at the end of MoP. They are doing stuff about it but like I said before it can't be instant.

    Would you rather then rush to merge servers and screw something up? How many players would quit if Blizzard screwed up their characters? Or even some random internet persons characters? How many people would panic or fear for their own if another servers got screwed up? But its a good thing that Blizzard has a service since 2006 for those that are tired of waiting for a long list of fixes (FCM, New player recommended servers, Paid transfer discounts, CRZ, Recruit a friend, Scroll of Resurrection) that haven't done enough.

    You can either pay to have it your way now, or wait for Connected realms to finish and have a populated server again. Which may or may not actually solve the real issues with your enjoyment of the game. As I doubt having High populations on every server would still have kept people playing the game. After all you made the claim earlier that it was Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria that made people quit, and not the realm populations themselves.
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Blizzard is ensuring that their customers are provided with an enjoyable experience, which is why they are merging servers.
    Maybe.

    Still waiting to hear what their solution is for the low-pop/dead faction on high overall population server will be. All those on dead servers appear to have something to look forward too. Guess I should have abandoned my guild and friends back before the server balance went lopsided.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So your solution is to make it worse for those that don't wish to transfer off that realm? Why not just propose closing the realm all together. And who decides the population needed for a realm to get free transfers off? Where would they get free transfer too? Another dead realm? A high pop realm? A medium pop realm?
    There's a tipping point where a realm/faction is all but dead, and leaving the server in that state - whether by it not being connected or by not providing transfers - does nothing to improve the situation. For an entire server, connected realms are the solution...dead/dying factions so far don't appear to be getting that same chance.
    Last edited by Berethos08; 2014-01-17 at 12:17 AM.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So your solution is to make it worse for those that don't wish to transfer off that realm? Why not just propose closing the realm all together. And who decides the population needed for a realm to get free transfers off? Where would they get free transfer too? Another dead realm? A high pop realm? A medium pop realm?

    What if not every choose to transfer, even for free, wouldn't the free transfer now stop those people from enjoying the game?That would mean the original reason for you wanting free transfers, enjoyment, isn't being solved by free transfers. But I'm guessing at that point you wouldn't care any more because you got to transfer for free right?

    And if people have been complaining about low or unbalanced populations for years, why is it that you were arguing earlier that it started with Cataclysm and continued with MoP? You do realize that Blizzard created CRZ at the end of Cataclysm, and is connecting realms at the end of MoP. They are doing stuff about it but like I said before it can't be instant.

    Would you rather then rush to merge servers and screw something up? How many players would quit if Blizzard screwed up their characters? Or even some random internet persons characters? How many people would panic or fear for their own if another servers got screwed up? But its a good thing that Blizzard has a service since 2006 for those that are tired of waiting for a long list of fixes (FCM, New player recommended servers, Paid transfer discounts, CRZ, Recruit a friend, Scroll of Resurrection) that haven't done enough.

    You can either pay to have it your way now, or wait for Connected realms to finish and have a populated server again. Which may or may not actually solve the real issues with your enjoyment of the game. As I doubt having High populations on every server would still have kept people playing the game. After all you made the claim earlier that it was Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria that made people quit, and not the realm populations themselves.
    If they don't wish to transfer why would it make the realm worse for them? And if they felt the realm was worse they could avail themselves of the same service that others used to find a better realm.

    How so? I am struggling to make sense of what you are trying to say here.

    I don't believe that I did argue that the issues started with Cata. CRZ did not address the issues of low population realms and brought many of the negatives but none of the positives of a high population realm there were many threads detailing the exact problems, but I guess because they don't fit with your view you ignored them.

    Why would they screw up merging realms? They have performed the process several times on Western realms and even more times on Asian realms are you saying that Blizzard incompetent and cannot perform a database merge without screwing it up?

    Or people can take that (not so) secret third option and just stop giving Blizzard money. I doubt that high populations on every server would have kept people playing as well. Your last sentence doesn't make any sense.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    They've been doing 5+ servers a week again. If you expected connections to continue throughout the holidays you're high. Since they started with the lowest pop servers the overall effect will be slower. Some of those servers had 50-100 people total online during prime time. So it might take 20 before they reach medium but they will get there.

    Plus with 100 million unique accounts, up to 50 toons per account, you have a potential for a lot of pissed off players when all their names are taken and their addons are f'd because their character's name has changed. Returning players would be met with a shit storm of issues that could potentially cause them to toss their hands in the air and quit again.

