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  1. #441
    Is buying gold P2W?

    I mean, technically anyone can accumulate gold easily with grinding.

    Isn't buying gold just "pay to avoid grinding" as well?

  2. #442
    you wont quit

  3. #443
    Warchief Sylreick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizbeth View Post
    Still doesn't explain why players should have to pay for it. If it's needed, it should be free, it doesn't even take extra development time like the cash shop pets and mounts.
    They don't have to pay, that's the whole point. They have the OPTION to pay, if they desire it. It isn't needed, that's why it's considered optional. Optional things aren't meant to be free, because you can get by without it.
    "Believing something is not an accomplishment. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because “strength of belief” is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. Listen to any “die-hard” conservative or liberal talk about their deepest beliefs and you are listening to somebody who will never hear what you say on any matter that matters to them — unless you believe the same. Wherever there is a belief, there is a closed door."

  4. #444
    Look, I get why some of you are defending Blizzard. It's called denial.

    By itself the eventual selling of lvl 90 chars might not seem like a big deal but it's another step closer to pay to win. Heck, remember how Blizzard said the XP potion would only be available in the Asian version of the game? Well surprise! Here's 500 XP potions for the price of 1, instant lvl 90.

    It's started with pets, mounts, then transmog gear, then potions, then lvl 90. So guess what? Unless you're blind on purpose, a rational person can see the way it is going. It's just a matter of time.

    They will slowly keep adding things until it really is pay to win. And the more people who "don't mind" the faster it will arrive.

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    In addition, current players don't particularly wish to level additional characters so when they get bored of the class or two they have maxed they cancel their sub since there's nothing really for them to do that doesn't require a fairly significant time investment in something they don't enjoy.
    So first it is a problem with having too much time on their hands making them bored yet they dont have the time to spend a fraction of their end game time investment to level a character?

    That is the thing I dont get about altohalics. They bitch when there is nothing to do all all their toons because Blizzard reduced the grinds to make the game more casual friendly and then when Blizzard ups the grind again to cater to such nolifers the players bitch about not having enough time to spend on all of their alts like being able to maintain all ones alts is some kind of mandated right.

    The level 90 for the purpose of helping new and returning players catch up to the current expansion rather than get lost in what is now a very broken up jumbled mess of old leveling content is a good cost effective measure compared to the 1-60 revamp which hurt Cata a lot.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2014-01-17 at 07:49 PM.

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Lizbeth View Post
    Yes it does, they have made a lot of bad, unpopular decisions in the past few years and it shows from declining sub numbers. This one is going to be unpopular as well because most players actually don't want to pay.. other than die hard Blizzard fans who play anyway. For most it's going to be "if I already pay my $15 a month, why are they asking for more for this?".. it might not cause every single player to quit but even if they lose 2% to this, 1% to another unpopular change, 5% to that etc. it's going to add up.
    I'm not sure it's possible for you to make any more assumptions based on personal opinion. My goodness.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    And when you see them you'll be all like and we'll be all like and then people on the forums will still be all like(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
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  7. #447
    That's -all-. Pay to win? Pay to start, more like.
    Thats the success of conditioning over time. Years ago, the community would been mad if blizzard had tried to offer a paid maxlevel character service. Today, people can't wait to throw their money to blizzard for every crap that went into the game.

    Blizzard is playing Lemmings and people don't realize it.

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by OUTclassed View Post
    Look, I get why some of you are defending Blizzard. It's called denial.

    By itself the eventual selling of lvl 90 chars might not seem like a big deal but it's another step closer to pay to win. Heck, remember how Blizzard said the XP potion would only be available in the Asian version of the game? Well surprise! Here's 500 XP potions for the price of 1, instant lvl 90.

    It's started with pets, mounts, then transmog gear, then potions, then lvl 90. So guess what? Unless you're blind on purpose, a rational person can see the way it is going. It's just a matter of time.

    They will slowly keep adding things until it really is pay to win. And the more people who "don't mind" the faster it will arrive.
    slippery slope!! slippery slopes everywhere!!!

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Babzu View Post
    Im more of an oldschool RPG fan, wow back in TBC hit my personal favorite balance on the genre. Wow is still a good game to some, but its not the same game. Do I feel its fair? Not really.
    What ever gave you the impression that life was fair or that the world revolved around your preferences? Entertainment companies cater to the 16-25 demographic because it spends the most irresponsibly. By now most of your peers will have moved on past WoW. You can either join them or roll with the changes. Complaining about the ever-evolving state of the entertainment industry is futile. Changes will happen with or without your approval.

