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  1. #681
    I think the problem here is that Blizzard tried to slowly introduce micro-transactions into the game and succeeded. It's been going on for years now and every time they have pushed the boundaries a little further. At first it was a services, then a few pets and most people said it's nothing and doesn't change anything.. Well, maybe they didn't change much on their own but take a step back now and take all those cash shop related topics into account. WoW is already following the F2P freemium model now.. only without the free part. You still have to pay the subscription on top of everything.

    I guess you can't really blame them though, they're just taking advantage of their monopoly. If we had 3+ roughly equal MMOs on the market and lots of competition between them, they could never have got away with this.

  2. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by Lizbeth View Post
    I think the problem here is that Blizzard tried to slowly introduce micro-transactions into the game and succeeded. It's been going on for years now and every time they have pushed the boundaries a little further. At first it was a services, then a few pets and most people said it's nothing and doesn't change anything.. Well, maybe they didn't change much on their own but take a step back now and take all those cash shop related topics into account. WoW is already following the F2P freemium model now.. only without the free part. You still have to pay the subscription on top of everything.

    I guess you can't really blame them though, they're just taking advantage of their monopoly. If we had 3+ roughly equal MMOs on the market and lots of competition between them, they could never have got away with this.
    It isn't a monopoly by any stretch of the imagination. WoW doesn't just compete with other MMOs. It competes with a broad swath of other video games and other forms of entertainment. It's a commonly propagated fallacy that entertainment products only compete with other entertainment products that fall into the same very, very narrow category. WoW still has to have at least a perceived value, dollar for dollar, that exceeds that of spending that money on other entertainment products, even if there were zero other MMOs on the market.

  3. #683
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizbeth View Post
    I guess you can't really blame them though, they're just taking advantage of their monopoly. If we had 3+ roughly equal MMOs on the market and lots of competition between them, they could never have got away with this.
    Gotten away with what? Charging a subscription while selling things in a cash shop? 90% of free to play games also offer subscription packages. Why does it make a difference what the base level of the game costs? Why is it only bad when Blizzard does it, but not when any other company does it? Magazines, Newspapers, Netflix, Cable Companies, Insurance, Car companies, Airlines, Amazon Prime etc all charge you a subscription fee while also selling you additional items at an extra cost.

    Why is it so wrong for a subscription game to sell additional things at an additional cost?
    Last edited by rhorle; 2014-01-19 at 06:31 PM.
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  4. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Gotten away with what? Charging a subscription while selling things in a cash shop? 90% of free to play games also offer subscription packages? Why does it make a difference what the base level of the game costs? Why is it only bad when Blizzard does it, but not when any other company does it? Magazines, Newspapers, Netflix, Cable Companies, Insurance, Car companies, Airlines, Amazon Prime etc all charge you a subscription fee while also selling you additional items at an extra cost.

    Why is it so wrong for a subscription game to sell additional things at an additional cost?
    Because Blizzard is not supposed to be a business damnit! It's supposed to be a non-profit organisation with the intent to spread happiness and joy!

  5. #685
    Quote Originally Posted by Lillemus View Post
    Because Blizzard is not supposed to be a business damnit! It's supposed to be a non-profit organisation with the intent to spread happiness and joy!
    Sarcasm aside, they can do both. The problem with this shitty business attitude is that it goes for the MOST possible profit they can suck out. Which means 100% of the time they will disregard game quality if it means they make one more dollar. It's really sad seeing people perpetuating this toxic philosophy.

  6. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix View Post
    I look forward to seeing the WoD threads raging about how terrible everyone 90-100 in dungeons and out in the world leveling.

    Remember all those silly things that you see people doing while leveling up? Priests in melee combat, mages hard-casting Pyro, Pally tanks with a two-hander...That's what the WoD 90-100 experience is going to be like. All because Blizz is hemorrhaging subs and is desperate for cash and players are inherently lazy.
    Are players also inherently flushed with cash?

    And honestly, I would rather play with someone with the desire to play than a burnt out player who goes afk half the time because that's technically the bare minimum he needs to do to claw his way through an instance. At least the new guy will be willing to learn, and if he's not, well then he's going to be a dick no matter the level we play with him.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Sarcasm aside, they can do both. The problem with this shitty business attitude is that it goes for the MOST possible profit they can suck out. Which means 100% of the time they will disregard game quality if it means they make one more dollar. It's really sad seeing people perpetuating this toxic philosophy.
    Are they cutting back on developers? Because that would be the first obvious step to suck more profit out of the game, which would obviously hurt the quality of the game. Just because YOU don't like the game anymore doesn't mean the quality has gone down in general.

    The majority of your posts are personal opinions you claim as facts, but that doesn't make them fact though.

