1. #1

    Would having 180-200 ms remove any DPS advantage combat has over mutilate?

    There's a slight delay between instant attacks with this much latency(though for some reason I can pw:s blanket the raid with almost no delay) which is noticeable during lust/adrenaline.

    Would the DPS loss make assassination better? as assassination I could probably play with 1000ms and not even notice anything outside redirects/openers/vanishmut.

  2. #2
    Combat with high latency is pretty rough. You can alleviate it a little bit by going with agi > haste gems, which will drop a few haste % for minimal theoretical DPS loss (plus it works for Subt too). The ability queuing system starts to shit itself with a <1s GCD and 100ms+ latency, which is why instants work just fine for most other classes at that latency but not us.

    As far as if latency will make Assassination better: it depends on gear. The more gear you have, the farther Mut falls behind. I did some fights as Mut a few weeks ago just to play it again and it's a good 10-20% behind for me. If you're in the 560 ilvl or less range where Mut is competitive, I would check it out for yourself. If you're 570+, Combat is probably still better despite the latency DPS loss.

    I'd recommend also checking out Subt. Its damage is the same or better than Combat without cleave, it's not super spammy so latency doesn't hurt it, and I think it's far more fun to play.

  3. #3
    Stood in the Fire DrArtorius's Avatar
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    I play Combat as my main spec when doing serious raiding. Regardless of it (combat) being actually better... I personally like to have a Sub off spec to entertain myself trying to put out some high numbers with it during farm bosses or flex for example. As Squirl have said, it's super fun to play =)

  4. #4
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    I play at 190 usually (australia ftw) and i've had much higher dps as combat than mut just because of the nature of SoO's fights (cleave etc)

    Honestly it's not as big of an issue as most people say it is, in shadowcraft you can put in your latency and while it's just an estimation and it doesn't account for your reaction times etc, it can tell you roughly how much you'll lose.

    I second Squirl's comments on sub, It's insanely good and I still do crazy single target as sub with combat gems.

  5. #5
    It's so depressing to read Americans/Europeans talking about 200ms being high latency.

    Here in Australia 200ms is about the best you'll ever get
    Last edited by Mormolyce; 2014-01-17 at 02:23 AM.
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  6. #6
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspectsftw View Post
    I play at 190 usually (australia ftw) and i've had much higher dps as combat than mut just because of the nature of SoO's fights (cleave etc)

    Honestly it's not as big of an issue as most people say it is, in shadowcraft you can put in your latency and while it's just an estimation and it doesn't account for your reaction times etc, it can tell you roughly how much you'll lose.

    I second Squirl's comments on sub, It's insanely good and I still do crazy single target as sub with combat gems.
    I agree with this, also just mash the fuck out of your buttons during AR and you shouldn't cap outside of lust.

    I do however think combat is a lot less niche than sub and puts out the same numbers on single target fights.

  7. #7
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    In my minimal exploration of this, I found that an ms of 200 relates to ~ 8-10% drop in dps vs 30ms - this brings the advantage of combat down quite significantly, but still leaves it slightly ahead.
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  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire DrArtorius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    In my minimal exploration of this, I found that an ms of 200 relates to ~ 8-10% drop in dps vs 30ms - this brings the advantage of combat down quite significantly, but still leaves it slightly ahead.
    I'd fall in love with you if you could do something similar comparing combat and subtlety with different latencies.

  9. #9
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrArtorius View Post
    I'd fall in love with you if you could do something similar comparing combat and subtlety with different latencies.
    Well I am a sucker for forum love - In my little notepad of scratches I make at work when there's nothing left to code, I have the following jotted down -

    "BiS Combat

    30ms - 409k
    50ms - 406k
    75ms - 402k
    100ms - 398k
    150ms - 390k
    200ms - 384k
    500ms - 367k
    1000ms - change service provider"

    I can certainly have a look at the effects on subtelty, but it's not hard to do yourself - the tools for this already exist in simulationcraft and shadowcraft - this is all a superficial exploration, I didn't explore how these tools model latency at all so the results could be completely arbitrary, but they seem to make sense.

    EDIT: On reflection of this data, I realise I still suck at calculating basic percentages... Seems to be about a 6% drop for 200ms.
    Last edited by Ryme; 2014-01-24 at 04:48 PM.
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  10. #10
    What would be the numbers for assassination? I main a healer so I don't really know where you guys check those stuff.

  11. #11
    Stood in the Fire DrArtorius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    What would be the numbers for assassination? I main a healer so I don't really know where you guys check those stuff.
    I think you can change latency in both Simcraft and Shadowcraft.

  12. #12
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Just as an update to this. I recently moved to an area that places my connection to WoW under a near constant 250-300ms and so I've been running simulations for my character* to find if it's actually better to not play combat (the frustrations during AR were getting unbearable

    This is probably also of note to our Oceanic friends who often claim that +200ms is often the norm for them. Sims ran at elite and good level (more of note as mistakes in rotation are far more common with more latency) with a standard deviation in the latency of 25ms (perhaps a little chaotic).

    200ms - Elite 200ms - Good
    Combat 351421 Combat 345607
    Assassination 349343 Assassination 347419
    % Diff 0.59% % Diff -0.52%

    -------

    100ms - Elite 100ms - Good
    Combat 363175 Combat 356292
    Assassination 354098 Assassination 352338
    % Diff 2.56% % Diff 1.12%

    ---------------

    250ms - Elite 250ms - Good
    Combat 346524 Combat 340565
    Assassination 347172 Assassination 345098
    % Diff -0.19% % Diff -1.31%

    *I am currently running these again at BiS values for comparison, but thought I'd share what I found so far.
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  13. #13
    why does ass suffer so much going 100-200ms? you aren't gcd capped or anything.

  14. #14
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    BiS:


    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    why does ass suffer so much going 100-200ms? you aren't gcd capped or anything.
    Unsure, still looking into it. Evenom uptime is lower, but only by around 1% - at first guess, I'd say it's a cumulative effect of many factors. Also, note again it's for my character - gear not optimised for both specs.
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  15. #15
    Out of curiosity, how is this being modeled?

    The latency tolerance setting allows you to use an ability at exactly the GDC assuming your latency is less than the GCD, so the only real difference should be reactions to procs/parries/etc.

  16. #16
    Lag tolerance in game does not work properly if you have adrenaline rush up, it's great for casted spells but not that great for instants.

  17. #17
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    https://code.google.com/p/simulation...ptions#Latency

    Setting world_lag to varying lengths and adding gcd_lag to "model" the jumps in latency effecting gameplay and reaction times. It's very possible that was overdone in the above tests, but it's really quite hard to model a laggy environment in simulationcraft. The results are pretty conclusive anyway, combat exceeds assassination unless your connection is quite unstable (the gcd lag was set at increasingly higher values as world lag increased), and even then, assassination only marginally beats it.
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