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  1. #1

    help a guardian raid tank out

    Our guardian druid is survivable and all, but he feels out shined by the paladin tank in the party, especially when it comes to DPS/threat. We raid 10 man so tank DPS is a component of things, but I am wondering if you guys can look at his armory/logs and see if he's missing anything he could be doing better:

    Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...erhagen/simple
    WOL: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/2...9gy/details/1/

    We took a long break over the holidays so we're missing more recent logs. Thanks!

    EDIT: He's logging in and swapping to bear spec/gear

  2. #2
    I only have time for a quick view of what you've provided, and I'm sure others will come along to tear it apart. Without getting too specific:

    - Your bear tank isn't using cooldowns/abilities as frequently as he/she could. For example, using Nature's Vigil twice in a 9min fight leaves something to be desired, however there are other offensive/defensive examples of poor usage (Berserk, SD, T&C usage, etc).

    -The variance between the tanking time and damage taken of you Guardian indicates that the paladin tank will have much higher Vengeance at longer intervals than your Guardian. That innately will lead to your paladin tank having more damage/threat, but my previous point of poor use of cooldowns throughout a fight will make that gap much bigger.

    Time to play with my kid, I'm sure you'll get more specific details shortly in this forum.

    *edit* - Forgot to mention, your Guardian's gear isn't the problem!
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  3. #3
    No, we're all doing well in the gear department. He's considering swapping back to his DK and I feel the community here might save a bear, and to be frank we're moving into heroics so I'd rather not take a step back and gear his DK if his bear can produce what he's looking for. Anything you guys advise him on will be taken on for action.

    Edit: Only you can prevent death knight tanking.

  4. #4
    Dreadlord Khatix's Avatar
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    His Lacerate and Thrash Up-time are very BAD. Should keep up a 3 stack of lacerate up at all times.

    Logs also not the greatest hes only there as tank for 2 fights.
    Last edited by Khatix; 2014-01-16 at 11:45 PM.

  5. #5
    Right you are, here's the previous logs from prior to the break:

    1: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/w...ajt/details/1/
    2: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1...fp/details/14/

    He's only missing the first two bosses from that week.

    Bonus Garrosh kill from the week prior:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/a...?s=8492&e=9119
    Last edited by hatchetman240; 2014-01-17 at 12:24 AM.

  6. #6
    Like Bloodrayne of Lothar said, Lacerate uptime is bad - 68.8% on Malkorok - a single target fight, there is no need to let fall off the stacks once you start the fight.
    Also does he really need to swipe on that fight? Better throw in some FFF or Maul when Mangle is on CD and he got enough rage.

    I think he must get used to the proper rotation, i'll copy it from Arielle's site :X

    - Use Mangle on cooldown.
    - Keep Thrash as close to 100% uptime as possible without clipping it.
    - Keep Lacerate on cooldown.
    - FFF
    - Use Maul when you have extra Rage (note: i use this as a ragedump when i'm not tanking after a swap, pref. with proc)

    But note that i'm just tanking on my alt, so anyone correct me if i'm wrong on this.
    Last edited by Minax; 2014-01-17 at 07:58 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Minax View Post
    Malkorok - a single target fight, ... Also does he really need to swipe on that fight?
    I use Swipe on that fight when there are adds to kill. EDIT: wait, OP is talking about normal modes, whoops. No, there's no need to use Swipe on normal mode.
    Blencathra <Hexx> - Guardian Druid - Chamber of Aspects

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Blencathra View Post
    I use Swipe on that fight when there are adds to kill. EDIT: wait, OP is talking about normal modes, whoops. No, there's no need to use Swipe on normal mode.
    Bears take less damage so they will inherently do less damage. The easiest way to do more damage is to take more damage.

    Looking at the Garrosh log he took 30% less damage and did 20% less damage. Pretty good trade in my book. An example of one trick he could use, on Garrosh in the Twilight realm stand in the purple and use cooldowns to crank your vengeance up. That's a good fight to take dispersion for Symbiosis.

  9. #9
    @OP - Keep in mind your raid strats also greatly affect the output of your tanks. I think it was mentioned earlier that if your pally has more uptime on the boss, especially at start, then they will likely out perform their co-tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    Bears take less damage so they will inherently do less damage. The easiest way to do more damage is to take more damage.
    Proper CD usage, keeping dots up, and correct priority rotation should be his focus before you encourage him to stand in bad. There is a difference between appropriate DPS and cheesing DPS. The first is what he ought to be doing as a tank while avoiding any unnecessary dmg, the latter is for those using calculated risks to try and rank.

    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    That's a good fight to take dispersion for Symbiosis.
    Last I heard Dispersion is a Feral Sym talent, Guardians get Fear Ward.
    Last edited by Kioga; 2014-01-17 at 08:46 PM.

