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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Zolascius View Post
    If your definition of 'paranoid' is 'logical', then sure.

    The cash cow mentality has been going on for a few years now, Blizzard are just being more and more obvious about it as time goes on.

    Of course it's going to be impossible to convince someone with 15 capped characters of anything negative.
    The game has trended more and more, with every expansion, towards increased focus on the most current content. The logical end of that path is allowing people to skip leveling through old content. It takes quite a logical leap to go from that to selling things related to advancement in current content. Even the RAF has always cut off when it hits the level of new content. The 90 boost is perfectly in line with that philosophy. It isn't as radical as you guys are making it out to be. It's the logical progression of the philosophy the game has been founded on since at least Burning Crusade: Old content is trivialized by new content.

  2. #342
    Sorry but while slippery slope is a fallacy, that doesn't mean it won't happen or is unlikely.

    People were worried of boosts being in the store since it was added. What were they told? Slippery slope fallacy it won't happen. Now people are worried about gear and more being added, and the response is the same.

    Will it happen?
    Maybe. Slippery slope has been correct in the past and with other games. So it MAY happen again, which is what some are worried about. In addition, the statements given by Blizzard for why this is being added can easily be applied to gear. Their reasoning for this also support purchasing gear and more.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Cassidin View Post
    Stupid analogy simply because you don't agree with it. In case YOU didn't realise it, in WoW you DONT compete to see who has the most characters. Having more characters does NOT give you an unfair advantage unless you consider the advantage of stroking your epeen that you have more characters than others.
    No, stupid analogy because, as I already told you, lv 90 is ALREADY part of the package. Who said anything about having more character? I'm comparing a guy who spent 3min on a character and he has lv 90 because he flipped his credit card, vs a guy that spent 3min on a character and has lv 2 because he didnt buy an instant 90. It's an 88 levels advantage.

    Ok then...... part of my package includes one TIVO box.... I can pay extra to have an additional TIVO box... it doesnt make me able to watch TV faster - I cant watch more programs than anyone else - it just makes it more convenient because other members of the family can watch other programmes in other rooms. Having the channels I subscribe to is part of my package.... but if I get a second TIVO I still only get the same channels... so should to second box be free because its still the channels that are part of my basic sub?
    I have the feeling i must get high to understand how this is related or analog, in any possible way, to WoW.

    Unfortunately... this "slope" exists only in the mind of the paranoid.
    Unfortunately, ppl like you said that from the start and I still see things going to the P2W direction.
    Last edited by Orly; 2014-01-20 at 05:20 PM.

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Sorry but while slippery slope is a fallacy, that doesn't mean it won't happen or is unlikely.

    People were worried of boosts being in the store since it was added. What were they told? Slippery slope fallacy it won't happen. Now people are worried about gear and more being added, and the response is the same.

    Will it happen?
    Maybe. Slippery slope has been correct in the past and with other games. So it MAY happen again, which is what some are worried about. In addition, the statements given by Blizzard for why this is being added can easily be applied to gear. Their reasoning for this also support purchasing gear and more.
    The fallacy is not stating that it is POSSIBLE for something to happen. The fallacy is stating that it is inevitable, or even more likely, because of the 90-boost. One simply does not follow to the other. The trivialization of old content is a fundamental core principle of WoW's design. This is 100% in line with that principle. It isn't a change in direction whatsoever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orly View Post
    No, stupid analogy because, as I already told you, lv 90 is ALREADY part of the package. Who said about having more character? I'm comparing a guy who spent 3min on a character and he has lv 90 because he flipped his credit card, vs a guy that spent 3min on a character and has lv 2 because he didnt buy an instant 90. It's an 88 levels advantage.

    I have the feeling i must get high to understand how this is related or analog, in any possible way, to WoW.

    Unfortunately, ppl like you said that from the start and I still see things going to the P2W direction.
    If I didn't buy Mists, you would have an advantage over me, and quite a large one. Why is that OK?

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The game has trended more and more, with every expansion, towards increased focus on the most current content. The logical end of that path is allowing people to skip leveling through old content. It takes quite a logical leap to go from that to selling things related to advancement in current content. Even the RAF has always cut off when it hits the level of new content. The 90 boost is perfectly in line with that philosophy. It isn't as radical as you guys are making it out to be. It's the logical progression of the philosophy the game has been founded on since at least Burning Crusade: Old content is trivialized by new content.
    The game has also trended more and more with each expansion to having a growing cash shop. The number of mounts in MoP is more that what was added through Wrath and Cata.