    That's why they didn't do forced mergers. They actually care about their players. (Incoming negativity)
    Have you been paying attention? Obviously not, because the reports coming from these not-so-merged servers have been completely negative. Realms are still self-segregating, guilds and groups are discriminating against people from merged realms, and, in general, it hasn't solved anything it set out to solve (except, maybe, making more things available on auction houses).

    Again, it's a pussyfooting fix that isn't FIXING ANYTHING.
    It is making problems WORSE.
    The community isn't being strengthened, it's being torn apart even further.

    People will get the hell over name losses. You're making all the same tired excuses people lobbed at Bioware when they said they were doing forced merges and, guess what: People dealt with it. The community aspects of the game got better for a short time before the F2P announcement screwed it up.

    If they cared about their players they'd stop with these bullshit, half-assed, "fixes" and actually MERGE servers. No one can then pull this segregation/elitist crap ("Oh you're from server X, they're all bads, we don't want you") because they'll all be from the same server. Time and history is not on your side on this argument. As subscription numbers slide, they will reduce overall hardware and that WILL mean merging servers. Better to do it now when there's still a hope at fostering a community than when the game is on its last legs and just existing to be milked for profit.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Captiosus View Post
    Have you been paying attention? Obviously not, because the reports coming from these not-so-merged servers have been completely negative. Realms are still self-segregating, guilds and groups are discriminating against people from merged realms, and, in general, it hasn't solved anything it set out to solve (except, maybe, making more things available on auction houses).

    Again, it's a pussyfooting fix that isn't FIXING ANYTHING.
    It is making problems WORSE.
    The community isn't being strengthened, it's being torn apart even further.

    People will get the hell over name losses. You're making all the same tired excuses people lobbed at Bioware when they said they were doing forced merges and, guess what: People dealt with it. The community aspects of the game got better for a short time before the F2P announcement screwed it up.

    If they cared about their players they'd stop with these bullshit, half-assed, "fixes" and actually MERGE servers. No one can then pull this segregation/elitist crap ("Oh you're from server X, they're all bads, we don't want you") because they'll all be from the same server. Time and history is not on your side on this argument. As subscription numbers slide, they will reduce overall hardware and that WILL mean merging servers. Better to do it now when there's still a hope at fostering a community than when the game is on its last legs and just existing to be milked for profit.
    In fairness I think the solution that Blizzard have come up with where they merge realms but allow players to keep their names is pretty good. I think part of the problems players are experiencing will die down in time once populations become large enough that trade PUGs become commonplace.

  6. #66
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Why would they screw up merging realms? They have performed the process several times on Western realms and even more times on Asian realms are you saying that Blizzard incompetent and cannot perform a database merge without screwing it up?
    Why would they screw up? http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...64298?page=1#1 is one instance where something went wrong. Each time they do it something could go wrong. That is why they are doing it in weekly batches and not connecting every group on the same night. Just because something could go wrong doesn't mean Blizzard is incompetent. They are taking it slow and not rushing things because Blizzard is competent and they know full well that something can go wrong.

    Its something you learn when working with databases and code, that stuff can go wrong when you don't expect it to. Its how you know bugs happen.

    If high populations won't keep people playing, then why would free character transfers keep people playing? You keep arguing as if free character transfers would keep people playing WoW when your first foray into the topic blamed the things Blizzard did during MoP and Cata. Which is it the content of Cata and MoP lost half of the subscribers or not being able to transfer their character for free?

    Also I think you know full well how free transfers would make a realm population worse for those that don't want to transfer. Because those that want to, but don't want to pay, would leave the server making it even more of a dead server. Which would no doubt lead to over crowding because as history has shown, the community flocks to certain servers instead of spreading out to medium population servers.

    It doesn't matter if transfers are free or not. People still won't transfer in a balanced fashion, which doesn't solve any of the problems you are trying to solve with free transfers. There will still be dead realms, but they will die faster. Realms will still have faction imbalances, because people will transfer to the realm best for their faction. High population realms will have enough more crowding and queues as more people go there over other "dying" servers.

