The slippery slope has finally ended.

[Huehuecoyotl]

The one thing I learned to accept in wow as a massively multiplayer game is.

What choices other people chose will not affect the way I played or continue to play now or in the future .

That being said blizzard could offer end game gear to players for cash .
I'll still show up to raid and still kill bosses and earn my gear the old fashion way
And if we all worried about ourselves and what goals we set then why should we worry about others decisions that affects themselves

It's up to you to elect the quality of players you associate with . If you allow lazy gamers around you then Yeah there decisions effect the quality of your game so chose your friends wisely .

If you had read these threads properly, you would understand why this does affect you. As soon as you have the option to bypass levelling via an additional payment, there is no incentive for Blizzard to make any effort to improve how levelling works. So the next time you come to level, you will be faced with two choices; pay them extra to bypass it, or just accept it, regardless of how bad it is.

You only have to look at the problems with low/unbalanced server populations. It has taken them years to even start to address the issues, and the way they have "solved" them don't really address the issue. And why has it taken so long? Because they have paid transfers, and are making a nice little profit off them. If those paid transfers didn't exist, there would have been much more of an incentive to correct the issue earlier.

A lot of people complain about how F2P games work, with good reason. But what you have to understand is that bringing paid services into a subscription game makes it work like a F2P game; you get all the problems, but still have to pay a subscription as well. Is that really what you want as a customer?

[notorious98]

What's the difference between an Ebay-bought character and buying a character from Blizzard?

The Ebay character is usually max level for the current expansion, has raid iLevel gear, multiple toons with maxed out professions, and mounts/pets etc. A Blizzard bought character isn't max level (under the current conditions), has appropriate max level, entry level gear for beginning progression (Heroics dungeons), and nothing else.

- - - Updated - - -

If you had read these threads properly, you would understand why this does affect you. As soon as you have the option to bypass levelling via an additional payment, there is no incentive for Blizzard to make any effort to improve how levelling works. So the next time you come to level, you will be faced with two choices; pay them extra to bypass it, or just accept it, regardless of how bad it is.

It's pretty obvious that you haven't bothered to "read these threads properly". I already refuted everything you said previously and you've remained silent. Until you come back with the same tired argument that's based purely on your own conjecture.

You only have to look at the problems with low/unbalanced server populations. It has taken them years to even start to address the issues, and the way they have "solved" them don't really address the issue. And why has it taken so long? Because they have paid transfers, and are making a nice little profit off them. If those paid transfers didn't exist, there would have been much more of an incentive to correct the issue earlier.

I already refuted this in an earlier post, so I won't bother getting into it again, but how isn't the issue pretty well solved? What about the issue still exists aside from those servers that need it, but have yet to be merged?

A lot of people complain about how F2P games work, with good reason. But what you have to understand is that bringing paid services into a subscription game makes it work like a F2P game; you get all the problems, but still have to pay a subscription as well. Is that really what you want as a customer?

This isn't true at all. The subscription isn't for extra services. The subscription is to access the game and the content the game and company provides. While I can agree that cash shop mounts and pets is ridiculous in a P2P game, services are not. They could just not offer you transfers at all. Or any other service they currently offer (race change, faction change, etc.). I'm gonna start telling my cable company that I pay them a subscription fee every month, all movies they make me pay extra for should be free. The cable box? I shouldn't have to pay to rent that in order to get digital cable and HDTV because I'm already paying for the subscription. I'm sure they'll get right on changing that for me.

[Deleted]

That's not the same thing and the OP pointed out the difference. He said that they're officially selling them AND giving you one in the expansion. They have not said they are; they've only done a little bit of research into the possibility which doesn't mean it'll happen.

That's quite a lot of bullshit just to win some argument.

Ask yourself, will blizzard sell 90s in the future?

Unless you are an imbecile you will say yes.

It's not a slippery slope if it already predetermined.

[Huehuecoyotl]

It's pretty obvious that you haven't bothered to "read these threads properly". I already refuted everything you said previously and you've remained silent. Until you come back with the same tired argument that's based purely on your own conjecture.

