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  1. #641
    IMO the nerfs were not that big(besides Thok)... if you are still progressing on Siege or Paragons... you still going to do the same thing you were doing...Just now you can avoid random Deaths from BS RNG...

  2. #642
    ITT: "I did it first! Neener neener neener!" "I was cool before you were cool! Neener neener neener!".

    TL;DR: Children.

    Infracted; Post constructively.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2014-01-29 at 06:22 AM.

  3. #643
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketsauce View Post
    ITT: "I did it first! Neener neener neener!" "I was cool before you were cool! Neener neener neener!".

    TL;DR: Children.
    I'm sure "we *totally* would have killed it before the nerfs, but we were 'building our core', screw you Blizzard" is far more mature.

  4. #644
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    These nerfs were needed imo. I'm coming from a 12/14 heroic perspective, with a Klaxxii kill quite close. We managed our Blackfuse kill before these nerfs, and I'll definitly say, repeat kills have about the same level of difficulty. If you're still progressing on Blackfuse, mines going boom, standing in fire, poor dps, poor tanking, poor positioning, and derped sawblades will absolutly still wipe your raid. For those thinking they are going to be progressing on a stripped down version of these two bosses your wrong. Yes, they are noticeable "easier", but only from a point of view that you won't have quite as many wipes because three of your raiders took one tick of superheated, during an overload, during a magnet, while a melee derped a detonate. We started progression on Klaxxii before the changes, and are working on finishing it now. The ONLY thing that changed was we aren't getting nearly as many Multishot + Fiery Edge + whatever the hell else combo deaths that are literally just globals that you have no control over.

    Be happy these weren't DS type nerfs, which just gutted the content. You're still going to see a very very close representation of the bosses that were killed by faster progressed guilds. You've just been given a little nudge by blizzard, which is not a bad thing. Honestly if you're not in the top 10, the only race you are running in is the race in your own mind. Be happy you're getting to see content a vast majority of the player base could only dream of seeing.
    Sinthetik, BM Monk. GM, Exiled From Hell, US Premiere Daytime 25 man. 14/14 heroic. US #117

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinthetik View Post
    These nerfs were needed imo. I'm coming from a 12/14 heroic perspective, with a Klaxxii kill quite close. We managed our Blackfuse kill before these nerfs, and I'll definitly say, repeat kills have about the same level of difficulty. If you're still progressing on Blackfuse, mines going boom, standing in fire, poor dps, poor tanking, poor positioning, and derped sawblades will absolutly still wipe your raid. For those thinking they are going to be progressing on a stripped down version of these two bosses your wrong. Yes, they are noticeable "easier", but only from a point of view that you won't have quite as many wipes because three of your raiders took one tick of superheated, during an overload, during a magnet, while a melee derped a detonate. We started progression on Klaxxii before the changes, and are working on finishing it now. The ONLY thing that changed was we aren't getting nearly as many Multishot + Fiery Edge + whatever the hell else combo deaths that are literally just globals that you have no control over.

    Be happy these weren't DS type nerfs, which just gutted the content. You're still going to see a very very close representation of the bosses that were killed by faster progressed guilds. You've just been given a little nudge by blizzard, which is not a bad thing. Honestly if you're not in the top 10, the only race you are running in is the race in your own mind. Be happy you're getting to see content a vast majority of the player base could only dream of seeing.
    I agree with most of this with one thing. The nerf to the belt health on siege didn't need to be anywhere nearly as severe as it was. 20% is HUGE. We killed siege pre nerf in 139 pulls, and I'd say about the last ~50 pulls came down to a few things wiping us, belt people dying due to being forced through fire, belt mechanics living at sub 300k.

    A 5% nerf to the health of the belt mechanics would have been better. 20% is just insane imo.

    Also 10m paragons is a joke now. 39 pulls over one raid night and the fight was dead for us. Fight would have been noticeably harder with fire lines and multi shot hitting harder (although wiping to random uncontrollable raid damage is dumb).

  6. #646
    You're probably looking at belt from the perspective of well geared group that had little issues with doing >6 mln per person. Certain classes/those who didn't get their trinkets/weapons yet had more problems with that and needed that extra edges. They will most likely still need 2 people in 10 man (yes, I know fully geared players with all cooldowns could solo some of them, we aren't talking about those). 25 man on deep farm will drop one for sure, but for learning stage, you'd use one person as "backup" anyway.

    It's easier, but not that much easier outside farm. Belt team will still have to learn their part during progress, you'll still have to learn the timers and proper placement.

    And I believe Paragons 10 man were already "a joke"? Never seen them in that format, but it seems to be a fairly popular opinion. Meanwhile, Hisek + Iyokuk was highly annoying in 25, with fire lines *everywhere* and inability to spread properly without screwing yourself during Aim. If Hisek was being a dick and decided to Multishot someone without defensive cooldowns for >400k, they'd die - seeing how it's somewhat "difficult" to react to such spikes if there's (12? 15?) people taking a lot of damage at the same time.

