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  1. #601
    I am Murloc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanthalas View Post
    So your raid leaders were basicly right.
    I dunno, 10 weeks worth of gear is a *lot*. Especially since Garrosh is almost pure gearcheck and in that time they'd almost certainly get several warforged weapons. Dying to random crap usually happens on Paragons, Gary is more of a brute force encounter.

  2. #602
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyand1337 View Post
    Since we extended our lockout about 10 times now, we are still progressing garrosh in the very same gear that we had when we reached heroic paragons in november Not always the best idea.
    Luckily, after nearly 300 wipes on garrosh, our weaker players also begin to do better dps and we are not too far away from a kill anymore.
    Sounds like your raid leader made the right call to me.

    If you extended about 10 times, that is atleast 40 hours of farm, I do not know how fast you clear 13/14, probably closer to 60 hours but lets say 40 hours.
    40 hours is easily 200 progress pulls on Garrosh if you have a decent pace. The extra gear from those resets would not have lowered the amount of pulls you needed for garrosh to below 150, which is 350-200 which is what you are probably looking at if you are close to a kill.

    So your raid leaders definately made the right call if what you said is true.

  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    I dunno, 10 weeks worth of gear is a *lot*. Especially since Garrosh is almost pure gearcheck and in that time they'd almost certainly get several warforged weapons. Dying to random crap usually happens on Paragons, Gary is more of a brute force encounter.
    Not sure about the amount of WF weapons, we got 2 weapons during whole time, 1 being offspec 2hander from a coin roll.
    Extending CD can make miracles, especially when you lack 1 day to clear everything till progress boss on a later stages and your raiding days count is 4 or less.

  4. #604
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Sounds like your raid leader made the right call to me.

    If you extended about 10 times, that is atleast 40 hours of farm, I do not know how fast you clear 13/14, probably closer to 60 hours but lets say 40 hours.
    40 hours is easily 200 progress pulls on Garrosh if you have a decent pace. The extra gear from those resets would not have lowered the amount of pulls you needed for garrosh to below 150, which is 350-200 which is what you are probably looking at if you are close to a kill.

    So your raid leaders definately made the right call if what you said is true.
    I'd bet that we were better off if we had not extended that lockout, at least in terms of garrosh. We had several weeks of paragons progress with a total of about 450 wipes. I totally agree that gear wouldn't have helped us on that boss. Though you could feel a great lack of motivation after the second week.

    On garrosh it's a different story. We have several extremely good players, players who adapt to new encounters very fast and usually manage to get top world rankings on WoL on a regular basis. I am quite sure that those better players could have beaten the crap out of garrosh in phase 3 if they wouldn't have to use things like trinkets from flex. Instead we had several weeks of wiping to the end of P3, waiting for the weaker ones to finally catch up and deliver constant dps on garrosh in P2 and 3.

  5. #605
    Another world revolves around me post.

    You took too long, nerfs always happen, they are usually bigger.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyand1337 View Post
    Extending raid-lockout was the dumb thing my raid leaders decided to do again for SoO. It started during heroic paragons progress and Garrosh is still alive, we've been extending the same raid-lockout since mid november
    The dumb argument was, that we weren't wiping because of the lack of gear, but because people are dying to stupid things... always comparing us to cutting edge kills who obviously managed to kill the bosses with far less gear. Sadly we aren't method or blood legion and do have quite a bunch of people who need hundreds of pulls on a boss to optimize their survivability and damage-output on that particular boss.

    Since we extended our lockout about 10 times now, we are still progressing garrosh in the very same gear that we had when we reached heroic paragons in november Not always the best idea.
    Luckily, after nearly 300 wipes on garrosh, our weaker players also begin to do better dps and we are not too far away from a kill anymore.
    Well ... just my two cents, but I think y'all could have benefited from at least a couple of farm nights getting back to Garry, to fill out some gears -- but, more importantly, to give people a small reprieve.
    I am the one who knocks ... because I need your permission to enter.