Would you like me to explain what "refute" means? Because it doesn't mean what you think it does.

You didn't address my point at all, nor the logic behind it. You simply said that I was wrong "because Blizzard did all the work improving levelling in Cata". Well, feel free to round up people that think levelling was improved during that expansion, because I believe that was the point where a lot of people decided it got a LOT worse. They made CHANGES to levelling, largely because they had to in order to accomodate the Deathwing storyline. The result was an abomination to anyone who loves RPGs, as they turned levelling into an on-rails themepark ride. Now we see them offering the chance to bypass that terrible levelling by paying more money. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, I am calling fowl.

My point is based on economics; not mere conjecture as you assume. If Blizzard make money from people skipping content, it is in their interests that as many people skip it as possible; the more people that skip it, the more money they make. If they improve levelling, their income from people skipping content presumably goes down. The only reason they would have to change that would be if enough people were actually quitting because they hate levelling, that the income they make from people skipping it doesn't cover it.

I already refuted this in an earlier post, so I won't bother getting into it again, but how isn't the issue pretty well solved? What about the issue still exists aside from those servers that need it, but have yet to be merged?

The issue is far from solved. Look for the posts from those people still stuck on those servers, and you will see why they still have issues that CRZ and server grouping haven't solved. And it has taken YEARS, as I pointed out; if they weren't making massive sums from server transfers, there would have been more of a drive to fix this issue properly, and earlier.

This isn't true at all. The subscription isn't for extra services. The subscription is to access the game and the content the game and company provides. While I can agree that cash shop mounts and pets is ridiculous in a P2P game, services are not. They could just not offer you transfers at all. Or any other service they currently offer (race change, faction change, etc.). I'm gonna start telling my cable company that I pay them a subscription fee every month, all movies they make me pay extra for should be free. The cable box? I shouldn't have to pay to rent that in order to get digital cable and HDTV because I'm already paying for the subscription. I'm sure they'll get right on changing that for me.

Any thing that they are offering as a paid service would be better as a service covered by the subscription, with restrictions. Want a server transfer? Fine, but it is a 6 month cooldown per character, so choose wisely rather than just hopping around. Want to skip content? Fine, if you have two level 100 characters, you can promote a third. Choose wisely, because you will have to get another two to 100 before you can promote another.

Paid services warp the thinking of the company offering them; because they will make decisions based on what impact it will have on those additional income streams. Blizzard doesn't NEED that money either, WoW generates huge profits without them. Sadly Blizzard have decided that "huge" isn't quite big enough, and a portion of their playerbase seems to agree with them.

[Deleted]

Been hearing people say that since the second month of vanilla!

So yes I give no fucks to you.

You've heard people say that since the second month of vanilla? Oh well, not like we had a massive loss of active subscribers since Cataclysm hit. Not like they halved the community or anything. All those people are obviously just lying and will be right back!



On topic. The problem is that Blizzard is now for the first time selling a real advantage. NOT having to level IS an advantage. You have to invest less time, you can get a 90 on any server at any time and any class you want to play in the future and all you have to do is pay some extra. This is while Blizzard is still charging us a subscription.
In the time they introduced TWO mounts for rated PvP that aren't gladiator mounts they introduced several times that ammount to the cash shop. They are spending more and more effort onto the cash shop, which in itself wouldn't be a problem if WoW WOULDN'T BE A GAME WITH A DAMN SUBSCRIPTION BUT A F2P GAME.
They are going to where games such as SWTOR have already gone and are picking up speed. But what all of you and Blizzard conveniently forget is that WoW still has a monthly subscription. All these services we have to pay extra for, because people like you are willing to pay, should be free.

[Deleted]

You've heard people say that since the second month of vanilla? Oh well, not like we had a massive loss of active subscribers since Cataclysm hit. Not like they halved the community or anything. All those people are obviously just lying and will be right back!