    Rest of the fight is completely unchanged and will keep wiping people anyway. This was simply highly irritating but not *that* important part.

    Edit: I wonder how many tears will flow once Blizzard nerfs Garrosh in 10 man. They already mentioned his hitpoints at some point, so it will probably happen in several weeks. Some time later they might turn to 25 version. And it will *still* be a huge surprise and another thread made by someone who *nearly* killed him but was actually 4 bosses behind.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2014-01-29 at 11:15 AM.

  7. #647
    Edit: I wonder how many tears will flow once Blizzard nerfs Garrosh in 10 man. They already mentioned his hitpoints at some point, so it will probably happen in several weeks. Some time later they might turn to 25 version. And it will *still* be a huge surprise and another thread made by someone who *nearly* killed him but was actually 4 bosses behind.
    Source? cause H garrosh 10 is seriously overtuned compared to 25man loot pinata mode, blizzard shoulda adjusted his hp by 10% a long time ago if they looked at the discrepancy.

  8. #648
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    Source? cause H garrosh 10 is seriously overtuned compared to 25man loot pinata mode, blizzard shoulda adjusted his hp by 10% a long time ago if they looked at the discrepancy.
    https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/statu...98270315761664

    Nothing definite, but he does mention that 10 man hitpoints would be the first thing to nerf if they touch him at all.

  9. #649
    Even a 1% adjustment to health pools would be massive on Garrosh 10H.

    The fight is basically a series of harsh DPS checks, with small coordination checks here and there: Can you kill the siege engineer with 1 dps? Can you push before the 3rd wave of adds spawn in P1? Can you clean up temple (15 adds x 3.6m health) in <25 sec? Can you get Garrosh below 30% in the first half of P2? (If not, you have to do Terrace, enjoy your wipes. Otherwise you can afk 60s and regen all your trinket procs) Can you push Garrosh before the final empowered whirling of the second half of P2? Can you push Garrosh again before the synchronized desecrate/MC ~85 seconds after P3 starts?

    If you fail any of these checks, it's probably a wipe, and certainly a LOT harder to survive reliably.

    Progress on this fight has come in the form of optimizing dps without compromising survivability. Giving people even 6m free damage in Phase 2 would make a huge difference in how hard it is to make P3, and an even bigger difference on how hard it is to make P4 before everything goes to hell after Emp Whirling 2.

  10. #650
    Quote Originally Posted by Jurik View Post
    The fight is basically a series of harsh DPS checks, with small coordination checks here and there: Can you kill the siege engineer with 1 dps? Can you push before the 3rd wave of adds spawn in P1? Can you clean up temple (15 adds x 3.6m health) in <25 sec? Can you get Garrosh below 30% in the first half of P2? (If not, you have to do Terrace, enjoy your wipes. Otherwise you can afk 60s and regen all your trinket procs) Can you push Garrosh before the final empowered whirling of the second half of P2? Can you push Garrosh again before the synchronized desecrate/MC ~85 seconds after P3 starts?

    If you fail any of these checks, it's probably a wipe, and certainly a LOT harder to survive reliably.
    Kinda sad that Garrosh is this lenient with the gear you have now. Having Jade Serpent last longer than 20 seconds used to be a No-No and 30% when Terrace starts? Our raid leader would have payed airplane tickets to France for out entire raid team so he could legally decapitate us if the boss was on 30%, he was not happy unless it was sub 20%, and we still did terrace.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #651
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Kinda sad that Garrosh is this lenient with the gear you have now. Having Jade Serpent last longer than 20 seconds used to be a No-No and 30% when Terrace starts? Our raid leader would have payed airplane tickets to France for out entire raid team so he could legally decapitate us if the boss was on 30%, he was not happy unless it was sub 20%, and we still did terrace.
    Please don't exaggerate.

  12. #652
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Kinda sad that Garrosh is this lenient with the gear you have now. Having Jade Serpent last longer than 20 seconds used to be a No-No and 30% when Terrace starts? Our raid leader would have payed airplane tickets to France for out entire raid team so he could legally decapitate us if the boss was on 30%, he was not happy unless it was sub 20%, and we still did terrace.

    Sub 20% before terrace? I've never heard of October/November kills getting that low. That's unreal DPS if its true. Kudos.

  13. #653
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoriesLA View Post
    Sub 20% before terrace? I've never heard of October/November kills getting that low. That's unreal DPS if its true. Kudos.
    We certainly didn't have anything near 20% on our first kill. Maybe 30% if we were lucky. And this was an early November kill.

  14. #654
    Nerfs shouldn't happen imo just because people complain about stuff being to hard they shouldn't make it easier because it makes it boring for the dedicated that are good

  15. #655
    Quote Originally Posted by zodjsp View Post
    Nerfs shouldn't happen imo just because people complain about stuff being to hard they shouldn't make it easier because it makes it boring for the dedicated that are good
    "The dedicated that are good" have already finished that content. Those slightly less dedicated that are actually affected by the nerfs had plenty of time to do it. Maybe they would have done it if they only had more time. Maybe they wouldn't. And then there's those who haven't even seen the fights, but complain the loudest.