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by Lillemus View Post

    Are they cutting back on developers? Because that would be the first obvious step to suck more profit out of the game, which would obviously hurt the quality of the game. Just because YOU don't like the game anymore doesn't mean the quality has gone down in general.

    The majority of your posts are personal opinions you claim as facts, but that doesn't make them fact though.
    Yes they did cut back on devs actually. Hopefully WoD will be good if it's true that they brought the old devs over from Titan.
    Don't remember saying they're facts. Do I need to start each sentence with 'In my opinion' for you?

  8. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Sarcasm aside, they can do both. The problem with this shitty business attitude is that it goes for the MOST possible profit they can suck out. Which means 100% of the time they will disregard game quality if it means they make one more dollar. It's really sad seeing people perpetuating this toxic philosophy.
    Yep, exactly.. business doesn't mean having to sell low quality products for insane prices. It's just right now they're basically a monopoly when it comes to sub based MMOs so they can get away with it. Which to be honest is a shame because I used to like WoW. But this new model is making it unplayable because I refuse to pay anything on top of the already expensive sub (compared to other games) and don't want to be a "second class citizen" or spend countless hours of farming stuff and having to compete with players who can get the same result instantly by opening their wallets.

  9. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Yes they did cut back on devs actually. Hopefully WoD will be good if it's true that they brought the old devs over from Titan.
    Don't remember saying they're facts. Do I need to start each sentence with 'In my opinion' for you?
    You've stated several of your opinions as fact in the past.
    And well, if you have any numbers on when / why they cut back on Devs that would be cool.
    Meanwhile here is a quote from Blizzard in an interview with eurogamer from nov 9 2013:
    "While subscriber numbers have reduced steadily over recent years, World of Warcraft remains the world's most popular subscription MMO nine years into its life, and Blizzard said it was investing more resources into its ongoing development than ever before."

  10. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Yes they did cut back on devs actually. Hopefully WoD will be good if it's true that they brought the old devs over from Titan.
    Don't remember saying they're facts. Do I need to start each sentence with 'In my opinion' for you?
    Link proof that they cut back on devs? All I've ever seen was that they added devs, like you just said from Titan, never anything about firing people.
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  11. #691
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Gotten away with what? Charging a subscription while selling things in a cash shop? 90% of free to play games also offer subscription packages. Why does it make a difference what the base level of the game costs? Why is it only bad when Blizzard does it, but not when any other company does it? Magazines, Newspapers, Netflix, Cable Companies, Insurance, Car companies, Airlines, Amazon Prime etc all charge you a subscription fee while also selling you additional items at an extra cost.

    Why is it so wrong for a subscription game to sell additional things at an additional cost?
    If Blizzard ran Netflix, you would be paying a monthly subscription and you would have to pay extra every couple of years to get a big bundle of new content. Oh, and if you wanted to change which device you watched it on, they would charge you $25 extra.

    And they would be planning to charge an extra fee on top that would let you skip watching the last two seasons of Heroes, because it was a bit shit.
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    Over the last 10 years, Blizzard has taken over $10bn from MMO players. Take a look around your game...do you see $10bn worth of content available to you? Do you see even a tiny fraction of that in relevant content? Now ask me again why I dislike what Blizzard has done to the MMO industry.

  12. #692
    Quote Originally Posted by Lizbeth View Post
    Yep, exactly.. business doesn't mean having to sell low quality products for insane prices. It's just right now they're basically a monopoly when it comes to sub based MMOs so they can get away with it. Which to be honest is a shame because I used to like WoW. But this new model is making it unplayable because I refuse to pay anything on top of the already expensive sub (compared to other games) and don't want to be a "second class citizen" or spend countless hours of farming stuff and having to compete with players who can get the same result instantly by opening their wallets.
    World of Warcraft is a low quality product how?
    And I agree, if they continue by adding more items to their ingame store, specifically items with more impact, such as crafting mats or items then I will also quit the game. But with the level 90, I that see more as an attempt to get new players involved in the game than a money grabbing (which I suppose getting new players could also be considered as). If they start slipping down the slippery slope however, it's a different story.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    If Blizzard ran Netflix, you would be paying a monthly subscription and you would have to pay extra every couple of years to get a big bundle of new content. Oh, and if you wanted to change which device you watched it on, they would charge you $25 extra.

    And they would be planning to charge an extra fee on top that would let you skip watching the last two seasons of Heroes, because it was a bit shit.
    And you are providing a fan site with traffic increasing the overall interest in the game (and their company in general), well done sir!

