SoO Nerfs, infuriating.

[Daltin]

"Stacking debuff" is raidwide, not boss specific. They don't want to nerf Garrosh or first 10 bosses. So no, it's not a solution.

Also, in case of Paragons, it could affect things they don't want to change - as it is now, it's targetted at Hisek Multishotting people for 400k+ during Fiery Edges. Not nerfing Parasites, Whirling, Amber, Rapid Fire, Catalysts, tank damage, Reave, Death from Above, or their hitpoints.

We've always just killed Hisek 2nd. We've never had to deal with damage spikes during Fiery Edge, but I can see how doing it that way would be problematic.

[Libretto]

Nobody wants "stacking debuff you can turn off" a-la dragon soul and ICC. Aside from it being lazy design, the constant argument of "well you can turn it off if you want the challenge" doesn't take into account the social factor of the game. The same people who say "you can turn the buff off if you want to be hardcore" are the people who also say "I don't believe you" if you try tell them you did so since the game offers no method of proving it.

[Berianther]

I'm quite surprised they didn't touch H garrosh on 10 mans. It becomes obvious after you've killed both.

[Kagecamia]

Sadly on Illidan, if you don't have the Garrosh kill achievement on normal, you are literally worthless. You don't get invited to pugs, you can't raid, you are literally stuck with everyone else that is trying to progress. I want to progress and get better but I simply can't because every new guild I join just breaks up after the core people don't show up to raid. If the nerfs encourage more people to do regulars and heroics and make it easier for the people who got a late start, then that is fine.

At this point in the tier it's not so much I am worried about the nerfs. I am mostly infuriated and pissed off about the lack of accountability with people.

But everyone who is upset about these roic nerfs, just think: it could have been a worse nerf. And be very thankful you at least got your progression started. Alot of people are struggling to get it started this late in the expac.

"Smile. It could be worse"-Eeyore

[Libertarian]

Does anyone find it hilarious that:

They nerfed Paragons multiple times:
amber flying at the same rate no matter position
Canned Heat no longer stealing abilities from players
Buffs won't bug out anymore like they would before
Skeer's BOP bloodletting was fixed
AIM can now be ignored for a vast amount of classes
Injection will no longer spawn parasites if Rikkal is dead and the buff runs out, and the debuff will stack - 75% sure it wasn't stacking when we started progress, but can be wrong here
Whirling has been made far more visible
Korven's bash has been changed
Scorpion's can't be targetted by the amber anymore.
Melee damage smoothed out from the Paragons.
Riposte and Blood Shield triggers from them.
Sonic resonance was made a little more forgiving.


that's just off the top of my head. Heck, going through the old hotfix notes, here's a few for siegecrafter:



Other bits include:
The malice change on Garrosh (including not being able to target iron-star kiters).
The tank-abuse on spoils being fixed (using multiple tanks with the blade-buff that made them do incredible DPS).
Superheated and Shockwave on Siegecrafter not hitting people while they're being pulled off the belt on siegecrafter.
The entire norushen encounter.
And probably alot more.

Were some of these bugs that needed fixing to provide us with enjoyable encounters? Absolutely.
Did fixing a heck of a lot of them end up making the encounters easier than their "untouched" counterparts? Yes, yes they did.
Yet it's now that they are going to slightly reduce some of the spiky AOE damage (which is really annoying at times with bad RNG - multishot with the superpowered Hisek during Fiery lines can be pretty devastating) people speak up?





Also, out of curiosity, does anyone happen to have links to some of those 4 healing paragon logs (on progress, not nowadays when they've been on farm for months and months, obviously)? I guess the later part of the fight (lyokuk and onwards) aren't really intense at all, but 4 healers with parasites, AIM and multishots going around... Man, that'd be brutal. Very interested in seeing some logs of it. I also highly doubt you'd be able to 2 heal Paragons nowadays.

You forgot the most important change to garrosh: sac dagger

[Deleted]

I should start by saying that I've never liked nerfs. (Unless it fixes broken bosses).

However, when I complained in the past, nerfs never actually affected me because I didn't raid Heroic. Now, SoO is my first Heroic tier, and I personally see it as a real goal of mine to beat Garrosh, after having tried really hard to work my way from normals at the start of MoP, to being an officer in Heroic guild. I play this game for challenge.These bosses are not impossible. My guild has almost gotten Thok down, in fact I'm almost certain he'll be going down on sunday. If he doesn't, for whatever reason, I'd rather never kill him than kill him with the help of a nerf. (We're 10 man, and got him really low, with 3 melee so it's obviously possible). I've partly helped build a guild and a raid team and now when we kill Garrosh I must, through no choice of my own, say 'Yeah we killed Garrosh, but only after the nerfs.' Could we have done it without the nerfs? Yes. This is a slap in the face.

Edit: we're only got 5 core players. This has little to do with skill and more to do with it being a new guild. Yet we've made it to 10, and probably 11, but will be forced to kill 12 with nerfs.

Edit: How about no nerfs at all? Let people get better/let people get gear (the natural nerf). Nerfs are NOT needed. If you're not good enough to get to garrosh before WoD, then that's fine. But there's plenty of time till WoD. So why nerf?

If you're still stuck at Thok this late in to the tier, you obviously need the nerfs in order to progress.

I play in a 3 day / 9 hr a week guild and I'm currently 13/14 hc since early December, I welcome these nerfs whole heatedly, especially the Paragon nerfs, absolute garbage fight, although these nerfs won't do much because they aren't what makes the fight hard. Siegecrafter won't be an instant wipe if someone from the belt group dies now which is what made it so unforgiving, wasn't particularly hard though. Thok didn't need nerfs, ez boss.

