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  1. #1

    Garrosh 25 HC... Kill or Kite Adds?..

    Hey everyone!

    My Raid had currently ~130 Trys on Garrsoh and we are working on the 2nd Emp.W. after the ToES Transition...

    Atm we Play with 3 Tanks and our MonkTank trys to kite the adds but that doesn't work out so well and looks pretty risky/clumsy to me. Sometimes we have 2-3 adds in the Raid or he get caught by the pack he is kiting.We already help him as much as we can (stuns, slows, knockback, aggrosuport) but it simply look pretty risky everytime...

    So, since am the RL i was thinking about killing the Adds.

    If everything would went well, we would trigger P3 after the 2nd Emp.WW. so i'd like to know how much of a DPS loss would killing Adds be instade kiting. On the other Hand we could take one more DPS so he should be much lower on HP after the ToES transition???

    Some Feedback would be nice, maybe from someone who played both tactiks?

    Thx and sorry for my bad english :P

  2. #2
    High Overlord Berianther's Avatar
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    I can assure you killing adds is the harder strat on 25 mans. Make sure you kite tank plans out the kiting path, and if you have 2-3 adds in the raid, you can easily kill them if you manage to separate them.

  3. #3
    100% kite. Make sure you he's kiting in the proper path (adds are passing right by ranged just after whirl finishes) and you mass grip them all together followed by a stun or something. Our monk kiter uses Charging Ox Wave and stuns midway through Whirling when they're near ranged and then our DK grips them together.
    Frozendruid of Temerity - 14/14HC @ 12 hours/week.

  4. #4
    Not rly keeping up with 25 Garrosh, but is Method still the only guild in the world to kill the adds on a first kill?
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Not rly keeping up with 25 Garrosh, but is Method still the only guild in the world to kill the adds on a first kill?
    Probably not the only one but I don't think any of the other top guilds did it.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Alzu View Post
    Probably not the only one but I don't think any of the other top guilds did it.
    Well, I know that by the time we killed Garrosh they were the only one, but have not heard anything after that.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Well, I know that by the time we killed Garrosh they were the only one, but have not heard anything after that.
    I doubt that killing the adds would be news-worthy so if there is some guild, they have gone unnoticed. I was just speculating when I said the probably is some other guild.

  8. #8
    sorry to say that but i have a painful experience for exactly what you said,your monk simply is bad,we had 250 try on this fight until i realize our monk is bad,last night i brought an alt with 550 il and he learn all the job in like 10 try and now we are in p4,should be a kill next reset.

  9. #9
    Not rly keeping up with 25 Garrosh, but is Method still the only guild in the world to kill the adds on a first kill?
    No, we did that too. Not by choice though, we simply haven't had a monk at that time. Killing the adds added about a week of additional progression but is very doable.

    www .youtube. com /watch?v=_Mp4UhuCx_I (remove the spaces)

    edit: The main changes are on the healing/raid cooldown side, apart from the obvious coordination challenge while killing the adds. We did it with Monk/Priest/Paladin/Shaman and used a hilariously big and detailed spreadsheet for coordination/raid cooldowns.
    Last edited by Neqan; 2014-01-21 at 10:03 AM.

  10. #10
    Thx for the Feedback so far

    Quote Originally Posted by Tene View Post
    sorry to say that but i have a painful experience for exactly what you said,your monk simply is bad,we had 250 try on this fight until i realize our monk is bad,last night i brought an alt with 550 il and he learn all the job in like 10 try and now we are in p4,should be a kill next reset.
    Well normaly he is pretty reliable an a very good Tank in my POV (looking back at T14,15,16), but i think maybe kiting is just his personal "weakspot"? :P dunno we will see after some more trys...

  11. #11

  12. #12
    It is much easier to kite the adds. Just have your monk practice with it and you will get it right. If 1-2 adds get into the raid, that's fine, they will get AoEd down and are most likely not going to cause any harm. If it's 3 adds just have an assigned person pull one out and kill it and then AoE the other 2. They have very low health unless they get buffed up, 1 person can easily kill one fast.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Neqan View Post
    No, we did that too. Not by choice though, we simply haven't had a monk at that time. Killing the adds added about a week of additional progression but is very doable.

    www .youtube. com /watch?v=_Mp4UhuCx_I (remove the spaces)

    edit: The main changes are on the healing/raid cooldown side, apart from the obvious coordination challenge while killing the adds. We did it with Monk/Priest/Paladin/Shaman and used a hilariously big and detailed spreadsheet for coordination/raid cooldowns.
    Catastrophe did it too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOSiUXb2zl0

    Kiting is by far the easier way to go of the two. Too many stuns/pushbacks can be detrimental to your kiter as it fucks up the pattern/kite path he has planned ahead of time (so maybe he'll end up too far away from the spawning adds during whirl if many stuns and knocks are used, or he'll end up too far ahead of the spawning adds if not enough are used). Your best bet is to limit your stuns to ONE stun, right as the new adds are spawning (we use a hunter binding arrow) in the middle of the line of adds you're spawning, then gripping the new on top of the old and keep going.
    The BEST thing you can do to ensure your monk's survival, is laying out plenty of feathers throughout the encounters. With the speedboosts he'll be able to readjust his position as needed, without it interfering with the kite path he's taking.

