Page 12 of 13 FirstFirst ...
2
10
11
12
13
LastLast
  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    Nothing to do with the spirits. Druids do all that by harnessing the nature itself aka messing with the system of Azeroth.
    Not only that, but the elementals (Neptulon, Ragnaros, etc) are different from the Elements themselves.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-cleave View Post
    Not only that, but the elementals (Neptulon, Ragnaros, etc) are different from the Elements themselves.
    Metzen said that when spirits attain physical form, they become elemental. Not sure how it works.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    Metzen said that when spirits attain physical form, they become elemental. Not sure how it works.
    When did he say that?

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Dwarves are literally descendants of Earth. If they can't at least communicate with Earth, then I don't want to play this game anymore.

    Trolls and Tauren are inherently tribal in nature, and often sought guidance from the spirits. They could also just have learned it from the Orcs. Makes sense for them too.

    Goblin was a stretch. I don't think giving Goblin the Shaman class was a good idea.

    Night Elves believe only in Elune as their goddess. They consider the elements harmful to nature, and a pox on Azeroth. No, it would not make any sense whatsoever for them to be Shaman.
    This. Although if they made Goblins able to be shaman (although, they are slight "perversions" of shaman, considering their totems are miniaturized oil rig looking mechanical ones) I'm sure they could figure out some way to implement Night Elf shaman as well. (A splinter group that doesn't hold Elune in the highest regard, perhaps.)

  5. #225
    The Insane
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Where Thrall and the Horde needs me to be
    Posts
    16,149
    Quote Originally Posted by Tuor View Post
    The fact that some Druids use arcane magic has been confirmed by the lore, but in this particular case i have no evidences, its just me that sees it that way.
    They do not use arcane magic, that's simply just an ingame mechanic.
    *broken link*
    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-cleave View Post
    When did he say that?
    His twitter.

  7. #227
    Over 9000! Snowraven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    European Union
    Posts
    9,091
    Quote Originally Posted by Tuor View Post
    In WC3 Tyrande was more like a Hunter, not a Paladin, but yes, it was about damage, not about healing.

    I understand the Nelf lore, understand they live in a stratified society were most females are fierce warriors (sentinels) and were males are Druids, the question here is, does all females and males are wariors and Druids? We have seen that the banned Highborne keeped their bond with the arcane magic (which in fact its also used by druids, shapeshifting isn't more then a form of arcane magic), some other Nelfs have become kind renegades (rogues)... But in a society that used to be imortal, how does lore justifies them not being Shamans? Shamanism is about nature much more then Druids that stil keep using arcane magic. It doesn't even hurt their belifs in Elune, being a Shaman is to manage nature in their pure state.
    You got some things wrong.
    Not all males were druids. Some were warriors, civilians etc, though yes, a considerable number of them was druids. Most druids were male, this is correct, only the odd one was a woman.
    All priestesses were female before WoW. Every single one of them. Unlike druids, there was no male priest to break the rule here.

    No, druidic magic is not a form of arcane magic, it's a form of nature magic. And the parts like startfall and stuff are granted by Elune actually.
    In the night elven army, rogues are not renegades, they are a branch of the army. Considering their entire army is based around sitting in the shadows, the rogue way of fighting is the norm, not an exception like for other races. In fact, rogues are revered members of many branches of the night elf army, including the Sentinels and the Watchers. If you think about it in gameplay mechanics, all watchers are rogues or druids.

    While I do agree with the fact that night elves should be shamans, shamanism is not connected with nature more then druidism. You could argue that shamanism is more connected with the natural world, but with nature? No.

  8. #228
    Stood in the Fire Steve the Sloth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Fort Collins, CO
    Posts
    433
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowraven View Post
    You got some things wrong.
    Not all males were druids. Some were warriors, civilians etc, though yes, a considerable number of them was druids. Most druids were male, this is correct, only the odd one was a woman.
    All priestesses were female before WoW. Every single one of them. Unlike druids, there was no male priest to break the rule here.