  13. #693
    Epic! Lazuli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    Selling level 90s impacts you how, exactly?
    My thoughts exactly. How would it affect any of us since we can simply choose not to use that feature, plus it's so easy to level in WoW nowadays we may as well just be given free 90's. The fact is it doesn't really affect you unless you use it. There are a ton of things I ignore in this game, I'm sure others can do the same. Not the end of the world(of warcraft).

    Just like I avoid LFR like the plague, I may hate it, I may think "well.. may as well just put a vendor with free gear for everyone in LFR ilvls" but I'm not gonna quit over some stupid shit.

    I think the issues here with most people are they refuse to accept the fact that after playing a game for 8+ years they may be burnt out, so you gotta nit pick at dumb ass reasons why you are "drawing the line". Haha...

    I hated the panda's in MoP, know what I did? Ignored the expansion 90% of its life span. I am coming back full swing in WoD and hold no grudges. Sometimes you disagree with shit, tbh most people here will not care and it's pointless to QQ about.

    WoW is still the best and highest quality MMO out there imo, no matter what happens. The great thing about this game is there is always alternatives, unlike certain other MMO's.
    Last edited by Lazuli; 2014-01-19 at 07:07 PM.

  14. #694
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    If Blizzard ran Netflix, you would be paying a monthly subscription and you would have to pay extra every couple of years to get a big bundle of new content. Oh, and if you wanted to change which device you watched it on, they would charge you $25 extra. And they would be planning to charge an extra fee on top that would let you skip watching the last two seasons of Heroes, because it was a bit shit.
    You mean like I have to pay for DVD's and streaming? And I have to pay extra for Blu-ray discs? And if you want more then one disc out at a time they charge you more per month? Oh wait, I forgot that it is okay for other companies to do it just as long as they are not Blizzard Entertainment, INC.
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  15. #695
    Quote Originally Posted by Lillemus View Post
    World of Warcraft is a low quality product how?
    And I agree, if they continue by adding more items to their ingame store, specifically items with more impact, such as crafting mats or items then I will also quit the game. But with the level 90, I that see more as an attempt to get new players involved in the game than a money grabbing (which I suppose getting new players could also be considered as). If they start slipping down the slippery slope however, it's a different story.
    Well, buying a level 90 already gives you a very significant advantage. In fact, I think it's worse than selling starter gear. Well unless they get rid of daily CDs from professions. And that's not all.. they also sell BoE pets you can sell to other players so it's an indirect way of selling gold. Size of your wallet already decides how successful you will be in game and while it is possible to achieve the same by grinding, it already affects the game and punishes those unwilling to spend money.

  16. #696
    The sky is falling!! The sky is falling!!

    Here's what gets me. What is there for someone with a 90 of every class. Don't say no lifer, it takes no time at all to reach 90 guys. The free character to 90 doesn't really offer this crowd anything. I know it's hard to balance new classes but it's one of the things I look forward to every expansion, and really they did a pretty good job with monks. It's just a bad choice all around for a feature. I was so looking forward to the possibility of a Demon Hunter or Shadow Hunter or what have you. While I am looking forward to this expansion, I'm scared it will be stale. My 2 cents.

  17. #697
    Quote Originally Posted by Lizbeth View Post
    Well, buying a level 90 already gives you a very significant advantage. In fact, I think it's worse than selling starter gear. Well unless they get rid of daily CDs from professions. And that's not all.. they also sell BoE pets you can sell to other players so it's an indirect way of selling gold. Size of your wallet already decides how successful you will be in game and while it is possible to achieve the same by grinding, it already affects the game and punishes those unwilling to spend money.
    No point in arguing about this, we just have different views on how significant of an advantage it is.

  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So why can f2p games have a monthly subscription but a pay to play game can not have a cash shop? The flaw in your reasoning is that there is nothing wrong with a subscription service selling additional items at an extra cost. Many companies do it that range across all types of products. Blizzard certainly isn't the first and they won't be the last.

    Why should everything be free just because you pay a monthly fee?
    F2P games having things like premium memberships in place of subscriptions like WoW is different due to the WoW subscription being required just to access the servers. If I took a break from the game and just wanted to do something here and there every once in a while then I could without having to plop down a monthly fee.

    US and EU are paying for the expansion and the subscription. Nothing is free and is already being charged for. If Blizzard wants to piece out content then they need to swap to a la carte or adapt the F2P model with a premium membership as optional rather than a required subscription. Any game with a required subscription is not F2P.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2014-01-19 at 07:43 PM.