On topic. The problem is that Blizzard is now for the first time selling a real advantage. NOT having to level IS an advantage. You have to invest less time, you can get a 90 on any server at any time and any class you want to play in the future and all you have to do is pay some extra. This is while Blizzard is still charging us a subscription.
In the time they introduced TWO mounts for rated PvP that aren't gladiator mounts they introduced several times that ammount to the cash shop. They are spending more and more effort onto the cash shop, which in itself wouldn't be a problem if WoW WOULDN'T BE A GAME WITH A DAMN SUBSCRIPTION BUT A F2P GAME.
They are going to where games such as SWTOR have already gone and are picking up speed. But what all of you and Blizzard conveniently forget is that WoW still has a monthly subscription. All these services we have to pay extra for, because people like you are willing to pay, should be free.

Blizzards future plan:

Fuck it, why not both? People are still going to play it, just complain some more.

[Lillemus]

You've heard people say that since the second month of vanilla? Oh well, not like we had a massive loss of active subscribers since Cataclysm hit. Not like they halved the community or anything. All those people are obviously just lying and will be right back!

From what I've learned the problem Cata and up was not so much that they lost a huge amount of subscribers, but the fact that they didn't get new ones. Why they aren't getting new ones is up for discussion, but it seems that the "return" business is not as large as a lot of people believe it to be. Needless to say, since Blizzard have released no numbers on these issues, we can only speculate.
But the 1 number they did give us to work with is that there has been 100 million accounts through World of Warcraft (This most likely includes free accounts as well, so the real number is obviously substantially lower). But even if we halve it, or take 1/3 as "real" accounts we are still looking at a total of 33 million accounts gone through the World of Warcraft.

So now I ask you, do you think that a new player would be likely to continue subscribing if he was given one free level 90 with the purchase of WoD compared to the ardous (and very very lonely, multiplayer considered) grind to 90?

And at the end of the day, I don't see this particular implementation having a huge effect (Though it could be the beginning of slippery slope, not the end), and if you so dislike it, vote with your wallet.

[Deleted]

Blizzards future plan:

Fuck it, why not both? People are still going to play it, just complain some more.

Honestly I'm not the type to threaten with the whole "Do that and I quit thing." but for me this is kind of crossing a treshold right here and now and if they get away with it it's completly and absolutely certain they'll push the boundaries even further soon enough. Which makes me question why I should be invested in the game at all.
I actually leveled 7 90s, which took quite a bit of time and now people will basically just pop in and buy them. Anyone claiming this wont give them a huge advantage in several aspects of the game is delusional. It will.

And the same logic fallacy they use right here could be used to justify about anything:

"Why not let them buy achievments? It wont influence your gaming!"
"Why not let them buy rare/drop mounts? It wont influence your gaming!"
"Why not let them buy PvP titles/rating? It wont influence your gaming!"
"Why not let them buy gear? Farming it is hard and tedious and the drop rates suck, it wont influence your gaming afterall!"

So now I ask you, do you think that a new player would be likely to continue subscribing if he was given one free level 90 with the purchase of WoD compared to the ardous (and very very lonely, multiplayer considered) grind to 90?

And at the end of the day, I don't see this particular implementation having a huge effect (Though it could be the beginning of slippery slope, not the end), and if you so dislike it, vote with your wallet.

This isn't about giving everyone ONE free 90 with their purchase, this is about them going to SELL level 90s for MONEY. That's a big difference right there and that is going to have a huge impact on the game and the way people act. It directly benefits those more willing or able to invest huge loads of money.

[Lillemus]

Honestly I'm not the type to threaten with the whole "Do that and I quit thing." but for me this is kind of crossing a treshold right here and now and if they get away with it it's completly and absolutely certain they'll push the boundaries even further soon enough. Which makes me question why I should be invested in the game at all.
I actually leveled 7 90s, which took quite a bit of time and now people will basically just pop in and buy them. Anyone claiming this wont give them a huge advantage in several aspects of the game is delusional. It will.

And the same logic fallacy they use right here could be used to justify about anything:

"Why not let them buy achievments? It wont influence your gaming!"
"Why not let them buy rare/drop mounts? It wont influence your gaming!"
"Why not let them buy PvP titles/rating? It wont influence your gaming!"
"Why not let them buy gear? Farming it is hard and tedious and the drop rates suck, it wont influence your gaming afterall!"