    No, druidic magic is not a form of arcane magic, it's a form of nature magic. And the parts like startfall and stuff are granted by Elune actually.
    In the night elven army, rogues are not renegades, they are a branch of the army. Considering their entire army is based around sitting in the shadows, the rogue way of fighting is the norm, not an exception like for other races. In fact, rogues are revered members of many branches of the night elf army, including the Sentinels and the Watchers. If you think about it in gameplay mechanics, all watchers are rogues or druids.

    While I do agree with the fact that night elves should be shamans, shamanism is not connected with nature more then druidism. You could argue that shamanism is more connected with the natural world, but with nature? No.
    This was so enjoyable to read, just gotta say. Thanks for the insight on those aspects of their culture.

  9. #229
    Brewmaster Doorsfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Prison
    Posts
    1,316
    I see no reason for Night elves to have the ability to be shamans that is "Lore-friendly".

    They have no history of it - There is little to no connection you could lay out them having in forms of communicating with the elements.

    They already have a divine presence that they revere.

    I fail to see any and all connections that would make this feel "right".

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowraven View Post
    While I do agree with the fact that night elves should be shamans, shamanism is not connected with nature more then druidism. You could argue that shamanism is more connected with the natural world, but with nature? No.
    Disgreed, I just think they connect to nature in different ways. Druids allow nature to take control of them, shamans ask nature to work through them.

  11. #231
    Banned The Fiend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Merry ol' England.
    Posts
    5,343
    The elements and ancestor spirits that compose the faith of the shaman are nothing like a druids ancient worship and nature balancing act.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bionics View Post
    This. Although if they made Goblins able to be shaman (although, they are slight "perversions" of shaman, considering their totems are miniaturized oil rig looking mechanical ones) I'm sure they could figure out some way to implement Night Elf shaman as well. (A splinter group that doesn't hold Elune in the highest regard, perhaps.)
    Goblin Shaman are Goblins who make pacts with the Elements like deals with contractors.

    Night Elf Shaman would make little sense.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowraven View Post
    You got some things wrong.
    Not all males were druids. Some were warriors, civilians etc, though yes, a considerable number of them was druids. Most druids were male, this is correct, only the odd one was a woman.
    All priestesses were female before WoW. Every single one of them. Unlike druids, there was no male priest to break the rule here.
    Incorrect, there were no female Druids, it was an entirely male sect.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Classiccs View Post
    This was so enjoyable to read, just gotta say. Thanks for the insight on those aspects of their culture.
    Too bad he's wrong on many accounts. The Night elf Army WAS the Sentinels, the Watchers were never part of it at all.

    The Watchers were a military group designed to watch over the barrow dens, they didn't answer to the priesthood of Elune OR the sentinels. And none of the female members of this organisation were druids.

  12. #232
    High Overlord Escariot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    hello
    Posts
    187
    Eventho Blizzard started ignoring Lore completely (ie Cow Paladins), they will never introduce NE shamans!

    The night elf culture prides itself on using the essence of nature (ie droods) and harvesting their abilities from that. Night elves would never NEVER manipulate the earth the way shamans do (ie. earthquakes, flying rock boulders) if anything Night Elves dont think highly of shamans, their culture hates those who abuse nature and use it to their own gains.

    They simply draw energy from being one with nature.

    i
    cast blessin' of the hood upon you...dem dat some heavy shit 4 sho

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowraven View Post
    You got some things wrong.
    Thanks for taking some time explaining it for us, i do not know everithing and its always nice when someone shares this kind of stuff, after all, even not being a roller player, wow lore is of interest to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowraven View Post
    Not all males were druids.
    I said that in my post, even it was in a very polished way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowraven View Post
    No, druidic magic is not a form of arcane magic, it's a form of nature magic. And the parts like startfall and stuff are granted by Elune actually.
    But the lore also says that they haven't banned all sources of arcane magic, this has been confirmed by Blizzard, the remainants of that arcane magic have been absoved by Druids... In-game Balance Druids also deal arcane damage, even that, as you have explained could be just a game mechanic.