    I never ignored thread with CRZ problems, perhaps you shouldn't start creating arguments when it wasn't even mentioned in this thread. CRZ was an attempt to fix the problems of low population in low level zones. Good or ill you can't deny that basic fact about its intent which has no bearing on you thinking I'm ignoring threads in some twisted white knighting of CRZ.
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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If high populations won't keep people playing, then why would free character transfers keep people playing? You keep arguing as if free character transfers would keep people playing WoW when your first foray into the topic blamed the things Blizzard did during MoP and Cata. Which is it the content of Cata and MoP lost half of the subscribers or not being able to transfer their character for free?

    Also I think you know full well how free transfers would make a realm population worse for those that don't want to transfer. Because those that want to, but don't want to pay, would leave the server making it even more of a dead server. Which would no doubt lead to over crowding because as history has shown, the community flocks to certain servers instead of spreading out to medium population servers.

    It doesn't matter if transfers are free or not. People still won't transfer in a balanced fashion, which doesn't solve any of the problems you are trying to solve with free transfers. There will still be dead realms, but they will die faster. Realms will still have faction imbalances, because people will transfer to the realm best for their faction. High population realms will have enough more crowding and queues as more people go there over other "dying" servers.
    I do not keep arguing that free character transfers would keep people playing WOW, although it would most certainly not harm retention. My first foray into the thread was in response to the claim that players were to blame for dead realms which I stated that it was not the players that developed two expansions that lost several million players. I am sure that you will respond that Blizzard were only doing what the players wanted and that they were innocent victims who were duped by those nasty forum haters.

    How would free transfers make it worse for players that do not want to move? Surely if they have the option to move and do not want to they are happy with the situation? Or are you suggesting that players should continue to play on dead realms on the off chance that they might upset someone that likes being on a dead realm and why does giving Blizzard money suddenly make this all okay?

    I never said that free transfers would result in balanced realms. Why do all the issues and drawbacks you list go away when Blizzard receive money for transfers?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berethos08 View Post
    Maybe.

    Still waiting to hear what their solution is for the low-pop/dead faction on high overall population server will be. All those on dead servers appear to have something to look forward too. Guess I should have abandoned my guild and friends back before the server balance went lopsided.

    There's a tipping point where a realm/faction is all but dead, and leaving the server in that state - whether by it not being connected or by not providing transfers - does nothing to improve the situation. For an entire server, connected realms are the solution...dead/dying factions so far don't appear to be getting that same chance.
    If you are talking about PvP realms, where ratios naturally gravitate to at least 90-10 in favor of one faction, then:

    (1) If you are on a full realm, you can use FCM.
    (2) If you are on the low-pop side of a high-pop realm, there is probably no help coming for you.
    (3) If you are on a low/med-pop realm, you will eventually be merged, but Blizzard is not going to try to use connecting in order to level population ratios.

    PvP realms always become lopsided. As far as I can tell, Blizzard has somewhat publicly decided to treat them as single-faction realms.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    If you are talking about PvP realms, where ratios naturally gravitate to at least 90-10 in favor of one faction, then:

    (1) If you are on a full realm, you can use FCM.
    (2) If you are on the low-pop side of a high-pop realm, there is probably no help coming for you.
    (3) If you are on a low/med-pop realm, you will eventually be merged, but Blizzard is not going to try to use connecting in order to level population ratios.

    PvP realms always become lopsided. As far as I can tell, Blizzard has somewhat publicly decided to treat them as single-faction realms.
    No, PVE realms become lopsided as well. Mostly towards the Alliance. On my Ally realm, there are very few Horde left and they are leaving or faction-changing because there is almost no guilds and groups, and the AH is devoid of any items.

    But on PVE at least you can quest and level without getting camped 24/7 if you are the minority faction. If you are PVP, you are screwed, and that is why PVP realms tend to be much more imbalanced, suffer more population problems, and are in need of Connecting.

    This all comes down to Blizzard not giving a fuck when it comes to balancing server population. Connected realms are just happening, but they should have been done years ago. In Asian realms we had server merges occurring since TBC! Meanwhile lots of US and EU realms languished for so long and became dead with not a single action done by Blizzard.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    No, PVE realms become lopsided as well. Mostly towards the Alliance. On my Ally realm, there are very few Horde left and they are leaving or faction-changing because there is almost no guilds and groups, and the AH is devoid of any items.

    But on PVE at least you can quest and level without getting camped 24/7 if you are the minority faction. If you are PVP, you are screwed, and that is why PVP realms tend to be much more imbalanced, suffer more population problems, and are in need of Connecting.