  10. #10
    I use Swipe on that fight when there are adds to kill.
    Swipe is less DPS than simply using a single target ability (other than FFF) unless there are at least 3 targets.

    Bears take less damage so they will inherently do less damage.
    I think you're referring to how stacking damage taken debuffs aren't calculated if you dodge an attack. In any case, this statement isn't accurate as written and will probably cause confusion. However your second paragraph seems to infer that the amount of time you actually spend tanking the boss is what influences your DPS the most - which is true.

  11. #11
    So he stopped by on Malkorok (flex) last night and took some new weak auras for a test spin to correct certain issues. Lacerate time came up to where it should be: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/7...?s=3773&e=3961

    Anything else you guys are noticing?

  12. #12
    Don't just maintain lacerate at the expense of Thrash. Both should have been at least 90%+ on a single target fight like Mal.

    I only see 1 use of Nature's Vigil which has a 90sec CD so he should have at least had 2 uses and it also doesn't appear that he popped berserk at any point.

    He might also look into using DPS trinks. Juggernauts is pretty useless unless u just don't have any other options. TED is meh IMO. I would look for Haromm's, Sigil of Rampage, or Thok's if DPS is a big concern.
    Last edited by Kioga; 2014-01-18 at 03:36 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by hatchetman240 View Post
    So he stopped by on Malkorok (flex) last night and took some new weak auras for a test spin to correct certain issues. Lacerate time came up to where it should be: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/7...?s=3773&e=3961

    Anything else you guys are noticing?
    Granted it's a flex run, but from the defensive side of things there is a systemic problem if your Guardian was just focusing on Lacerate uptime and damage and letting the defensive side get sloppy.

    Savage Defense was used 3 times, while FR was used 22 times. With high enough Vengeance, this technically can work, but considering the help being asked concerning this Guardian, SD usage should be much much higher until a proper defensive baseline is established.

    On a similar note, Tooth and Claw usage was 8 out of 42 procs. No one feasibly expects anyone to use every proc, but there's no reason usage couldn't be higher (especially while not tanking, since it helps co-tanks out). Low usage either means rage is being prioritized elsewhere or Maul is being ignored. If your Guardian was using FR excessively, this could cause rage to not be available for Maul... but considering there were only 11 Mauls used in the fight, I suspect Maul was more than likely ignored. While I'd consider using T&C effectively is a more advanced method of damage reduction for Guardians while actively tanking with SD/FR usage taking priority, there's nothing better to use your rage on while not actively tanking.

    Moving along, we come to Faerie Fire. From a Guardian damage output standpoint FF is a low-priority damage spell, from a raid utility standpoint it's a high-priority spell due to applying the Weakened Armor debuff. While the debuff could technically be applied from other classes in the flex raid with some added difficulty, there's absolutely no reason there can't be almost 100% uptime with a Guardian tank (only two casts by your Guardian resulted in about 30% uptime on a 3min fight). Take into account that using FF as Guardian can proc a free Mangle, it's bad practice not to maintain FF even if another source for the debuff is present.

    From the comments we've seen thus far, the systemic problem may be that your Guardian has issues tracking timers and/or buffs/debuffs/CDs or being able to multitask as a tank. If it's simply an issue of having trouble watching timers in 3-4 different locations, there are methods of solidify timers into one location. Otherwise, I'd suggest if your Guardian is in role where they need to coordinate raid movements or things not directly related to their character, allow this person to focus solely on tanking for a while. Once they can easily maintain the basic ability prioritization (which will automatically have good uptime on Lacerate/Thrash/FF) while having good usage of SD/FR, you can ease them back into doing other tasks.

    *edit* - Since I think many Guardians in here have done this at one point, I'd also recommend your Guardian sit on a target dummy to practice their tanking rotation... which is basically the same as a Guardian DPS rotation with less Maul usage. For simplicity, I'd cut out Maul completely in lieu of maximum Savage Defense usage with rage until maintaining all bleeds/debuffs is pretty much automatic.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2014-01-18 at 07:44 PM.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Kioga View Post

    Last I heard Dispersion is a Feral Sym talent, Guardians get Fear Ward.
    Good call haven't tanked much lately, I usually took Bone Shield. I do think my original point stands though, vengeance and damage taken will have a bigger impact on DPS than lacerate uptime. I also expect your supposition that the other tank is tanking first is correct.