    At my eyes, i have no source for it, its just me, shapeshifting its one of those forms of arcane magic, its obviously so similar to sheep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowraven View Post
    While I do agree with the fact that night elves should be shamans, shamanism is not connected with nature more then druidism. You could argue that shamanism is more connected with the natural world, but with nature? No.
    No, it only depends on your defenition of nature, you see nature as the flora and fauna of the world, someothers see the natural world as a whole, storms, lightnings etc.

    To me, nature isn't just the plants and animals but aswell the elements that created those plants and animals, because everithing in the world can be traced to those elements, they are the source of nature.

    I will post it again, the way i see Nelf shaman's, is someone that went to the wild stayed there for thousands of years, and learned how to manage the elements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosstafa View Post
    Disgreed, I just think they connect to nature in different ways. Druids allow nature to take control of them, shamans ask nature to work through them.
    This was one of the best descriptions of shamanism i've ever seen.
    Last edited by Tuor; 2014-01-19 at 01:25 PM.

  14. #234
    The Insane
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Where Thrall and the Horde needs me to be
    Posts
    16,149
    Quote Originally Posted by Escariot View Post
    Eventho Blizzard started ignoring Lore completely (ie Cow Paladins), they will never introduce NE shamans!

    The night elf culture prides itself on using the essence of nature (ie droods) and harvesting their abilities from that. Night elves would never NEVER manipulate the earth the way shamans do (ie. earthquakes, flying rock boulders) if anything Night Elves dont think highly of shamans, their culture hates those who abuse nature and use it to their own gains.

    They simply draw energy from being one with nature.
    Two quick things. First, the "creation" of the Sunwalker Order did never involve "ignoring lore", it involved creating new lore. Secondly, we don't know if they'll ever introduce Night Elf shamans,- it's their game and universe, not yours.
    *broken link*
    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  15. #235
    Banned The Fiend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Merry ol' England.
    Posts
    5,343
    Quote Originally Posted by Tuor View Post
    No, it only depends on your defenition of nature, you see nature as the flora and fauna of the world, someothers see the natural world as a whole, storms, lightnings etc.

    To me, nature isn't just the plants and animals but aswell the elements that created those plants and animals, because everithing in the world can be traced to those elements, they are the source of nature.

    I will post it again, the way i see Nelf shaman's, is someone that went to the wild stayed there for thousands of years, and learned how to manage the elements.
    How? How did they learn how to "manage" the elements when thats not what a Shaman does at all.

    a Shaman acts as a mediator between the physical world and the elements and spirits. They ASK for the Elements aid. They beseech them. They don't control the elements, they trust the elements to aid them.

    You can't just walk into the wild and suddenly pop out a shaman. It took Nobundo years to gain contact with the Wind Elements, and he was a very spiritual Draenei who was very much in need.

    Night elves are not like the other shamanistic races, they don't have ancestor spirits they need to contact, they have wisps. They don't medicate the elements, because they see some elements as wholly destructive.

    How would you explain a Night Elf Shaman using fire elemental abilties?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-cleave View Post
    Not only that, but the elementals (Neptulon, Ragnaros, etc) are different from the Elements themselves.
    not wholly different.

  16. #236
    Warchief
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Behind you
    Posts
    2,089
    If they do make night elf shamans then I want panda dks and undead paladins. Else I'd be so fucking mad.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    How? How did they learn how to "manage" the elements when thats not what a Shaman does at all.

    a Shaman acts as a mediator between the physical world and the elements and spirits. They ASK for the Elements aid. They beseech them. They don't control the elements, they trust the elements to aid them.
    If you look at the American defenition of shamanism, shamanism there is about contacting the spirits, but i Asia in some tribes a shaman is just a healer, a curandeer. There are diferent types of shamanism, and we can see it in-game with Blizzard presenting diferent tipes of Paladins for example. In the case of Paladins, thecnacly a Draenei Paladin isn't even a Paladin. I think it was you that typed the example of goblin shamanism... At the eyes of Farseer Nobundo, that way they deal with the elements would look like sacrilege, still, we have several types of shamanism in wow.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    You can't just walk into the wild and suddenly pop out a shaman. It took Nobundo years to gain contact with the Wind Elements, and he was a very spiritual Draenei who was very much in need.
    The Nelfs we play are suposed to be 5000 years or older... Time is a thing that in Nelf had no importance, untill the tree was destroyed.