  7. #607
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Liebchen View Post
    Well there has been quite some time to kill the bosses thats true but SoO is a really big instance also.
    Some guilds have good players, good tactics, etc. but only raid 3 times per week so you dont have enough time to kill all easier HC bosses in the first IDs, also you need over 1/3rd of your raidingtime to farm the bosses you already killed and another hour or two to kill the remaining nhc bosses. Especially in 10man you already have some bosses that are hard before hitting the Siegecrafter-Wall. Its not like Dark Shamans and Malkorok HC are insanely hard bosses, but while they are a joke on 25man they can be quite nasty on 10man. I'm also talking about farming them the next few weeks. Thok also is really hard on 10man prenerf, if you only have 3 raids per week and can cost you even 1-2 weeks.
    Then you hit the Siegecrafter Wall... most guilds still need something like >200 trys for him if you dont use some weird 1 Heal Tactic and outgear the boss. Again with 3 Raids per week you will be able to do something like 60-70 trys per week and it takes something like 4 weeks for a boss that isnt even the endboss.

    And then Garrosh... nc,.

    The guilds with good players and good tactics kill 11/14 Heroic in one night and maybe even more, after Siegecrafter and Klaxxi got nerfed. If you can't kill at least 10 bosses in one night, you aren't really among those "good guilds" imo.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    Well ... just my two cents, but I think y'all could have benefited from at least a couple of farm nights getting back to Garry, to fill out some gears -- but, more importantly, to give people a small reprieve.
    I agree with this. If you've been extending for 10 weeks and still don't have a kill, your raiders aren't playing optimally tbh. And we all know, that lack of skill can often be made up by more gear.

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanthalas View Post
    So many people stating H. Garrosh is hard, missing the point he's just a ridiculous dps check.

    And he is pretty binary in that:

    1. Third wave of adds in ph1 -> lol you'll never kill him
    2. 25+ seconds in first room -> lol you'll never kill him
    3. 2 empowered WW after 2 room -> you'll have a hard time
    4. not pushing him into ph4 before or during the second WW on ph3 -> you'll have a very hard time

    And the heroic only phase, a visit card of how kewl you are, being a complete pushover.

    Nerfing his HP by 5% will result in 2-3 raids needed to progress him from 0 to death.
    Your second point is the only one of these that's strictly true.

    1. I've never heard of the third wave of adds in p1 being an issue. During progression we sometimes beat them and sometimes didn't and it wasn't a concern either way.
    3. 2 empowered whirls before third phase was completely normal for guilds beating the fight early on. Beating that second whirl would actually have been unheard of.
    4. Likewise, guilds killing Garrosh early on were not even close to beating the second whirl in phase 3 either.

    I guess you could say beating those p2/p3 whirls makes the fight significantly easier, which is indeed what you said (sort of), but I still don't understand the claim about p1.
    Last edited by Aseyhe; 2014-01-27 at 12:47 AM.

  9. #609
    Deleted
    i feel they should do like icc or ds and nerf by 30%. these new nerfs are rlly not enough. imo 10m is way overtuned.it has take me over 3 digit attempts just to kill garrosh. we were stuck on in for like 2 months. not looking forward to next week.

  10. #610
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Aseyhe View Post
    Your second point is the only one of these that's strictly true.

    1. I've never heard of the third wave of adds in p1 being an issue. During progression we sometimes beat them and sometimes didn't and it wasn't a concern either way.
    3. 2 empowered whirls before third phase was completely normal for guilds beating the fight early on. Beating that second whirl would actually have been unheard of.
    4. Likewise, guilds killing Garrosh early on were not even close to beating the second whirl in phase 3 either.

    I guess you could say beating those p2/p3 whirls makes the fight significantly easier, which is indeed what you said, but I still don't understand the claim about p1.
    1. While dealing with a third set of waves is possible, if your dps was that bad the fight itself was probably impossible. It was more a benchmark. It could cause you to waste valuable cds though.

    3. We were having 2 whirls for a majority of the progression, but our raid leader was not happy about that and towards the end our dps increased so much that we managed to get it down in 1 whirl. It was actually more than possible to beat the second whirl even at low item levels, but required very good setup and players.