    And again, that reasoning applies to selling gear too, which would get even more backlash. Buying full heroic thunder forged would be helping skip over content too, should that be added?

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    The game has also trended more and more with each expansion to having a growing cash shop. The number of mounts in MoP is more that what was added through Wrath and Cata.

    And again, that reasoning applies to selling gear too, which would get even more backlash. Buying full heroic thunder forged would be helping skip over content too, should that be added?
    No, because that trivializes CURRENT content. That's the part everyone seems to be having trouble getting their heads around here. The game is about current content. That's what the game is built on. Every inch of WoW's design is about that. Forcing people to level through old content has always been dramatically out of sync with the rest of the design of the game. When Cataclysm used piles of resources on fixing old content, it's pretty obvious how much of a mistake it was, because it was so fundamentally at odds with the rest of the game.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The fallacy is not stating that it is POSSIBLE for something to happen. The fallacy is stating that it is inevitable, or even more likely, because of the 90-boost. One simply does not follow to the other. The trivialization of old content is a fundamental core principle of WoW's design. This is 100% in line with that principle. It isn't a change in direction whatsoever.

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    If I didn't buy Mists, you would have an advantage over me, and quite a large one. Why is that OK?
    Firstly, purchasing of the expansion falls under Pay to Play.

    Second, it IS more likely that more will one because as time goes on there has been progressively more added to the store. Selling past tier heroic is also 100% on that line but buying 550 gear wouldn't be too accepted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    No, because that trivializes CURRENT content. That's the part everyone seems to be having trouble getting their heads around here. The game is about current content. That's what the game is built on. Every inch of WoW's design is about that. Forcing people to level through old content has always been dramatically out of sync with the rest of the design of the game. When Cataclysm used piles of resources on fixing old content, it's pretty obvious how much of a mistake it was, because it was so fundamentally at odds with the rest of the game.
    How does heroic tot gear trivialize current content? It just lets you get started easier.

  8. #348
    If I didn't buy Mists, you would have an advantage over me, and quite a large one. Why is that OK?
    You really ask that? Really? Because Mists doesn't give me insta 90, i still have to work my way to 90. Unlike P2W insta-90, which is effortless. Duuuuuuuuh.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Orly View Post
    You really ask that? Really? Because Mists doesn't give me insta 90, i still have to work my way to 90. Unlike P2W insta-90, which is effortless. Duuuuuuuuh.
    If I am playing in Cataclysm without mists, I need to grind through all these raids to get gear. You get to do a couple of quests and outgear me in an hour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Firstly, purchasing of the expansion falls under Pay to Play.
    You can attribute special titles to things however you want. I didn't ask you to define things. I asked you what the difference was. Defining things as different is a fun game, but it doesn't demonstrate an actual difference.

    Second, it IS more likely that more will one because as time goes on there has been progressively more added to the store. Selling past tier heroic is also 100% on that line but buying 550 gear wouldn't be too accepted.
    No, it doesn't. That's the slippery slope fallacy, by definition.

    How does heroic tot gear trivialize current content? It just lets you get started easier.
    Because the current expansion is the current content. Blizzard DOES add basically trivial ways to get geared up to the current tier with every new patch. They always take what used to take months of running a raid and turn it into a couple of hours getting the gear some other way. There is no logical, reasonable way to do this with leveling except to undercut it completely, especially for new players.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    Correct - it requires SOME knowledge of the class. It requires the person play it for a few days (or weeks or what ever).
    Blizzard stated that the 'insta-90' won't be something like "click yes to be leveled up to 90", then DING you're 90. No, the player who uses the 'insta-90' will be transported to an instance where, much like the DK starter zone, albeit shorter, will teach the player the basics of his/her class. Won't really be any different than if he/she spends days, or weeks, to get from level 1 to 90.

    Besides, he still has the levels 90 to 100 to learn how to do dungeons properly. When he reaches 100, he'll be just as knowledgeable as a new player that level his/her character from 1 to 100 the 'old-fashioned way'.

  11. #351
    High Overlord Soth's Avatar
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    I don't have a problem with the free boost to 90. My only problem with the option to pay for another boost is that, one day, I'll get face raped by a shaman and decide that I NEED to be one myself. Then it's "Oh, I can spend time leveling it or...I can pay $x and just be 90."