  16. #656
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    @Britishbubba, after reading what you wrote I'd have to concede that point. While the other Blackfuse nerfs were fine, the belt hp nerf was definitly a bit over the top. I can definitly remember my belt team commenting how it was a joke now compared when we got our kill. We literally dropped two people from each belt team. They probably could have gone with at most a 10% nerf, and even that may have been too much. The majority of our belt wipes were due to being short sub 2% damage on the weapon.
    Sinthetik, BM Monk. GM, Exiled From Hell, US Premiere Daytime 25 man. 14/14 heroic. US #117

  17. #657
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarithus View Post
    I should start by saying that I've never liked nerfs. (Unless it fixes broken bosses).

    However, when I complained in the past, nerfs never actually affected me because I didn't raid Heroic. Now, SoO is my first Heroic tier, and I personally see it as a real goal of mine to beat Garrosh, after having tried really hard to work my way from normals at the start of MoP, to being an officer in Heroic guild. I play this game for challenge.These bosses are not impossible. My guild has almost gotten Thok down, in fact I'm almost certain he'll be going down on sunday. If he doesn't, for whatever reason, I'd rather never kill him than kill him with the help of a nerf. (We're 10 man, and got him really low, with 3 melee so it's obviously possible). I've partly helped build a guild and a raid team and now when we kill Garrosh I must, through no choice of my own, say 'Yeah we killed Garrosh, but only after the nerfs.' Could we have done it without the nerfs? Yes. This is a slap in the face.

    Edit: we're only got 5 core players. This has little to do with skill and more to do with it being a new guild. Yet we've made it to 10, and probably 11, but will be forced to kill 12 with nerfs.

    Edit: How about no nerfs at all? Let people get better/let people get gear (the natural nerf). Nerfs are NOT needed. If you're not good enough to get to garrosh before WoD, then that's fine. But there's plenty of time till WoD. So why nerf?
    All I can say about this is, if you want to be a boss and kill things without nerfs, then play better and kill them before the nerfs.

    If you think you're facing the same challenge today as you would've had you cleared SoO HM in week 1 you're very deluded. Every week you raid, you are getting more gear and making your next raid easier. Raids nerf themselves.

    Nerfs are put in place so struggling guilds can get over hurdles in their progression. You are one of those guilds. You weren't quite good enough, because you haven't finished yet. Suck it up.

    Do raids at your own pace (potentially this will mean post-nerfs) or get better and/or join a serious progression guild and kill them when they're the most difficult, ie as few weeks after release as possible. Those are your options.
    Last edited by Mormolyce; 2014-01-31 at 03:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  18. #658
    Quote Originally Posted by TheoriesLA View Post
    Sub 20% before terrace? I've never heard of October/November kills getting that low. That's unreal DPS if its true. Kudos.
    Most of our terraces was around the 20-23% mark. But our record was to 16 or 17% I believe, getting it to 19% happened probably 50% of the times towards the end of progression. The goal was always to see those 20% execute spells light up before entering terrace.

    I believe we were the 4th lowest guild in terms of item level on Garrosh (568), but our dps was insane and I think that a lot of the sub 570 ilvl kills pushed it below 20.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurik View Post
    Please don't exaggerate.
    How is that an exaggeration? Check the first 20 kills and see how many of them had Garrosh at 30% and skipped terrace.
    Getting below 20% was our raid leader being a strong leader, realizing our potential and pushing the team to its limits, but I can assure you that almot every team used to aim for 25% atleast.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2014-01-31 at 06:39 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Most of our terraces was around the 20-23% mark. But our record was to 16 or 17% I believe, getting it to 19% happened probably 50% of the times towards the end of progression. The goal was always to see those 20% execute spells light up before entering terrace.
    Lots of videos on YT with mid-november or early december kills contradict your account. Common percentages are in the mid-to-upper 20% for terrace when not one-healing. Without disc priest I would venture to say cracking 25% would be pretty daunting back then. JT times are almost universally between 20 and 24 seconds--19 seconds or below is exceedingly rare. Going below 20 seconds can actually be counterproductive because the amount of uptime on Garrosh isn't significantly increased, while the healing mana burn rate during Annhilate is the highest point of pretty much any during the fight: raid is taking about 900k dps during this time.

    In any case, ask yourself how your post is relevant at all, besides fluffing your own ego with how much better you are than everyone else. It doesn't have any bearing on the discussion; in 10H, the DPS thresholds you have to make without taking extreme measures to survive are as I said: <3 waves of melee adds, <25 seconds in JT, <30% in the first half of P2 for afk-terrace strategy, <3 empowered whirlings before P3, and then push to p4 before everything goes to shit in p3.

    In summary: nobody cares that your guild did better while wearing cataclysm blues and using heirloom trinkets.
    Last edited by Jurik; 2014-01-31 at 09:57 AM.

  20. #660
    If you haven't downed Garrosh heroic already then it's obvious you need these nerfs, and any future ones, to do it.

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