Is WoW always going to be like this?

[Constraint]

Can spend a few hours in LFR.

Says he doesn't have time to raid.


K lol.

Mm, all too many people use this excuse. There are plenty of guilds who raid normals for less time per weekend than it takes to do LFR with the average group. Sure, the majority of them certainly don't kill Garrosh in one run, but who cares?

[Pancaspe]

WOW is very easy to pick up, hard as Hell to Master.

It is a perfect balance.

[Maniac2]

Omg someone remembers what Wow was all about. High five me bro

Yes, WoW USED to be about going out, make buddies etc. In Facebook era and dungeon finder era this is not needed anymore.

[AeneasBK]

Mm, all too many people use this excuse. There are plenty of guilds who raid normals for less time per weekend than it takes to do LFR with the average group. Sure, the majority of them certainly don't kill Garrosh in one run, but who cares?

Just because you might be this logical... are you suggesting that the time required to get into a guild that has a time schedule that matches your own (and remember; not everyone has a set schedule week to week; aso barring the server change fee attached) is LESS than it takes to log in press "I" queue for whatever wing you want and run it?

Really?

If you do; then of course the "I don't have the time" excuse sounds vacuous. But basically. YOU ARE WRONG

[IKT]

Truth.

Which part of his rant is true? Because I'm not seeing much, for example:

If blizzard didn't add all the stupid features that they did and made sure PvP/PvE had the highest priorities like they did throughout vanilla/THC, the game would still have a flourishing community.

They did in Cata, remember? Dungeons were very difficult had a high fail rate, awarded blues not epics, and all Raids/PVP/Dungeons got the Vanilla treatment AND LFR didn't exist for the first tier of raids and firelands, what happened? Players left in the MILLIONS.

Don't think I'm not on your side here, I like my dungeons difficult and my raids epic, but we're not the average player and attempting to fix the issue you assume is the problem by applying your thinking to the wrong side of the issue isn't helping.

[schwank05]

That was how it was at the time now Flex has pretty much crushed LFR which is amazing. It's harder and requires some thinking and actual planning to complete as well as drops better gear.

[Dorothyjean]

I admit that when I changed my prot paladin to ret, I was playing a Ret in full tank gear in LFR and I did the same thing with my bear going boomkin... however...

The one thing he does not address and I am in no way supporting this apathy but 5-man's and LFR's are not "the game". They are the tool to reach The Game which is getting into Real Raiding with other people and having to work with a team to achieve success. That apathy he speaks of will hit a brick wall at this point on Normal Raiding and even into Flex raiding but once you get to Heroic you won't even hit a brick wall -- you will simply not be acknowledged with that attitude towards the game.

What he calls apathy, I call a tool... its a tool for me to easily get to Normal where I want to be. If other do not wish to be where I am or on my level, that is fine but I enjoy having a quick entry into Normal by doing almost nothing. I am an old player and I understand what it took to get into raiding / attunement etc. and in some ways I miss it but I'm glad its where its at now because I have choices. If my Warlock gets nerfed insanely where tanks beat me on DPS constantly, I can go "Hey, I have an ele shaman... can I bring that to the raid and try to be more effective for you guys..." and bam, in a week, I have a nicely geared up Ele Shaman ready to go. Before, say back in BC, I played my Prot Paladin ... and thats all I played because I didn't have a choice really. I always got the best gear to help with progression and if I made the decision to change my character, I would be denied because my alt pretty much sucked and would take probably a month to get geared up to raid properly. As an example, my Paladin -- oldest character, I decided on the Monday yesterday that I wanted to raid on the weekend since my main guild is pretty quiet. A bunch of LFR... a few wings of Flex... bam, my Ret Paladin went from 504 ilvl to 525 ilvl in One Day. That "apathy" as he put it is now my quick gateway to doing what I want to do which is Raiding on Normal/Flex with a guild. If I did the same thing back in BC, it wouldn't take one day or one week... I would be spending every weekend working on my character for a month or two to get where I needed to be.