Alright, seems we disagree. Why will being able to buy a lvl 90 have a huge impact, and how am I delusional? Makes more sense to me if it's a max level character, but it's my understanding this service is intended for WoD.

Edit: The list of things you mentioned are all considered achievements and rewards, leveling to 90 is not really considered as such.

[Deleted]

I wont be happy if they sell level 90 boosts, that's pay 2 win no matter how you look at it. I can see the logic of giving away 1 free 90 with WoD but selling them in the cash shop will be Blizzard taking the piss.

[Varabently]

I think the idea makes sense to get new people a quick way to catch up (not that's it's that hard to catch up), or for older players to come back. I think no one really knows what the impact of this sort of change will be. There is a legitimate concern about low level dungeons/bgs having less people. One thing to remember is that the people paying for levels maybe would never have leveled in the first place.

I think blizzard is treading in dangerous waters here because clearly this is perceived as a bad thing by many people. I think they are approaching the limit of the types of things they can provide for extra cash. Pets and mounts are fine because they are cosmetic. I wouldn't mind them selling transmog gear either. Cosmetic stuff seems fine.

In my opinion, paying for stuff with cash should be limited to cosmetic items and things you can get elsewhere. There shouldn't be anything in there that's unique to the cash shop unless it's completely cosmetic. I think buying levels is borderline cosmetic. You can level on your own (Takes a few days /played) and it doesn't inherently give you any benefit over anyone else. But I am slightly concerned that blizz may sell other things that aren't so cosmetic.

I don't think it's time to worry about that just yet.

[Deleted]

Alright, seems we disagree. Why will being able to buy a lvl 90 have a huge impact, and how am I delusional? Makes more sense to me if it's a max level character, but it's my understanding this service is intended for WoD.

Because they have a huge advantage of those who don't. They can have a level 90 of any class on any server at any time they so desire. People not using this will be at a huge disadvantage when it comes to that, will meet less players leveling (level bgs/dungeons), because Blizzard will always keep this in mind when doing future content or redoing old content, it will negatively impact on PvP ("Oh that class is strong, luckily I don't have to go through the hassle of leveling it, here's 25€ Blizz!") and so on and on and on.

Edit: The list of things you mentioned are all considered achievements and rewards, leveling to 90 is not really considered as such.

Having a level 90 character is the reward for actually investing the time and effort and leveling it. What you consider it doesn't change that.

[Jester Joe]

I can't recall the last time a "test" for something like this ever failed to make the cut after they announced it. Maybe the D3 auction house? And that lasted a long time before it got pulled and the ramifications on the game are very obvious. Any negative (and positive too keep your pants on) effects on the game by this could range from large to small but will not be obvious at all. There are many factors that go into things like player skill or subscription retention which could be affected.

EXP potion in the US/EU servers. They did test it, it never happened.

Also this thread is just so ridiculous. Apparently it is impossible to have an opinion in general, you're called a "dumb drooling fanboy" basically or something.
People focus so much on the disagreements rather than the agreements. Seems like most people get buying a level 90 is not P2W, yet they're afraid of what's to come. Which is fine, I think more people would be willing to agree if Blizzard ends up going down this supposed "slippery slope", they will lose more than they'd gain.

This isn't about giving everyone ONE free 90 with their purchase, this is about them going to SELL level 90s for MONEY. That's a big difference right there and that is going to have a huge impact on the game and the way people act. It directly benefits those more willing or able to invest huge loads of money.

It's not unlikely to believe those who can invest a huge load of money cannot invest time to get the level 90s, so technically, following that logic, you could say people who have more time have an advantage in WoW, so they're evening it in the major part of the game, leveling. People with more time will still have more gold, more gear, etc.

Because they have a huge advantage of those who don't. They can have a level 90 of any class on any server at any time they so desire. People not using this will be at a huge disadvantage when it comes to that, will meet less players leveling (level bgs/dungeons), because Blizzard will always keep this in mind when doing future content or redoing old content, it will negatively impact on PvP ("Oh that class is strong, luckily I don't have to go through the hassle of leveling it, here's 25€ Blizz!") and so on and on and on.