    A nelf shaman would be someone that wasn't educated by druids or priests, someone that lived in some type of small comunity, obviously an uneducated civilian.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Night elves are not like the other shamanistic races, they don't have ancestor spirits they need to contact, they have wisps. They don't medicate the elements, because they see some elements as wholly destructive.
    Nelf shamanism would not be about spirits, just about the elements.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    How would you explain a Night Elf Shaman using fire elemental abilties?
    Druid of the flame?? Almost all druids in Firelands are nelf, and they seem not having trouble with fire at all... Its even more comic when we notice that those powers were granted by a elemental creature, Ragnaros.

  18. #238
    Over 9000! Snowraven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    European Union
    Posts
    9,091
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Incorrect, there were no female Druids, it was an entirely male sect.


    Too bad he's wrong on many accounts. The Night elf Army WAS the Sentinels, the Watchers were never part of it at all.

    The Watchers were a military group designed to watch over the barrow dens, they didn't answer to the priesthood of Elune OR the sentinels. And none of the female members of this organisation were druids.
    I can't find the little book that came with Warcraft 3 to see if you're right about the druid part. That said, when WoW came that was changed.
    http://wowpedia.org/Elerethe_Renferal
    She was there at the first Cenarion Circle summit and in one of the books (think it was the Shattering) it is stated that she was one of the few female druids that existed before the gender gap was made obsolete.

    And the Watchers were part of the night elf army. They were the guardians of prisoners. Just like the prison guards in your country are actually part of the law enforcements even if they're not on the streets arresting people. And they had druids in their ranks, if we do ignore everything in WoW (where the title of warden is awarded to some druids too), you could remember that in the mission where Tyrande goes to save Illidan... there's a keeper of the groove there and treants. Since the gates had been closed before Tyrande busted in, it can be easily assumed he had been there, with the Watchers, as a watcher, for 10k years.


    In fact, before WoW the night elven army had 4 branches. 2 of them worked together permanently, the Sisterhood of Elune and the Sentinels, and 2 of them were there, one watching over prisoners, the Watchers, and one learning new things in the way of druidism to battle the Legion, the druids. But all 4 branches were commanded by Elune, through her voice, the Priestess of Elune Tyrande Whisperwind who was the commander of all of them.
    This was later changed somewhat in WoW when Malfurion was made to be "on equal footing" with Tyrande in ruling and him having supreme power over the druids, but this was not the case in Warcraft 3.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuor View Post
    I said that in my post, even it was in a very polished way.

    No, it only depends on your defenition of nature, you see nature as the flora and fauna of the world, someothers see the natural world as a whole, storms, lightnings etc.

    To me, nature isn't just the plants and animals but aswell the elements that created those plants and animals, because everithing in the world can be traced to those elements, they are the source of nature.

    I will post it again, the way i see Nelf shaman's, is someone that went to the wild stayed there for thousands of years, and learned how to manage the elements.


    This was one of the best descriptions of shamanism i've ever seen.
    I see, didn't get that from your post, the part about druids, sorry about that.

    You're right in a way at second part.

    As for night elf shamans, even if we exclude them learning from furbolgs in the 10k years they stood together, they did sit in Silithus for at least 1000 years (probably more as Southwind Village existed when the silithid bursted out) keeping watch over the silithid. So they had time to sit in a desert with hostile elementals and ponder of the meaning of life.