[Sierra85]

That was how it was at the time now Flex has pretty much crushed LFR which is amazing. It's harder and requires some thinking and actual planning to complete as well as drops better gear.

Will Flex replace LFR as the tourist mode? probably not, but i think the community and maybe even some dev's are changing focus with WoD and making the game a little more difficult. E.g. take a look at some of the most recent tweets about WoD! i think they may be shifting gears and leave LFR in the dust.

[Kelimbror]

OP thinks 'seeing content' in LFR and getting the power equivalency of having quest greens when compared in power to Heroic iLvls is something incredulous. I can't say I'm surprised, but it really is mind boggling how much the color purple affects someone's ability to be rational. Doing LFR appropriately rewards the modest commitment it entails. You wait in queues, suffer through bad groups, and all the other drawbacks the system has in order to make modest character progression. There is no prestige, no commendable accomplishment, and is merely a speck in the sea of what you can attain in the game. You are overreacting to the Nth degree. Get over it.

[Ronduwil]

The sentence "full epic" to refer "I'm LFR geared." is going to make you laughed at.

Exactly. Consider that fully heroic geared players right now are sporting a 575+ ilevel and that Preach would have been sporting a 502 at the time even assuming he had filled every single slot with the best gear available from LFR at the time. These days an LFR player could aspire to close to a 535, assuming the managed to get the cape with that strategy (and to be honest, with all the kicks and failed groups they would endure these days, I'm skeptical they could get it). Then again, since Ordos and the Celestials seem to drop normal raid loot like it's on clearance at Walmart they might be able to push their way up into the 560s by maxing out their warforged seals on a weekly basis, but that would involve farming coins, and that is contrary to the basic premise of the video which was that a player could just auto-follow their way to in-game glory.

- - - Updated - - -

That was how it was at the time now Flex has pretty much crushed LFR which is amazing. It's harder and requires some thinking and actual planning to complete as well as drops better gear.

While I agree that Flex is a more engaging than LFR, I think that your statement about how it "crushed" it is a little exaggerated. The statistics don't back up your assertion: Siege of Orgrimmar Progression by Difficulty

[Deleted]

OP thinks 'seeing content' in LFR and getting the power equivalency of having quest greens when compared in power to Heroic iLvls is something incredulous. I can't say I'm surprised, but it really is mind boggling how much the color purple affects someone's ability to be rational. Doing LFR appropriately rewards the modest commitment it entails. You wait in queues, suffer through bad groups, and all the other drawbacks the system has in order to make modest character progression. There is no prestige, no commendable accomplishment, and is merely a speck in the sea of what you can attain in the game. You are overreacting to the Nth degree. Get over it.

Can you please tell us what are the differences between this 2 items? One is from LFR and the other only a small % of the community is able to get it.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=94984#dropped-by
http://www.wowhead.com/item=96550

Can you see now why a "LFR hero" feels (with legit reason) totally accomplished in this game?
Look at the items. Tell me what your eyes see....

[Cosmic Janitor]

Can you please tell us what are the differences between this 2 items? One is from LFR and the other only a small % of the community is able to get it.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=94984#dropped-by
http://www.wowhead.com/item=96550

Can you see now why a "LFR hero" feels (with legit reason) totally accomplished in this game?
Look at the items. Tell me what your eyes see....

To be fair, with the shoulders of garrosh they made sure that they only drop in normal+. So I guess there is a difference after all, for most other gear it is diffrent by color, and for some classes the best looking color is defineatly the heroic version, though that is subjective in the end I guess.

[Ronduwil]

Can you please tell us what are the differences between this 2 items? One is from LFR and the other only a small % of the community is able to get it.

Until WoD hits and a small % of the community will be able to solo it while the vast majority will be able to PUG their way to it on a rainy day. Gear is not accomplishment. Never has been and never will be.

[StrayFox]

I don't care! Are you telling me a player that does NOTHING can complete 99% of content in this game?

One, they aren't doing nothing and two, what a horribly selfish thing to say. If people want to see content why can't they? There is harder and more challenging content for those who want it and easy content for people who want to see it. Its horribly selfish to think that just because you don't have time to commit to a weekly raid schedule you have to ignore a huge amount of content.