    ...Then a week later I need to be a paladin.
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  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Soth View Post
    I don't have a problem with the free boost to 90. My only problem with the option to pay for another boost is that, one day, I'll get face raped by a shaman and decide that I NEED to be one myself. Then it's "Oh, I can spend time leveling it or...I can pay $x and just be 90."


    ...Then a week later I need to be a paladin.
    That sounds like a personal problem.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If I am playing in Cataclysm without mists, I need to grind through all these raids to get gear. You get to do a couple of quests and outgear me in an hour.
    So we both make an effort to improve our characters. How is this P2W again?

    You can attribute special titles to things however you want. I didn't ask you to define things. I asked you what the difference was. Defining things as different is a fun game, but it doesn't demonstrate an actual difference.
    He just told you. Expansions are P2P, you don't buy expansion, you can't play a certain part of the game. You say buying an expansion is P2W? What if i buy an expansion and I stopped my sub 2 months ago and didnt renew it even after buying said expansion. What advantage do I have over you in that situation?

    Because the current expansion is the current content. Blizzard DOES add basically trivial ways to get geared up to the current tier with every new patch. They always take what used to take months of running a raid and turn it into a couple of hours getting the gear some other way. There is no logical, reasonable way to do this with leveling except to undercut it completely, especially for new players.
    It might come as a surprise for you, but current content matters only to those at max level. Also as a surprise, not everyone is max level, hence...leveling matters to some. Get out of your imaginary world where everyone is 90 and raiding.

    Also, new players need only ONE lv 90, which they get for FREE. Anything other than that is P2W. Deal with it.

  14. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    Correct - it requires SOME knowledge of the class. It requires the person play it for a few days (or weeks or what ever).
    I literally hit 90 on a hunter just spamming Arcane Shot, Steady/Cobra Shot, and Kill Command. I learned more about Hunter in two hours of gameplay than I did for 90 levels, and the same held true back when I joined the game in late Vanilla and leveled a prot warrior, or when I leveled my paladin in Wrath, or my DK in Wrath, or my rogue in Cata, or my monk in MoP.

    Awesome sig by Elyaan is awesome.

  15. #355
    One free level 90 is fine for me. The additional ones for a cost are the problem because I think most people assumed that this would just be a free option at some point in the games life and it turns out it's just going to be a cash grab like realm transfers and faction changes were. It also gives them no incentive to improve the leveling experience.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Orly View Post
    So we both make an effort to improve our characters. How is this P2W again?

    He just told you. Expansions are P2P, you don't buy expansion, you can't play a certain part of the game. You say buying an expansion is P2W? What if i buy an expansion and I stopped my sub 2 months ago and didnt renew it even after buying said expansion. What advantage do I have over you in that situation?
    The boosted level 90 has to play through a special scenario before he can go play in the normal world. This scenario essentially replaces the 1-90 content. If the fact that you need to play for an hour to outgear me in mists doesn't trivialize my cata raiding, then playing that scenario shouldnt triviliaze your 1-90 leveling, since you just admitted that it's not about how much time it takes, just that it takes SOMETHING.

    It might come as a surprise for you, but current content matters only to those at max level. Also as a surprise, not everyone is max level, hence...leveling matters to some. Get out of your imaginary world where everyone is 90 and raiding.
    People who like leveling can still level. That isn't being taken away from them. The whole damn PROBLEM in the first place is that a lot of people don't want to level through old content. That's what this is supposed to fix. You can't cite the problem as a reason not to have a solution.

    Also, new players need only ONE lv 90, which they get for FREE. Anything other than that is P2W. Deal with it.
    And there is no reasonable way to stop people from buying multiple copies for multiple 90 boosts. It doesn't make sense to have that possible and not simply support it directly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frymastermeat View Post
    One free level 90 is fine for me. The additional ones for a cost are the problem because I think most people assumed that this would just be a free option at some point in the games life and it turns out it's just going to be a cash grab like realm transfers and faction changes were. It also gives them no incentive to improve the leveling experience.
    Here is the improvement to the leveling experience: Reduce it to only include the current expansion's leveling. That's what this does.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The boosted level 90 has to play through a special scenario before he can go play in the normal world. This scenario essentially replaces the 1-90 content. If the fact that you need to play for an hour to outgear me in mists doesn't trivialize my cata raiding, then playing that scenario shouldnt triviliaze your 1-90 leveling, since you just admitted that it's not about how much time it takes, just that it takes SOMETHING.
    Do you seriously compare the time it takes to level to 90, to a scenario or two? You're dense.