  14. #14
    Bloodsail Admiral Pencil's Avatar
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    You're 25man. Kite and consider yourself lucky.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Catastrophe did it too. [/url]

    .
    Yes and no, they had a kiter monk but only used him for 2 waves (their video at ~9:50), we played completly without a kiter monk. Catastrophe's tactic is a very smart hybrid since the hardest part of the kill strat is the wave with mind controls and adds at the same time. And on that wave they kited. That strat is easier for the kiting monk and at the same time easier than the kill strat. Maybe OP should try that.
    Last edited by Neqan; 2014-01-21 at 11:43 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Neqan View Post
    Yes and no, they had a kiter monk but only used him for 2 waves (their video at ~9:50), we played completly without a kiter monk. That is a very smart hybrid tactic since the hardest part of the kill strat is the wave with mind controls and adds at the same time. And on that wave they kited.
    To be fair, I'd say any guild that doesn't kite the last wave in P3 are doing it an extremely dumb and inefficient way (no offense intended towards you) - it's true that they failed the dps check by about 1.5% so they had to kite a second wave of adds, but the one wave in P3 that you should be getting at this point, should be kited (it's what, 2 months since the kill?) - the last part of the fight is easily solo tanked, and it's far better / more efficient to kite that specific wave (so you skip getting the second wave in that phase). Any tank can kite the adds for the half minute or so it takes to push the boss, with help from CC / speed boosts from other classes (priest feathers, ursols, knockbacks, yada yada). You even do it yourself with your fourth wave - but chances are that you could have pushed the extra 5% dps on the boss if you'd just done it with the third instead of having to focus on killing adds and break MC's for 20-25 seconds where the boss' hp barely moved.

    The only reason for a kiter monk is because it has a passive ranged slow. If warriors had the same, they'd be just as efficient and mobile to kite - and ANY tank can grab aggro of them, pop a strong CD, and run like hell while getting the adds CC'd.

  17. #17
    My Raid had currently ~130 Trys on Garrsoh
    this is why i don't guild raid :> wipes don't give loot, so spending hours upon hours wipeing is no fun

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  18. #18
    You are absoloutly right in that it can be done in that way now, but we killed it on Nov 6 and Catastrophe did it on Nov 11. The gear was a bit different back then. There was no way not getting the 4th wave. And they missed it more like 5% (which at that time was a lot) and not 1,5%. The very last wave should of course be kited and can be very easily with the help of an dk with chillbains.
    Last edited by Neqan; 2014-01-21 at 12:10 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Draknalor186 View Post
    My Raid had currently ~130 Trys on Garrsoh
    this is why i don't guild raid :> wipes don't give loot, so spending hours upon hours wipeing is no fun
    loot=fun? Glad you aren't in my raid

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Neqan View Post
    You are absoloutly right in that it can be done in that way now, but we killed it on Nov 6 and Catastrophe did it on Nov 11. The gear was a bit different back then. There was no way not getting the 4th wave. And they missed it more like 5% and not 1,5%. The very last wave should of course be kitet an can be very easily with the help of an dk with chillbains.
    The boss pushes over at 2.4%, or 42M hp - not when he reaches zero (not sure if you are aware of this, considering your 5% statement). The whirl triggered at 57M hp. That's 150K additional DPS they needed to skip the whirl. Their average item level was .5 BEHIND yours, despite killing it a week after, on their first kill. In addition, you would have a pure DPS extra for the entire burn phase than they did, which is about 300K singletarget dps, at the very least (losing the offtank to kiting is perhaps -100K, but the vengeance on the main tank will largely make up for any other loss).
    So saying that it wasn't "doable" back then is just asinine. It was fully doable, you just didn't go for it. We killed it (with a kiter) on the 13th, so one week after you guys, and we were reliably (4 out of 5 times) pushing without the second whirl in P3. Sadly we didn't manage it on the kill (he started his cast at 62M, so 20M short - MC breaks took too long, bad placement of desecrate fucked positioning up etc), though, while our gear is slightly higher (.3 above Cata, .8 above yours), our itemisation was probably far worse in so far that untill progress was over, we got a total of 1 str Amp trinkets (still stuck on that, by the way) and 2 caster trinkets (one normal, one heroic). Considering Amp is what, a ~25-40K dps upgrade for most classes over old trinkets, that's... meh

    Point with all this is, yes, it was doable. Especially if you dropped a tank for another DPS to help the burst in P3 like you did. That you didn't is fair game, it was a hard check to meet and most guilds didn't reliably get it untill +575 Ilvl avg, but it was fully doable.

    Also, when giving advice to someone asking right now, obviously you won't want to give them outdated info - after all, the gear they have now should easily allow them to surpass the second whirl if the last set of adds are kited. That's what matters =P.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2014-01-21 at 12:16 PM.

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