[KaPe]

We've always just killed Hisek 2nd. We've never had to deal with damage spikes during Fiery Edge, but I can see how doing it that way would be problematic.

Sounds like 10 man, never heard of that being done in 25 outside of HoP abuse. Between the Parasites and Bloods, he's not dying second.

[Luxeley]

This is nothing new to WOW. Blizzard has been nerfing raids since early WOTLK and they will continue to do so in Warlords and beyond. I don't agree with their strategy, matter of fact I think it's really bad for the game as a whole. What Blizzard could do instead is educate their player base on how to play a particular class or at least point people in the right direction. There are a lot of WOW you tubers who indirectly promote the game. How about Blizzard pointing players to these You Tubers to learn how to master their class and dps etc etc etc.

[Daltin]

Sounds like 10 man, never heard of that being done in 25 outside of HoP abuse. Between the Parasites and Bloods, he's not dying second.

You're free to watch our Heroic 25 Paragons video with Hisek 2nd, after the HoP fix, if you'd like. Feel free to look us up.

[KaPe]

You're free to watch our Heroic 25 Paragons video with Hisek 2nd, after the HoP fix, if you'd like. Feel free to look us up.

Well that's certainly unique.

Either way, this change won't affect the fight in major way. There's only one, maybe two Edges which overlap with Hisek. Depending on cooldowns used and people targeted, this change might go largely unnoticed.

[Obsession]

This could all be resolved with the suggestion I made.

here us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/11224112474?page=10#189
and here us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/11224112474?page=10#191

Give players a choice -> Stacking Debuff

There is no choice in an "optional" stacking debuff. When you go to wowprogress.com and are looking at progression, you can't differentiate between a 0% and 35% nerf, you just see a date. There is no choice, just an illusion of choice.

Additionally, I've never heard of a guild disabling those stacking features for progression. Never, it doesn't happen.

[Ehrenpanzer]

http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/eu/silvermoon
http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/eu/ravencrest

this is the majority.

yes....those 2 servers are total and complete representation of the majority of this game...everyone everywhere is in the exact same boat as you and your 5man raiding roster, you personally are the center of all wow balancing and raid encounter design.

....you crawl into your butthurt little corner and accept that nobody cares about your guild that cant retain raiders and are happy to see some tuning to bosses

[Daltin]

Well that's certainly unique.

Either way, this change won't affect the fight in major way. There's only one, maybe two Edges which overlap with Hisek. Depending on cooldowns used and people targeted, this change might go largely unnoticed.

I think we opted to do it that way to purposely avoid that combination of MS and FE. I'm not sure of the reasoning, but I do remember the debate we had about doing Hisek 2nd or 4th. The drawback we had was beating the 9th mutate, which wasn't happening unless we had the optimal DPS in. It's not a big deal now, sometimes we have to hold for the 8th to make sure all the parasites are gone and out of the way, but before we were struggling to beat that 9th one.

[Dracodraco]

You forgot the most important change to garrosh: sac dagger

I didn't. I included Malice changes to garrosh.

[JV Chequer]

Looks like they just want to let 10H the same difficulty as 25H

[Dethh]

I should start by saying that I've never liked nerfs. (Unless it fixes broken bosses).

However, when I complained in the past, nerfs never actually affected me because I didn't raid Heroic. Now, SoO is my first Heroic tier, and I personally see it as a real goal of mine to beat Garrosh, after having tried really hard to work my way from normals at the start of MoP, to being an officer in Heroic guild. I play this game for challenge.These bosses are not impossible. My guild has almost gotten Thok down, in fact I'm almost certain he'll be going down on sunday. If he doesn't, for whatever reason, I'd rather never kill him than kill him with the help of a nerf. (We're 10 man, and got him really low, with 3 melee so it's obviously possible). I've partly helped build a guild and a raid team and now when we kill Garrosh I must, through no choice of my own, say 'Yeah we killed Garrosh, but only after the nerfs.' Could we have done it without the nerfs? Yes. This is a slap in the face.

Edit: we're only got 5 core players. This has little to do with skill and more to do with it being a new guild. Yet we've made it to 10, and probably 11, but will be forced to kill 12 with nerfs.

Edit: How about no nerfs at all? Let people get better/let people get gear (the natural nerf). Nerfs are NOT needed. If you're not good enough to get to garrosh before WoD, then that's fine. But there's plenty of time till WoD. So why nerf?

Gear upgrades are a nerf, so you have been fighting nerfed bosses every week. Gear level upgrades are the new form of the zone wide nerfs they used to do in the past.

[Obsession]

http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/eu/silvermoon
http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/eu/ravencrest

THIS IS THE MAJORITY.

That's what he said, the majority of people aren't actually good. Additionally, who are you to speak for them? Do you know whether or not they want this change to go through? How can you use them as an example in any way.

[Deleted]

Even empress heroic, or will of the emperor were harder than garrosh, if anything the siegecrafter should have been warchief boss rofl.

Nop, those bosses died in far less attempts.

[KaPe]

Gear upgrades are a nerf, so you have been fighting nerfed bosses every week. Gear level upgrades are the new form of the zone wide nerfs they used to do in the past.

Not really? Unless you're one of top 20 guilds, you will have very little upgrades left by the time you get to the final three.

[Deleted]

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