  19. #699
    Went to the whole thread, here are some highlights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post

    Also there's this statement from Bashiok:

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Ideally no one has ever hit the level cap of the last expansion, looked at their dungeon blues, and thought "I win."
    http://www.crispygamer.com/comics/di...008-01-13.aspx xD

    Quote Originally Posted by Tastyfish View Post
    SO they are testing something they ARE GOING TO DO.
    so why test it out if the plan is to make it work anyhow? :P
    wouldn't it just be released when it's done? :P
    Probably because they want to test that the system is working properly. When they were going to introduce faction transfers and character re customization they tested the systems on the PTR first.

    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    Blizzard would lose millions of subs out of player protest if they put items with stats in the shop, and we all know how Blizzard is when it comes to corporate profits. Stats in shop = lost subs = lost money. The lost sub money would outweigh the profits from the shop and therefore Blizzard won't do it.
    Seeing how people just nod at everything Blizzard does I doubt it. Hell I think there's even a couple people in this thread that have said that they wouldn't care if Blizzard sold gear with stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    Blizzard is the one that constantly says "Anything we do takes away from MoP development"
    That takes me back to the whole "Blizzard didn't make a pet for the anniversary because it would have taken time out of WoD development" yet somehow they found time to make a new store mount.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    I would not mind leveling again if the experience could be improved. However based on the only improvements has made (reduced XP and Cata) I am hesitant to hope that Blizzard could make leveling enjoyable again.
    I feel that is part of the problem people have with this. Instead of them going back and try to fix the leveling process they simply take the option that makes them more money and sell lvl 90.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadblock View Post
    I'm reading all this back and forth and one thing keeps playing in my head.

    Blizzard is selling you the opposite of content.

    Read that again.
    A company is selling you a fucking void and you're thanking them for it.

    Capitalism truly rots the brain...
    That's an interesting way to see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lastgope View Post
    KEYWORD is testing
    The thing here is that is the system what they're going to test, not the possibility of selling the character boost.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Gotten away with what? Charging a subscription while selling things in a cash shop? 90% of free to play games also offer subscription packages. Why does it make a difference what the base level of the game costs? Why is it only bad when Blizzard does it, but not when any other company does it? Magazines, Newspapers, Netflix, Cable Companies, Insurance, Car companies, Airlines, Amazon Prime etc all charge you a subscription fee while also selling you additional items at an extra cost.

    Why is it so wrong for a subscription game to sell additional things at an additional cost?
    Most (if not all, I don't know all of them so can't check them) of the f2p MMOs give you something extra when you pay a subscription. Either be extra xp/money/drops, store currency/discounts, mounts or other gifts or in some retarded cases like swtor interface options. That's why they "get away with it" the subscription is something extra and comes with extra stuff, not something that is required to play the game. Maybe your other examples can be proof that a company will go as far as its costumers let it.

    I don't think the slippery slope hasn't ended yet. However we're not as far as some seem to think. If anything the trend continues. As has been stated before Blizzard has said that they wouldn't do a lot of things, yet they ended doing them as years passed and while I can't assure that they will eventually sell stuff that give power I feel that the day will arrive sooner than we expect. For me the game is a very low point at the moment(as in my personal feelings towards the game, not as a general opinion of the quality of it), not because of this alone. A lot of factors have gone into this feeling. For now I'm willing to give WoD a chance, but I don't see myself getting it on launch or even at all. It depends on how the things look as development goes by.

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So why can f2p games have a monthly subscription but a pay to play game can not have a cash shop? The flaw in your reasoning is that there is nothing wrong with a subscription service selling additional items at an extra cost. Many companies do it that range across all types of products. Blizzard certainly isn't the first and they won't be the last.

    Why should everything be free just because you pay a monthly fee?
    What the actual hell. F2P games don't have a subscription and if they do they usually give you full access to everything they provide anyway. We're paying a subscription specifically to have full access, otherwise we wouldn't need said subscription to begin with. Stuff isn't free, we're already paying for it.

    Just like the selling of increased experience potions impacted every ones game play? Funny how no one complains about that still. What if selling of level X is only for certain markets? What if they limit it to Asian realms? It also isn't an arduous grind to 90, even for a 100% new player. Leveling is pretty fast, and if it is an alt you can power level to 90 in a few days. Will some still by a level 90? Sure, people have disposable income.
    The potion wasn't for the European market but the Asian alone and honestly I couldn't care less about Asia. Aslo again your argumentation is lackluster and bad. By your same logic they should sell about anything ingame, afterall people have disposable income and what's wrong with them doing so? How about coding additional content only available through the store?
    New raid patch? Buy it at the store. New PvP season? Buy it at the store. How about they limit battlegrounds to 1-3 a day or even a week and then you can buy a pass from the store to allow you to join more? Nothing wrong with them making a bit of money, right?

    But leveling is by no means arduous. It sounds like you haven't leveled in a while.
    I've leveled every but one class to 90. Are you by any chance American?

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