    Quote Originally Posted by Babzu View Post
    I wish they would open up oldschool servers to support the fans of wow past. But there are always other ways to do that.
    If Blizzard thought they could turn a profit doing that I'm sure they would. The fact is that the cost-to-benefit ratio of doing this just isn't favorable. You accepted this risk when you chose to play a game that required $15 a month. There are many single player games out there that will always be available to you in their original form no matter how old they are. Of course, the companies that made those games no longer support them, but the fans always find a way to play them again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Babzu View Post
    Blizzard seems under the impression that "less people are playing mmos in general" but I dont think that is a result of the consumer, as much as it is a result of the lack of a true mmo products. (This one could be opinion, but for me this is true, I still love mmos, I just dont know of any REAL mmos these days)
    You could replace every mention of the word "MMO" in that sentence with "New Wave '80s music" and you'd pretty much have my personal outlook on the state of music as well. That doesn't make it valid, though. Tastes change and industries evolve. Other things that make me angry: single player modes in games like Starcraft, Diablo, and SimCity that require an online connection regardless. Do I expect the industry to shift to suit my preferences? I know better than that. Welcome to adulthood.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    So first it is a problem with having too much time on their hands making them bored yet they dont have the time to spend a fraction of their end game time investment to level a character?

    That is the thing I dont get about altohalics. They bitch when there is nothing to do all all their toons because Blizzard reduced the grinds to make the game more casual friendly and then when Blizzard ups the grind again to cater to such nolifers the players bitch about not having enough time to spend on all of their alts like being able to maintain all ones alts is some kind of mandated right.

    The level 90 for the purpose of helping new and returning players catch up to the current expansion rather than get lost in what is now a very broken up jumbled mess of old leveling content is a good cost effective measure compared to the 1-60 revamp which hurt Cata a lot.
    The scenario I was trying to illustrate is someone that is bored of what they currently have leveled but they remember how boring the level grind is and so choose to quit the game because there are better uses for their free time. Had they the option of the level 90 character they may have stayed in the game or they could still value it as not being worth the 10 USD cost and moved elsewhere. Before this option they'd have quit and probably stayed unsubscribed; with this option they might keep their subscription active a little longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    Thats the success of conditioning over time. Years ago, the community would been mad if blizzard had tried to offer a paid maxlevel character service. Today, people can't wait to throw their money to blizzard for every crap that went into the game.

    Blizzard is playing Lemmings and people don't realize it.
    Or Blizzard has noted that ever since Vanilla people have been willing to pay, often at their own risk, 3rd parties to level their characters for them and just want to cut out the middle man and get in on a piece of the action. But hey, if you dislike Blizzard's actions so much vote with your wallet.

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    this is a miltiplayer game, difference i dont mind the one feee 90. being able to get more? no. if someone wants to go the rediculous way more power to them
    Why? 90 is not even max level. You still need to level all 10 levels in the new expansion to start doing anything relevant.

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by OUTclassed View Post
    Look, I get why some of you are defending Blizzard. It's called denial.

    By itself the eventual selling of lvl 90 chars might not seem like a big deal but it's another step closer to pay to win. Heck, remember how Blizzard said the XP potion would only be available in the Asian version of the game? Well surprise! Here's 500 XP potions for the price of 1, instant lvl 90.

    It's started with pets, mounts, then transmog gear, then potions, then lvl 90. So guess what? Unless you're blind on purpose, a rational person can see the way it is going. It's just a matter of time.

    They will slowly keep adding things until it really is pay to win. And the more people who "don't mind" the faster it will arrive.
    I can say with absolute certainty that WoW will one day adopt a different payment model. It might be free to play or freemium or maybe the thing like EVE does and Wildstar is going to do. The end result will most likely be the same though. It's just the way the market is heading. The subscription model is on its way out. WoW and a few others are holding out as long they can, but the market is changing. Eventually the subscription model will die.

    But that doesn't mean the game will become pay to win. For every MMO that went free to play and threw pay to win features out there's plenty more free to play MMOs that never even come close.

    If you think a level 90 character is pay to win then, in all seriousness, you should quit now. You are right in the effect that Blizzard will probably add more items to the shop along these lines.

    I don't see a level 90 character as pay to win. And I don't think Blizzard will ever sell actual gear.