    And it's not about trivializing, it's about both of us spending 40min in game but you having an 80ish levels advantage over me. That's the problem.

    People who like leveling can still level. That isn't being taken away from them. The whole damn PROBLEM in the first place is that a lot of people don't want to level through old content. That's what this is supposed to fix. You can't cite the problem as a reason not to have a solution.
    That doesn't change the fact that you give real money to have a head start over people that don't. That's the definition of P2W, btw. And if you want an alt that badly but you're too tired of leveling, then you don't want it bad enough or you should consider trying another game instead.

    And there is no reasonable way to stop people from buying multiple copies for multiple 90 boosts. It doesn't make sense to have that possible and not simply support it directly.
    Yes there is. Each account limited to only ONE lv 90 boost. See? Took me 2 min to find a reasonable way to stop people from buying multiple copies.

    Here is the improvement to the leveling experience: Reduce it to only include the current expansion's leveling. That's what this does.
    Why not abolish levels altogether so noobs can just pick the game and start pounding you right away?
    Last edited by Orly; 2014-01-20 at 06:03 PM.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Orly View Post
    Do you seriously compare the time it takes to level to 90, to a scenario or two? You're dense.
    Do you seriously compare raiding week after week for gear to questing for an hour in the next expansion?

    That doesn't change the fact that you give real money to have a head start over people that don't. That's the definition of P2W, btw. And if you want an alt that badly but you're too tired of leveling, then you don't want it bad enough or you should consider trying another game instead.
    No, that isn't the definition of pay to win. When you start arguing that people need to want their alt bad enough to trudge through boring old content in order to play it, you've demonstrated the problem, not refuted it.

    Yes there is. Each account limited to only ONE lv 90 boost. See? Took me 2 min to find a reasonable way to stop people from buying multiple copies.
    You can have multiple WoW accounts, and depending on the circumstances you can transfer characters between them. Try again.

    Why not abolish levels altogether so noobs can just pick the game and start pounding you right away?
    Games exist to be fun, not to give you personally a smug sense of superiority over other people. If you like leveling because it STOPS other people from playing, then I don't think you and Blizzard are on the same page. This may be a shocker, but Blizzard wants people to play their game. They don't want people to quit by throwing, artificial, boring obstacles in their way so that Orly can feel like a big man.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Erathus View Post
    Guys lets be honest here. With the release of WoD the maximum level is going to reach the number 100. Starting from level 1 to reach that roof is a bit overwhelming and discouraging for most and especially for the newcomers. This was bound to happen sooner or later.

    I currently have all classes level 90, except a priest, and i was trying to start anew on an Alliance PvP server. I could certainly use that option if i could to make things easier as far as time investment is concerned.

    For players like me, who play since 2007, leveling has nothing to offer, at all.
    I play since 2005 and holy shit I would do anything to skip leveling. Such a bloody useless part of the game at this time. You don't learn jack shit and people that want to play this game properly will play this game properly no matter if they start at level 1 or 90.

    It takes under a day to get 90 now... it will probably take 10-12 hours to get 1-90 in WoD. I'd rather suck dick for nickles for 12 hours and pay for a 90 and not go through the pain of leveling the 30th character.

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    I've experienced 'ebay' characters (when they used to be easy to get) - people could do the basic 3 or 4 things, but had no idea how to dispel, cc, shield or any of the other things you learn ONE at a time as you level up from 1.
    Isn't there some kind of tutorial in the works? IMO they should make you pass a proving grounds-type test, even like bronze or silver difficulty (which are trivial to do on live). That way you aren't a complete mouth-breather when you get out into the world.

    As long as something like that is in place, I frankly don't have any issues with this. It will have some kind of effect on low level dungeons/BGs, but I don't really care too much about those TBH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichifails View Post

    It takes under a day to get 90 now...
    Really? Even on my monk I have played about 1 day, almost all of that with the 1 hour exp bonus, and i'm only level 66. I think this is a bit of hyperbole. It takes about 12 or 15 hours to get from 85-90 doesn't it? That's 2-3 hours per level. I need to l2level apparently.

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