    4. Yeah, we got 3 several times on good tries, 2 are very easy to deal with, the third was also easy if it came late since then you could just off-tank the wave. Pushing iti n 1 whirl was just unthinkable. We even got 4 once on a try where a few dps died, still managed to get to p4 though. Half of the team alive though

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    1. While dealing with a third set of waves is possible, if your dps was that bad the fight itself was probably impossible. It was more a benchmark. It could cause you to waste valuable cds though.
    Not true in the slightest, I've been seeing a third wave almost every week due to buyers and it's still perfectly killable.

  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by apollo2kappa View Post
    Blizz said the encounters are more difficult that intended, and for every group like yours close to a kill there are others on the same boss but NOT close to a kill, and these adjustments bring the difficulty closer to what was intended. I completely understand wanting a kill before the nerfs, but you shouldn't be upset over not getting a killing on an over-tuned boss before it was properly tuned.

    The actual nerfs will likely begin in a few weeks or months, when Blizz starts the incremental flat 5% nerfs (up to 30%, typically) to the raid as a whole.
    Typically?
    Wasn't dragon soul 35% reduction to damage and health? Effectively that is 50% increase to player damage, healing and health?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Just because Mannoroth and Archimonde are involved doesn't mean it's Legion. They could just be on vacation, demolishing Draenor to build their new summer home.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dundebuns View Post
    Did you know that salt has sodium and chlorine in it!!!! Sodium explodes when exposed to atmosphere and you clean your toilets with chlorine!!

  13. #613
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by zoomgpally View Post
    Typically?
    Wasn't dragon soul 35% reduction to damage and health? Effectively that is 50% increase to player damage, healing and health?
    I doubt that's too far off. Yeah the fights were probably about 40-50% easier in the last weeks, and that's without counting gear advantage.

  14. #614
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira View Post
    Not true in the slightest, I've been seeing a third wave almost every week due to buyers and it's still perfectly killable.
    You are talking about farm kills, not progress kills. Significant difference.

  15. #615
    I doubt theyll do the incremental nerfs this time around, most likely they nerf H Garry a bit at some point in the future and thats it. And the nerfs to Blackfuse and Thok made perfect sense, Thok was way harder than anything before him the jump in dificulty was too big for the average raiding guild and Blackfuse was way harder than any other non Garrosh boss and he shouldnt be, Klaxxi was suposed to be the hardest one before Garrosh.

  16. #616
    Deleted
    blackfuse is "easy" now

  17. #617
    Also about H Garrosh, the fight is incredibly boring, one of the worst fights ever designed in this game. He doesnt hold a candle to H Lei Shen, a much better fight for sure. I dont like the hey lets repeat the entire normal mode fight with insanely high damage output from the boss and buf his HP 40% and then lets slap a new phase after that so the figth lasts for half a decade design filosophy, sadly Blizz does this way too often on last tier bosses (Sha of infinite boredon Im looking at you).

  18. #618
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarithus View Post
    Yes it is a game, a game that I still put a decent amount of time and effort into, like any hobby. Yes other people play the game, and we're being punished with nerfs because of it.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I knew it was coming sooner or later, it just hurts more now as it actually affects me.
    It is a MMO, you can't expect it always fits your timeline or expectation, while you hate nerfing, some other guilds welcome it. It is a part of life.

  19. #619
    I'll contribute to this thread saying something people sometimes don't understand.

    Blizzard is preoccupied with the low numbers in Heroics, and like always they get the wrong input and the wrong output.

    People are not doing heroics because:
    1 - They don't care.
    2 - They don't have gear.
    3 - They need to iron their skills.

    Nerfing it only helps the idiots and make the real raiders who want to push it deceived.

    LFR is not healthy to the game, the things i saw there, i dont want to talk about it. NEVER EVAR AGAIN.

    The game is going, excuse me here, TO THE GROUND BABY!!!

  20. #620
    I've been 14/14h since before Thanksgiving, honestly I hope they put in a stacking nerf like they did with DS, Paragons is still the fight I dread doing every week, blackfuse and heroic Garrosh are easier than that fight now

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