    This is why the slippery slope is a logical fallacy. Just because they sell *stuff* doesn't mean they will sell *everything*. There's plenty of MMOs out there that don't.
    I mourn the loss of a man of true vision and talent. You were my idol, Mr. Giger.
    You gave faces to my dreams and nightmares and sparked my imagination throughout my entire life. You will be missed.

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  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by Mx View Post
    I'm not sure it's possible for you to make any more assumptions based on personal opinion. My goodness.
    So WoW bleeding subs is my personal opinion then? How curious..

    And if it's not, do you think it's losing them because of good and popular changes Blizzard has made to the game?

  14. #454
    I am Murloc! roahn the warlock's Avatar
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    Let me put it this way. you know what DLC is, it's an excuse to not make a good game, and to continue to milk the people who do play. There was a time before DLC that developers didn't rely on DLC to make. enough money to post the profits the company wanted, they did it by making a game people want to buy.

    Vanilla, TBC, Wrath. They were games that people wanted to buy, and pay for. Say the game is old. Alright the game is old, make a new game that people want to buy and play. Don't beat a dead horse with DLC. Make a game that doesn't need it.
    It was never Hardcore Vs Casual. It was Socialites Vs. Solo players
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    World of Warcraft started life as a Computer Roleplaying Game, where part of the fun of the game experience was pretending to be your character. Stuff like applying poisons and eating food enhanced the verisimilitude of the experience of playing a fantasy character in another world. Now that game has changed to become a tactical arcade lobby game.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by unholytestament View Post
    I can say with absolute certainty that WoW will one day adopt a different payment model. It might be free to play or freemium or maybe the thing like EVE does and Wildstar is going to do.
    curious here, unholy; what is the method wildstar going to adopt? i never played eve, so i am uncertain what they do.

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Lizbeth View Post
    So WoW bleeding subs is my personal opinion then? How curious..

    And if it's not, do you think it's losing them because of good and popular changes Blizzard has made to the game?
    I think it's a variety of reasons but predominantly the age shift in the playerbase as a whole; original players were probably 16-22 when WoW started. Those same people are now 26-32. Changes in real life have more of an effect on one's choice in continuing to play a game than the game itself.

  17. #457
    Immortal KrazyK923's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pickynerd View Post
    Well I know I do, but it's these fools who keep blindly spend mommies money on shit that should be part of the fucking service we already pay for.

    It's not the money, but the principle.
    Hey look, the generalization that anybody who wants this is spending somebody else's money. And no, cosmetic extras should not "be part of the fucking service you pay for." Clearly you have no idea what your subscription actually pays for. It pays for access to their servers. The game. It does not give you access to things they specially made for the purpose of selling. Extra time went into it. I'm not sure what you understand.

    There's nothing principled about it. You're whining about something you're just wrong about. Its pretty simple.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2014-01-17 at 08:17 PM.
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  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    I think it's a variety of reasons but predominantly the age shift in the playerbase as a whole; original players were probably 16-22 when WoW started. Those same people are now 26-32. Changes in real life have more of an effect on one's choice in continuing to play a game than the game itself.
    i can attest to this. i'm 37 now and just don't have the time to play this game anymore. i hate being a casual and only want to raid hardcore like the old days. if i'm not raiding hardcore, then i want nothing to do with this game.

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Ateista View Post
    curious here, unholy; what is the method wildstar going to adopt? i never played eve, so i am uncertain what they do.
    Wildstar is going to do something where you use real money to buy an item called CREDD that can then be sold in game for in game currency. CREDD can also be used to pay your subscription. So if you make enough money in game you can buy CREDD off other players and never have to spend real money on your own subscription. It's technically still a subscription model, since someone somewhere had to pay for it, but it might appeal to the kinds of people who are much better at making money in game than I am.

    EVE's PLEX is similar. https://secure.eveonline.com/Plex/WhatIsPlex.aspx
    Last edited by unholytestament; 2014-01-17 at 08:13 PM. Reason: better link
    I mourn the loss of a man of true vision and talent. You were my idol, Mr. Giger.
    You gave faces to my dreams and nightmares and sparked my imagination throughout my entire life. You will be missed.

    Hans Rudolf Giger
    2/5/1940 - 5/12/2014

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Continuity View Post
    My deficiency is time, not money. I'll spend money to save time, and that's actually intelligent for someone with more money than time.

    I want to play end-game with more classes, not level more classes. This is a video game, the goal is to have fun and play with your friends.
    This was perfectly said.

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