I dunno, I wouldn't consider anyone to have a huge advantage over me no matter how many level 90s they buy. I started playing at the end of Wrath but I have almost one of every class at 90, just missing 3, which I'm gonna get a free 90, so technically 2. It's really not that much of an advantage unless you're comparing new players to new players, or just people who hate leveling.

[Lillemus]

Because they have a huge advantage of those who don't. They can have a level 90 of any class on any server at any time they so desire. People not using this will be at a huge disadvantage when it comes to that, will meet less players leveling (level bgs/dungeons), because Blizzard will always keep this in mind when doing future content or redoing old content, it will negatively impact on PvP ("Oh that class is strong, luckily I don't have to go through the hassle of leveling it, here's 25€ Blizz!") and so on and on and on.

In terms of meeting players during leveling, it is true that this will most likely have a negative impact on that aspect, but this aspect is dying as it is, I have leveled 5 characters to 90, 2 of them through this expansion, and I didn't meet any players that I have had further interaction with, anecdotal evidence yes, but we are all just, but none the less, it did not appear to be a social extravaganza and was more reminiscent of a wasteland. Is breaking it further helping this? No. Could it be a method of attracting new players who are more interested in the multiplayer part, imo yes.

And I'm a bit baffled at the idea of having a level 90 character anywhere any time being a major advantage, if anything it just seems arbitrary. If I'm doing it to play with my friends isn't it a good thing that I can jump right in instead of using XX hours of tedious gameplay to be allowed to do that?

And you still have to level it the final 10 levels, however you will most likely encounter far more activity on these levels (more importantly, activity on your OWN server), which is what the second M stands for.

Redoing old content shouldn't even be on the table, it's huge amount of effort for very very little reward. What would be your argument for a revamping of zones IF the alternative was that the same amount of energy would be put into leveling zones for the next expansion (Not likely, but then again, neither is another revamp)?

As for the PvP, I mean, if you're truly a fotm reroller, odds are you already have all characters at level 90, and if anything this will be an incentive for Blizzard to keep the game balanced, because honest to god, if someone spends XX€ on getting a fotm character just to see it hotfix nerfed 1 week later I will simply smile at the additional XX€ given to Blizzard (Maybe even invest).

Having a level 90 character is the reward for actually investing the time and effort and leveling it. What you consider it doesn't change that.

Having a lvl 90 character is indeed a reward, but not a highly regarded one, again, keeping in mind that level 90 will not be the max level at the time of the release of this game.

[hrugner]

I can't remember anyone saying they'd never sell char levels. The slippery slope has always been that they'd eventually sell end-raid gear. And they don't. And they won't. Getting a max level char has nothing to do with Pay to Win, so no slope.

All you have to do is look slightly higher on the slope to people's concerns with the "Enduring Elixir of Wisdom" to see what I'm talking about.

[Ordinator]

"Last expansion we spent a massive amount of time and resources remaking all of Azeroth. New zones, quests, and dungeons for all our adoring customers so leveling won't be so tedious. Next expansion.. for a little extra money, you can say fuck that shit and go to panda land"
-Blizzard

[Lillemus]

"Last expansion we spent a massive amount of time and resources remaking all of Azeroth. New zones, quests, and dungeons for all our adoring customers so leveling won't be so tedious. Next expansion.. for a little extra money, you can say fuck that shit and go to panda land"
-Blizzard

This could also be considered an admittance of a mistake, they spent a massive amount of time without it yielding the result they desired, then you change your tactic. How many times on average do you pull on a door when it says push? Just curious.

[Ordinator]

This could also be considered an admittance of a mistake, they spent a massive amount of time without it yielding the result they desired, then you change your tactic. How many times on average do you pull on a door when it says push? Just curious.

Sometimes i feel like analogies are giant misdirections. Cata leveling was lackluster. The answer to that isn't eliminating leveling for cash.

[Deleted]

But even if they do it, they're not selling max level characters when WoD launches.

[Infernix]

I wonder if Blizzard would be okay with me selling level 90s on Ebay. I mean, I won't have end-game gear and whatnot, surely they'd be okay with that.