    Savage Defense was used 3 times, while FR was used 22 times. With high enough Vengeance, this technically can work, but considering the help being asked concerning this Guardian, SD usage should be much much higher until a proper defensive baseline is established.
    Imo this is about right if the Bear has enough health, especially if you want to do more damage. Afaik dodge is the only defensive mechanic than doesn't boost vengeance.
    Last edited by teddabear; 2014-01-18 at 09:46 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    Imo this is about right if the Bear has enough health, especially if you want to do more damage. Afaik dodge is the only defensive mechanic than doesn't boost vengeance.
    Depends upon the mechanic in question whether avoiding will "hurt" your damage output or not. Specifically for Malkorok, I never noticed much of a difference from religious use of SD versus cutting it out... although the higher difficulty the encounter, the sooner using SD can actually be a DPS gain with respect to the stack size of the debuff (eventually the melee hits will one-shot the bubble and/or FR spamming won't be able to keep up). Regardless, concerning the rest of the logs we've seen and specifically for the Malkorok log, I don't think the Guardian in question was intentionally cutting out SD but rather failing to use it since the timing is completely random.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  16. #16
    High Overlord Pelf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle
    Swipe is less DPS than simply using a single target ability (other than FFF) unless there are at least 3 targets.
    Luckily, by the time all of the adds are in the middle with the boss, there are 4 targets. Still irrelevant to the OP who is in normal .

    ---------------

    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear
    Bears take less damage so they will inherently do less damage.
    No. From the tooltip for Vengeance:
    Each time you take damage while in Bear Form, you gain 1.5% of the unmitigated damage taken as attack power for 20 sec.
    Combined with this:
    Tanks no longer receive Vengeance from many persistent area damage effects (standing in the fire) or from missed attacks (dodging and parrying an attack will continue to work as it has before).
    So, neither dodging nor our armor advantage puts us at a Vengeance disadvantage.

    ---------------

    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft
    Specifically for Malkorok, I never noticed much of a difference from religious use of SD versus cutting it out...
    In the 25H version of this fight, for me, having SD up effects a noticeable difference in shield stability -- especially as stacks increase.

    ---------------

    I have tended to throw extra rage directly into my shield with FR, but since T&C and FR both use the same formula, I guess an empowered Maul would be sort of equivalent. However, adding absorption to the shield reduces damage from all sources whereas T&C is going to just apply to the next autoattack -- so, not really equivalent.
    Shiboomi of <Riot> on US-Sargeras

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelf View Post

    So, neither dodging nor our armor advantage puts us at a Vengeance disadvantage.
    I'm fairly certain SD puts us at a Vengeance disadvantage.

    SD is better when survivability is an issue, which is fairly rare in SoO. FR is better when you want to do more damage.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelf View Post
    In the 25H version of this fight, for me, having SD up effects a noticeable difference in shield stability -- especially as stacks increase
    We're talking the about the OP's Guardian tanking situation, which isn't 25H. The comment was geared towards damage output and not survivability, but I did mention that SD is going to be needed and desired the harder the content becomes because FR cannot keep up or will not save you after a certain stack size.

    While I don't want to devolve into a whole Vengeance discussion and keep this focused on the OP, but you and teddabear are actually both right. There are attacks where avoidance/mitigation will not really change how much of a Vengeance change results, but there are also attacks and situations where avoidance/mitigation will actually result in lowering Vengeance. Regardless, I believe the OP's Guardian should solidify a proper tanking execution base prior to worrying about Vengeance gimmicks, since execution will likely make the most difference anyways.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  19. #19
    There seems to be a whole lot of misinformation about vengeance floating around.

    Lets take a couple situations from a boss hit. Tank 1 takes full damage, tank 2 dodges the attack, tank 3 takes 50% from using a cooldown. Every tank gets the exact same amount of vengeance, which is calcualted just before the attack would hit you. Therefore bears are not at a vengeance disadvantage, in fact all tanks are equal in that regard. Although some do scale better...

    As both a Bear and Prot pally in my 2 raids I can tell you that I do what feels like twice the damage on my Druid as my pally. Use as addon to track your bleeds and lacerate stacks. Make sure you use a spell every GCD and if you are swapping at the correct points you should be higher than your pally co tank every fight. In fact it would be advisable to have the bear tanking more time if feasible if he can get his damage figured out if your groups DPS is low.

  20. #20
    There are attacks where avoidance/mitigation will not really change how much of a Vengeance change results, but there are also attacks and situations where avoidance/mitigation will actually result in lowering Vengeance.
    There are also situations where avoidance will *increase* the amount of vengeance you get (these related to being at low health and having the "overkill" damage from attacks removed from the calculation). The only possible scenarios on Malkorok are "stay the same" or "increase", because he has no attacks that would make it decrease.

    Either way, I agree with your point. High vengeance can lead to high DPS with bad ability use, but it doesn't mean you couldn't do more. Likewise, you'll do low DPS at low vengeance, but it doesn't excuse doing even less because of poor ability use. All of this vengeance rambling is kind of pointless, I'd advise the OP and OP's bear to just ignore it and read through the helpful advice posts that are already there .

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