    This all comes down to Blizzard not giving a fuck when it comes to balancing server population. Connected realms are just happening, but they should have been done years ago. In Asian realms we had server merges occurring since TBC! Meanwhile lots of US and EU realms languished for so long and became dead with not a single action done by Blizzard.
    Blizzard isn't going to do anything to force imbalanced PvP realms toward balance.

    PvP realms are NATURALLY lopsided. Anything you try to do to change that is just a waste of time.

  11. #71
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I do not keep arguing that free character transfers would keep people playing WOW, although it would most certainly not harm retention.
    Not harming retention means it would keep people playing WoW. Retention means people keep playing. You need to stop arguing with yourself and creating the arguments you think I'll state. The key factor you over look is that there were dead servers prior to Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria which means that those two expansions can not be the root cause of dead servers. Otherwise what caused them prior to those two expansions loss of subscribers?

    Players have proven time and again that they will go to the "popular" servers. Of course the players are not solely responsible for dead servers but you can not ignore the communities role in dead servers. And how people flock to Area 52 for example instead of other low-medium pop servers. Or people go to a server with a faction imbalance but only as the faction that has more players. The loss of subscribers with expansions have nothing to do with players killing other servers by going to the popular ones for PvP, PvE, Horde, and Alliance.

    I never said the issues with realms go away when blizzard receives money for transfers. You keep arguing that Blizzard should give people free transfers to help with dead realms. And I am telling you that those issues will still exist even with free transfers because the cost of transfers isn't hindering enough people from transferring currently. It will just make all the current problems occur faster.
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  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Blizzard isn't going to do anything to force imbalanced PvP realms toward balance.

    PvP realms are NATURALLY lopsided. Anything you try to do to change that is just a waste of time.
    It's more that a small imbalance tends to become a large imbalance over time.
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  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Blizzard isn't going to do anything to force imbalanced PvP realms toward balance.

    PvP realms are NATURALLY lopsided. Anything you try to do to change that is just a waste of time.
    Play any RvR games? There are a lot of things Blizzard can do to encourage balance, not necessarily force it. But the only thing they do is FCMs, which nobody takes because players are not dumb. The encouragement needs to be a tangible gameplay benefit.

    The other thing is, Blizzard fails hard at creating content that promotes balanced play. Take Timeless Isle for example, it only benefits the majority faction, and the bigger the lopside, the better time you have in TI. If you are the minority on that server, you might as well don't bother going there at all.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    Play any RvR games? There are a lot of things Blizzard can do to encourage balance, not necessarily force it. But the only thing they do is FCMs, which nobody takes because players are not dumb. The encouragement needs to be a tangible gameplay benefit.

    The other thing is, Blizzard fails hard at creating content that promotes balanced play. Take Timeless Isle for example, it only benefits the majority faction, and the bigger the lopside, the better time you have in TI. If you are the minority on that server, you might as well don't bother going there at all.
    I have no idea what you're talking about unless you're talking about a PvP realm. 99.98% of activities on Timeless Isle are not affected by faction balance on a PvE realm.

    If you're on a PvP realm that's out of whack then the above comments apply.

    Players do not want balanced PvP realms. Therefore they do not have them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    It's more that a small imbalance tends to become a large imbalance over time.
    And a large imbalance never becomes smaller.

    It is an exclusively one-way journey. There is no point in trying to stop it or correct it.

  15. #75
    Blizzard should consider doing what LOTRO did.. just accept the loss of subscribers and start merging more servers and maybe have about 10-25 massive populated servers... but than i think people would still complain.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    I have no idea what you're talking about unless you're talking about a PvP realm. 99.98% of activities on Timeless Isle are not affected by faction balance on a PvE realm.