  19. #239
    The Insane
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Where Thrall and the Horde needs me to be
    Posts
    16,149
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowraven View Post
    I can't find the little book that came with Warcraft 3 to see if you're right about the druid part. That said, when WoW came that was changed.
    http://wowpedia.org/Elerethe_Renferal
    She was there at the first Cenarion Circle summit and in one of the books (think it was the Shattering) it is stated that she was one of the few female druids that existed before the gender gap was made obsolete.

    And the Watchers were part of the night elf army. They were the guardians of prisoners. Just like the prison guards in your country are actually part of the law enforcements even if they're not on the streets arresting people. And they had druids in their ranks, if we do ignore everything in WoW (where the title of warden is awarded to some druids too), you could remember that in the mission where Tyrande goes to save Illidan... there's a keeper of the groove there and treants. Since the gates had been closed before Tyrande busted in, it can be easily assumed he had been there, with the Watchers, as a watcher, for 10k years.


    In fact, before WoW the night elven army had 4 branches. 2 of them worked together permanently, the Sisterhood of Elune and the Sentinels, and 2 of them were there, one watching over prisoners, the Watchers, and one learning new things in the way of druidism to battle the Legion, the druids. But all 4 branches were commanded by Elune, through her voice, the Priestess of Elune Tyrande Whisperwind who was the commander of all of them.
    This was later changed somewhat in WoW when Malfurion was made to be "on equal footing" with Tyrande in ruling and him having supreme power over the druids, but this was not the case in Warcraft 3.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I see, didn't get that from your post, the part about druids, sorry about that.

    You're right in a way at second part.

    As for night elf shamans, even if we exclude them learning from furbolgs in the 10k years they stood together, they did sit in Silithus for at least 1000 years (probably more as Southwind Village existed when the silithid bursted out) keeping watch over the silithid. So they had time to sit in a desert with hostile elementals and ponder of the meaning of life.
    There is a Night Elf archaeology rare item which lammenes the fact that druids were male, and Priests female until the aftermath of Warcraft 3.
    *broken link*
    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  20. #240
    Over 9000! Snowraven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    European Union
    Posts
    9,091
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    How? How did they learn how to "manage" the elements when thats not what a Shaman does at all.

    a Shaman acts as a mediator between the physical world and the elements and spirits. They ASK for the Elements aid. They beseech them. They don't control the elements, they trust the elements to aid them.

    You can't just walk into the wild and suddenly pop out a shaman. It took Nobundo years to gain contact with the Wind Elements, and he was a very spiritual Draenei who was very much in need.

    Night elves are not like the other shamanistic races, they don't have ancestor spirits they need to contact, they have wisps. They don't medicate the elements, because they see some elements as wholly destructive.

    How would you explain a Night Elf Shaman using fire elemental abilties?
    Glad you brought this up. A regular shaman does act as a mediator between the physical world and the elements and asks them for help. A taunka shaman... a naga shaman even (since we have seen naga controlling the water, earth and air, not fire... for obvious reasons) forces the elements to do their bidding. In Northrend it is clearly stated by the taunka that they don't have time to pray to the elements, they force them. Even in Vashj'ir there's a taunka that goes and says this. So being a shaman doesn't necessarily mean you ask the elements for aid.

    And about the spirits needing contact... you just stated that the night elves do have spirits they already contact, they're called wisps! And if we take into account the Lunar festival, they also go and contact other ancient spirits too!

    As for the night elf fire shaman... well, I do think that night elves will learn something after having dealt with... fire druids? And considering they now have a permanent outpost in Firelands, the land of fire, I don't see it quite as weird of them to learn fire abilities.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    There is a Night Elf archaeology rare item which states the fact that the druids were male, and Priests female until the aftermath of Warcraft 3.
    So they returned too all males are druids then? Then how does Renferal fit into all this? Maybe that's why they killed her... I haven't seen said item (had really bad luck with night elven archeology, think I got the hairpin like 93575 times. I could start acupuncture with ancient night elven hairpins.) but if it's there then I admit that I'm wrong and all druids were male.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •