State of demo locks in PVP - Suggestion/hotfixes to Demonology warlocks in 5.4.2

[Deleted]

It seems like we demonology warlocks are getting ignored, and just getting nerfed each patch(PVE reasons obviously). We're the least represented class in Arena, even below tank specs.. it's a joke. I've played Demonology to 2.1-2.3k in the 3s bracket from each season in MoP and there's a lot to be fixed for Demonology, but nothing has been done yet.

There's so much that could be done with minor buffs

Suggestion/Hotfixes:

Demonic Circle disappears after you've put it down in Metamorphosis(FIX IT ASAP, IT'S ANNOYING).

Metamorphosis no longer has a cooldown.

Demon leap now removes Slow effects.

Carrion swarm now locks players out for 3seconds when interrupted.

Doom now deals 10% more damage. Doom now gives you X demonic fury for each hit. When doom is dispelled it gives you X amount of demonic fury.

When hand of gul'dan/chaos wave is applied on a target, your pet does 15% more damage. hand of gul'dan/chaos wave also reduces your cast time of shadow bolt by 30%.

Glyph of Felguard/wrathguard: legion strike/mortal strike and felstorm/wrathstorm now does 10% more damage.

Enslave demon, probably the least used spell of warlocks in PvP. (Demonology) now when demon is enslaved from the players demon by Demonology warlock, the demon hits their master for 15seconds, Deminishing return needed for this.(Probably would be "op", but just a suggestion)

Corruption now deals 15% more damage.


Those are my ideas that could be done to demonology warlocks, not all of them would i wish to be implemented, just some of them to make them viable as destruction and affliction, but i'm pretty sure this is gonna be ignored anyways since blizzard prioritise PvE before PvP.


Thxbyecya Sosseri out.

[Jessicka]

Why would you use Doom in PvP? If there's a decurser in the opposition it'll be gone well before it ticks, and if there isn't, putting it on someone will mean you can't do anything to effectively CC them for over a minute, which is really annoying. :s

[Rucati]

Why... Why does this need to happen? You have two other completely viable specs in arenas. Rogues have 1 viable spec, Mages have 1 viable spec, Hunters have 1 viable spec. So of the 4 pure classes that can only DPS, Warlocks are the only class that has two viable specs.

So, now, doesn't it make more sense to fix the other classes first? You don't need 3 strong PvP specs, no class in the game currently has 3 strong PvP specs with the exception of Shamans... Well sort of... not too sure why you can't just play one of your two other strong specs, since most classes don't even have that luxury.

[Gohzerlock]

They should revert imps nerf and buff pet hp, they could do something like if doom ticks it does some kinda stun (instead of damage via glyph) and has dispel penalty but we all know these things won't happen.

[Jessicka]

Why... Why does this need to happen? You have two other completely viable specs in arenas. Rogues have 1 viable spec, Mages have 1 viable spec, Hunters have 1 viable spec. So of the 4 pure classes that can only DPS, Warlocks are the only class that has two viable specs.

So, now, doesn't it make more sense to fix the other classes first? You don't need 3 strong PvP specs, no class in the game currently has 3 strong PvP specs with the exception of Shamans... Well sort of... not too sure why you can't just play one of your two other strong specs, since most classes don't even have that luxury.

Because most players aren't actually so dispassionate and objective (really not sure why it's "cool" amongst the gaming community portray oneself as such). Other specs having issues isn't a reason to not discuss what could be done to make others better, regardless of who they belong to.

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They should revert imps nerf and buff pet hp, they could do something like if doom ticks it does some kinda stun (instead of damage via glyph) and has dispel penalty but we all know these things won't happen.

Revert Imp nerf and Imp Swarm nerf, give a Glyph for Soul Link to revert that to the earlier expansion model. That would make my PvE day :3

[Deleted]

Why... Why does this need to happen? You have two other completely viable specs in arenas. Rogues have 1 viable spec, Mages have 1 viable spec, Hunters have 1 viable spec. So of the 4 pure classes that can only DPS, Warlocks are the only class that has two viable specs.


So, now, doesn't it make more sense to fix the other classes first? You don't need 3 strong PvP specs, no class in the game currently has 3 strong PvP specs with the exception of Shamans... Well sort of... not too sure why you can't just play one of your two other strong specs, since most classes don't even have that luxury.

shamans and druids kinda feral and boomy "works" with warriors. But yeah i know, blizzard stated that they wanted atleast 1 viable spec for each class in PvP

But why not make every dps class viable in arena? Ins't it fun with more variaties?

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Why would you use Doom in PvP? If there's a decurser in the opposition it'll be gone well before it ticks, and if there isn't, putting it on someone will mean you can't do anything to effectively CC them for over a minute, which is really annoying. :s

Don't think u got it, that's what i exactly wrote why we need a Doom protection, doom is horrible, it actually offers nothing just a waste of demonic fury, doom is iconic for demonology. It was so useful in 5.0-5.2 that it did the sustain damage. And for the others that can't dispell doom, well they have to deal with it as some other classes have to against others. Doom needs a trade off if it gets dispelled, giving fury back if dispelled is a great suggestion IMO. it takes 15seconds before it even hits anyone so why would it be overpowered or annoying, tbh no flame or anything but if you haven't experienced higher arena rating than 2.2k+ as demo, it's gonna be hard for you to not understand how demo works.

[Phoenexis]

Why... Why does this need to happen? You have two other completely viable specs in arenas. Rogues have 1 viable spec, Mages have 1 viable spec, Hunters have 1 viable spec. So of the 4 pure classes that can only DPS, Warlocks are the only class that has two viable specs.

So, now, doesn't it make more sense to fix the other classes first? You don't need 3 strong PvP specs, no class in the game currently has 3 strong PvP specs with the exception of Shamans... Well sort of... not too sure why you can't just play one of your two other strong specs, since most classes don't even have that luxury.

Because one of the key points for which we were given the mainstreamed and homogenized bullshit that are the new talent system and warlock revamp was for there to be easier balance and equality between specs. Why did they make so many repulsive similarities between them if they couldn't manage to even things out?

I think everyone has the right to QQ when they share more than half of their offensive and defensive abilities with other specs, not to mention classes, yet they don't get to perform as well as others; especially when it comes to Demonology, which was revamped in a way for it to be actually viable and working in MoP. They could make the spec work with so many easy changes that actually wouldn't force people to relearn their damn class, but instead they leave it rusting in the dust. I get that they completely gutted some playstyles from Cata to implement their new clunky PvP designs (Destruction), but if one spec actually had the potential to benefit from all these changes, it was Demonology. It was given access to core talents of other specs and a redesign of its main abilities that made it shit in PvP so that it could properly perform.

Why would you use Doom in PvP? If there's a decurser in the opposition it'll be gone well before it ticks, and if there isn't, putting it on someone will mean you can't do anything to effectively CC them for over a minute, which is really annoying. :s

Because usually you're not going to be using DoT dispelling or damage susceptible CC on the main target which you want to nuke, and if Doom were to have dispel protection then the spike damage which it provides with Dark Soul would be amazing?

Haven't posted in a long while, I miss this forum and its users' posts

[Deleted]

Why... Why does this need to happen? You have two other completely viable specs in arenas. Rogues have 1 viable spec, Mages have 1 viable spec, Hunters have 1 viable spec. So of the 4 pure classes that can only DPS, Warlocks are the only class that has two viable specs.

So, now, doesn't it make more sense to fix the other classes first? You don't need 3 strong PvP specs, no class in the game currently has 3 strong PvP specs with the exception of Shamans... Well sort of... not too sure why you can't just play one of your two other strong specs, since most classes don't even have that luxury.

Yes, we know it's not fine for us to play a spec that has been fine for the entirety of the expansion until some dev at blizzard decides that they had to nerf us for most of our damage.
Even then i wonder why you bring up the "my pure class only has 1 viable spec" argument.
Mages i agree they might want to get fire back in pvp, even though it's still viable.
While i'm not sure about hunters, i'm pretty sure Survival and Marks are perfectly fine.
Rogues, true that.

[Werst]

Though blizz even admits demo isn't quite on par with aff/destro in pve its still not bad and plenty strong in the right hands/ilvl. Thus I think any changes that have a chance need to consider the pve implications extremely heavily since (right or wrong) that seems to be the main driver of blizz decisions. Macro level game changes such as baseline resil, battle fatigue, converting life:mana via lifetap, fel flame mana cost (again pve based), imp nerfs, etc have all come together to screw up the spec significantly. Since we have another season coming and they are presently adjusting specs/classes (eg hybrid armor changes) now is a good time to look at this. My punchlist is as follows:

1. Fel flame refunds 80% of its mana cost when striking a player target. This solves the pve vs pvp use dilemma and its simply impractical to use shadowbolt or even soulfires in pvp these days especially since casting time vs damage is perhaps the lowest in the game.

2. Chaoswave always crits and scales with crit. This normalizes the 0 crits vs double crit variance so you can balance how hard it hits in pvp. Since a standard M > C > H setup gives you a sub 2% chance to double crit its still too much of a swing to let chaoswave hit "hard" but most of the time it just sucks.

3. Let the FG/WG pursuit be a pet only freedom. So many slows these days and lock pet uptime compared to say hunter pet uptime is quite low. This wouldn't change anything in pve but would vastly help in pvp. This way you don't have to change damage coming from pets you just give them more consistent uptime. Since even a wrathguard isn't scary (like a BM pet is scary) its hardly game breaking, just ensures the pet "dot" is consistent and the DF generation similarly so.

4. Doom really does suck in pvp BUT to make it useful I'd say something like "when dispelled it refunds the DF cost and spawns 1-2 imps". This makes it a choice and I'd rather see demo's pressure come from imps than dots honestly since that feels more affliction style. Again 0 pve impact just fixes doom being expensive and able to be dispelled nearly 2x before it even ticks once.

5. Perhaps a glyph similar to the mana tea one for soulfire....ie you can have it instant BUT it consumes 2x charges per use. This might be too much for pve balance but it would really only impact execute range and really screw demo the rest of the time so by my mental math its likely a loss....thus safe for implementation.

6. I'd make imp swarm glyph a baseline ability, fixed 2 minute cooldown, and no longer a) scale with haste or b) impact the nuke based imp generation. Similarly I'd half the imp generation cooldown when used against a player target. Again, no pve impact but would help pvp where demo is both pressure style damage starved and DF starved most of the time. The spell ID or whatnot for imp swarm glyph would become the soulfire/MC charge glyph.

[Deleted]

Why... Why does this need to happen? You have two other completely viable specs in arenas. Rogues have 1 viable spec, Mages have 1 viable spec, Hunters have 1 viable spec. So of the 4 pure classes that can only DPS, Warlocks are the only class that has two viable specs.

If we only talk about dps specs: Rogues have 2 specs (Assasination is great), Hunter all 3, Shaman 2, Druid 2, Mage 1 or 2, Dk not sure about 1 or 2, Warrior 1, Paladin non dps spec right now, Priest neither: SP is on the bottom, Monk 1, Warlock 2 ...
I mean this argument that one spec is more then enough for each class is just a lazy design. So in that logic, if Blizzard "coinsidentally" make all 3 speccs viable, at least one should be nerfed to the ground. Great logic:P Now we just have to wait until they nerf either destro or affliction. One spec is enough, right? Why should any one nerf something that works fine?

We don't pay Blizzard to support their laziness ... They want at least one viable spec for PvP, I want them at least 2.

[TiagoRamos]

Why? Why cant I play the spec I had always love? retarded blizz... ruining demo cause of pve... i dont like afflic or destro why am i forced to play these specs?

[Werst]

The logic of "don't fix X when Y and Z are good" is extremely flawed. Then again in pvp aff and destro aren't exactly flourishing so in that light Y and Z kinda suck so its about time we buff X since its even worse in that arena (no pun intended). If you altered demo along the lines of what I pointed out there would be negligible pve impact and locks could have a go to pvp spec vs melee. Can't fix aff in pvp due to dot snapshotting/legendary gem/etc. Destro nobody likes being hit by the giant green dildo of doom no matter how long it takes to cast or how much harder a shatter combo hits (not to mention how much easier it is to execute) but I digress.

They could also just let you go from DA to meta form with no DF penalty but that doesn't fix the mechanics really....just makes the lock a bad target to sit on lol. Technically it would be pve safe...you'd do squat damage and absurd threat so nobody would use it outside of pvp (and leveling lol). Fixes the DF generation issue which helps the other issues quite a lot.

There are some other things I hope they look at for the next season regardless. Even if they "fix" them by just ratcheting up how much pvp power offsets the battle fatigue for warlocks. For instance...has anyone actually used breath of guldan intentionally? Harvest life needs to be mobile and uninterruptable if its going to compete with our other options. Maybe I'm delusional thinking that a new season with 6-9 months more MoP/SoO is reason enough to polish/evolve the product/class?

[Kildragon]

Honestly demo doesn't need mechanics changes. Just buff soulfire and ToC by 20% each and watch the magic happen. I feel like people often think specs need all this work to be pvp viable when it simply comes down to a few # tweaks. If we can actually kill something by getting a few soulfires in and then chasing with toc we'd suddenly be viable. The one suggestion that I really like in terms of actual mechanics is to have fel flame refund mana since casting shadow bolt is nearly impossible.

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On second thought I also like doom refunding df when it gets dispelled. I'm not even sure why corruption is a spell for demo. Even in pve it ticks for like 15k and the df we get from it is minimal. 3 per tick? In pvp gear with low haste it would take us a full 5 minutes to get 1000 df from corruption if we have 3 rolling the whole time. It's so minimal it's almost worthless.

[Vreivai]

Make all those changes and Demonology suddenly becomes more OP than Affliction and Destruction are right now.

[Werst]

Aff and destro are not OP by any measure in pvp and demo is well behind them. If you sort by 1800 through 2200 in 2's and 3's locks of all spec are dead last in 2's and bottom 3-4 in 3's on the ladder. Remember...blizzcon is NOT live servers so that card hardly plays. The only situation locks can compete in is where they set up CC for a real dps who can 80-0 or in destro's cast 80%-20% where shadowburn helps with the kill.

First off, how would fel flame refunding 80% of its mana cost be OP in PVP? Shadowbolt is not a viable spell for pvp use. Its cast time to damage is perhaps the lowest in the game and its resource generation is nothing special either. FF has been the filler for demo in pvp all expansion with no problems from it. Problem is pve related cost changes and escalating base resil/battle fatigue means you do more damage to yourself spending mana on it than you do to your target. That is NOT okay. Can't change things for pve so having it refund mana when striking player targets solves the pvp problem and leaves pve untouched. I'd seriously love to hear why or how this would make demo OP....

Second, doom refunding DF and/or spawning an imp is still less punishing than UA and doom is already pathetic in pvp. Not only can every healer remove it penalty free almost twice before it even ticks once but anyone else (class or spec) who can decurse can remove it as well. Refunding DF (which is hard to come by in pvp) is bare minimum and spawning an imp puts at least some consequence on it but its one that is spread out over the imp's total casts instead of UA's kaboom+silence. Again I'd love to hear how that would catapult demo to OP status...../bueler?

Third, chaoswave always critting/scaling with crit is the kind of thing that is necessary to be able to balance the spell in pvp. With a M > C > H setup you are talking sub 2% chance to double crit but that is still a quadruple swing in damage from 0 crits to a double crit. If the spell it hard enough to be dangerous it would be too much on the rare double crit. Normalization lets the spell get tuned up/down as needed to be a legit tool without ever becoming OP. The problem before was it striking a large group due to mannoroth which simply isn't possible anymore. Anything you could "cleave" with it could be cleaved by a dozen other abilities in game that don't even make the radar (and you'd have to be standing on top of your team thus kind of deserving it) Again, lets hear how this (at a normalized level) would break anything to the OP side? Its not going to budge pve since its still a massive loss to not use HoG (and weave it properly). So lets hear it....

Fourth, a mana tea style glyph for soulfire would be a loser in pve. 2x charges of MC for a single (but instant) soulfire is a loss even in execute range. However it enables the spell to be used in pvp. Soulfire doesn't hit particularly hard but does generate quite a bit of DF. If used in meta form it also sucks up quite a bit of DF. So its a non pve issue with a way to make a spell that is not useable in pvp become useable...sounds like exactly what demo needs. Again how does this make it OP...this isn't soulfire with darksoul+10x black blood+2pcT16 etc....no insane proc stacking in pvp.

Fifth, giving the WG/FG pursuit a freedom is still inferior to any hunter's pet blinkstrike. Not to mention their master's call. Since DF generation is so gimped in pvp having a pet have a higher uptime is a very pve safe way to help the spec. Nobody is afraid of a wrathguard...its no threat to kill any spec of any class. Not like a BM hunter pet or a UH DK "timmy". More consistent uptime on the pet "dot" helps smooth out DF generation and single target dot style damage. Pets are already very fragile so its not like suddenly they become a killing machine. Even fully implemented its not on par with baseline hunters so please...lets hear how this makes demo OP.

Sixth, changing the imp swarm glyph back to 5x imps at 2x minutes (maybe 3x mins) BUT with a fixed cooldown and no longer interacting with our nuke based imp generation. This does slightly buff pve where even the devs admit demo is slightly lacking. Its not a major bump and it finally eliminates the temp haste buff cheesing of the ability but gives demo a "DF on demand" with a small bit of damage attached. In pvp after the UVLS related imp nerfs imps are not any kind of major pressure (like a stampede) just more of a resource generation button. Don't believe me look at the simC profile damage contribution from imps. So after hopefully reading the math lets hear how this breaks demo into OP territory....really, I'm curious.

Seventh, the dreaded DA to meta thing. Its been around a long time and there was a time it may have been too strong but certainly not anymore. It could also probably solve most of the problems on its own so if blizz is looking for a lazy/efficient solution this is something to consider. Probably too strong if combined with all the other changes but in no way out of line if done next Tuesday on its own. You do pathetic damage in DA form, pay the full FC tank penalty, and its super easy to tell when you are no threat to anyone. The mitigation itself isn't even that strong when you consider how much the class loses to baseline resil/battle fatigue (as a class that relies on HP:mana:damage conversion cycle) and what other classes have. All it would do is make the lock a less favorable target to park melee on vs being a "okay train the purple bar into the dirt no matter what" as a successful strat. If melee need toolkits to chase frostmages then at least one spec of lock needs a toolkit to deal with melee being up their butt 24/7 since we clearly can't run.

What about those changes is so out of line? I'd really like to hear it. (discussed logically of course) When you compare what the other successful/normal classes and specs are doing its clear demo locks need an improved toolkit to keep up. The meta/macro level game has changed considerably in ways that have gimped demo. Its time those wrinkles were smoothed out so locks have an enjoyable spec to pvp in for the next season.