    If you're on a PvP realm that's out of whack then the above comments apply.
    Yes, I'm talking imbalance on a PVP realm. I'm responding to your statement that PVP servers are naturally lopsided, when it's simply Blizzard inaction over the years that has contributed to them. Blizzard desn't set any boundaries or design content that can be enjoyed by majority and minority faction at the same time in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    It's more that a small imbalance tends to become a large imbalance over time.
    Yes, this is what I mean. A lot of PVP server were pretty balanced and had good population in the beginning. It all goes to hell when Blizzard allows unrestricted and uncontrolled character transfers. Take US Tichondrius for example, it was a relatively balanced PVP server until the streamers and e-celebrities decided to move to Horde on that server. Then a bunch of fanboys also followed, causing that server balance to deteriorate. All the while Blizzard does nothing to stop it. Now it's what? over 70% Horde and ever going downhill fast? Soon it will be like Illidan or Mal'ganis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Players do not want balanced PvP realms. Therefore they do not have them.
    Players also want free gear in the mail, and a host of other things that are detrimental to the game. Doesn't mean Blizz has to follow along and let the players do whatever they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    And a large imbalance never becomes smaller.
    This could have been 100% avoided if Blizzard stepped up and did something before the imbalance became larger.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Blizzard isn't going to do anything to force imbalanced PvP realms toward balance.

    PvP realms are NATURALLY lopsided. Anything you try to do to change that is just a waste of time.
    You can offer in-game bonuses to players on a lopsided server. Incentives that make it worthwhile to play despite the imbalance. Ways to generate honour more quickly for example. It is what you do with any system that can tend towards an extreme, you put counter-measures in place to keep it balanced. There are certainly options available that don't end with "we can't do anything, lets just not bother".
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  18. #78
    While we can debate how much Blizz is at fault here (quite a bit), one thing I have for the OP is to consider either transferring or rolling a toon on a different server and play there for a while to make a final decision.

    I was in the same situation as you (almost the same) our guild was on Alliance side on Dunemaul-EU. We decided to move to another realm before MoP hit and that was the best decision ever. I can't fully describe how much my quality of life went up since then (also thanks to that move I made my long time goal in WoW came true - got a spectral tiger). Even though paying for something that Blizz should make free for low pop servers doesn't sit right with me, the pros outweigh the cons.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Not harming retention means it would keep people playing WoW. Retention means people keep playing. You need to stop arguing with yourself and creating the arguments you think I'll state. The key factor you over look is that there were dead servers prior to Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria which means that those two expansions can not be the root cause of dead servers. Otherwise what caused them prior to those two expansions loss of subscribers?

    Players have proven time and again that they will go to the "popular" servers. Of course the players are not solely responsible for dead servers but you can not ignore the communities role in dead servers. And how people flock to Area 52 for example instead of other low-medium pop servers. Or people go to a server with a faction imbalance but only as the faction that has more players. The loss of subscribers with expansions have nothing to do with players killing other servers by going to the popular ones for PvP, PvE, Horde, and Alliance.

    I never said the issues with realms go away when blizzard receives money for transfers. You keep arguing that Blizzard should give people free transfers to help with dead realms. And I am telling you that those issues will still exist even with free transfers because the cost of transfers isn't hindering enough people from transferring currently. It will just make all the current problems occur faster.
    No it does not it means that it would not make the problem worse. I did not say there were not dead servers before Cata, in fact I stated the opposite, nor did I say that Cata or Mop were the route cause of dead servers although it is logical to say that if the overall population has declined by 40-odd% during these expansions then realm populations will, also, be effected. It is slightly amusing that you keep telling me what I mean and then when I correct you you claim I am arguing with myself.

    Players go to popular servers because they are not prepared to take risk going to a less popular server and then having to pay another transfer fee if they do not like it there. If the service was free you would find players going to more populated but less popular servers as there would be no financial risk if they do not like it there.

    If realm transfers were dead realms would still exist but those on the dead realms would be there through choice and not because they don't want to pay to move. I am sure that I have read on these very forums, many, many times, that the fee is to act as deterrent to those who would abuse a free system and now you are claiming that it does not hinder people transferring I would think that in a game where alts are common place the fee is a huge hindrance. If free transfers would cause the problems to manifest quicker that is a problem for Blizzard to sort out.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    You can offer in-game bonuses to players on a lopsided server. Incentives that make it worthwhile to play despite the imbalance. Ways to generate honour more quickly for example. It is what you do with any system that can tend towards an extreme, you put counter-measures in place to keep it balanced. There are certainly options available that don't end with "we can't do anything, lets just not bother".
    No one wants to play on the low-pop side of a PvP server regardless of how many incentives you throw at them.

    The only way that realm populations can be balanced is with force, and Blizzard is never going to do that.

    The community decided that PvP realms must be lopsided, and the community got what it wanted. (The community doesn't actually like PvP all that much, just the PvP "address.")

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