Seriously I'd hate it if there wasn't any challenging content available but I don't give two shits if a player wants a easy way to see content as long as I get a harder version to test my skills and show off my achievement.

[Kelimbror]

Can you please tell us what are the differences between this 2 items? One is from LFR and the other only a small % of the community is able to get it.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=94984#dropped-by
http://www.wowhead.com/item=96550

Can you see now why a "LFR hero" feels (with legit reason) totally accomplished in this game?
Look at the items. Tell me what your eyes see....

1) The items you linked show a normal mode ilvl and a heroic, neither of which reflect the ilvl of an LFR piece of gear which is 502.

2) No, I can't see why an 'LFR hero' (a rather pathetic attempt at insult) would feel totally accomplished unless their personal progression is what they care about.

Which brings me to a couple of points: Getting an item that is 33 ilvls lower than BiS isn't the pinnacle of gearing. That much should be painfully obvious, because it's irrefutable facts in the form of raw data...numbers. iLvl 502 =/= iLvl 535 (and technically thunderforged is even better b/c it's 541, but I'm giving you a small consolation.)

Furthermore, if someone's personal goals are to achieve the highest level they can get out of LFR and thus they feel personal satisfaction out of achieving this, I'm very hard pressed to find how a rational person would let this affect them. Are you also dissatisfied when a homeless person finally gets their life together enough to work a minimum wage job and live in section 8 housing? Does this somehow ruin your ability to live in a nicer home with a better job? Not to slight anyone's numerically lesser accomplishment, because accomplishing goals of any sort should be commendable.

But to let someone achieving a drastically lower status than another person ruin your desire or enjoyment from the higher achievement is borderline psychosis.

[cabyio]

This I do believe is a problem that WoW's had for a while, there's a large gap between those that run LFR and those that run Normal/Flex/Heroic.

Absolutely nothing is stopping people from forming their own groups, starting at flex 1 and working their way through that gap. If there are so many people in that gap it should be easy as hell to form into groups with the same situation and goal.

[GLorym]

You know, not getting to see Naxxramas was a good thing. It was a mysterious place that you hoped to one day venture into, after you prove yourself worthy and become part of the Azeroth's elite. You saw the outside and heard tales of its inside, of the monstrosities that laid locked in its chambers. And you occasionally saw a living legend who once fought his way in, and also made it out alive. You didn't have to go to the WW II front-line to experience it, it affected you by just hearing about it and getting news from survivors. Naxxramas was pretty much the same, and that game philosophy was totally legitimate for me. Part of what makes history awesome is that we never experienced it directly, but just read about it and see consequences from it, while everything else depends on one's imagination of what really happened or how it looked like. WoW shifted away gradually from things that produced that effect and that is a big part of the reason I haven't been playing for the last 2 expansions.

And in order to make sure the content has been seen by a big percentage of the player base prior to the launch of a new expansion, Blizzard could have implemented a quest that would go something like this from the mouth of a quest giver: ''Heroes of Azeroth, a new threat has risen on the horizon, one that rivals the Evil itself. In order for us to face it as we have always done in our past, we need to become stronger and prepare for the worst. Champions, I have one last task for you. You have seen the horrors of the past and its effects on the present, and it is time for you to share that experience. Train as many as you can with your knowledge and skills, and win the ultimate trophy(*). Only once we become strong as a whole, we would be ready to go trough the Dark Portal. Now go! ...and prepare the world for what is coming...''

*Basically guilds would have been given some incentive (titles, achievements, mounts, many different valid options) as a reward in getting more and more people to raid the content. So the best guild on the server would have had few hundreds or thousands of people that have gone trough the hardest of content. That way many people would have seen the content, socializing and solidarity would have been a fundamental characteristic of the game, and all it variety in difficulty and progression would have remained.

I can write more about this, and I am liking it as it revives memories and imagination, but my point is more or less made.

[Deleted]

1) Getting an item that is 33 ilvls lower than BiS isn't the pinnacle of gearing. That much should be painfully obvious, because it's irrefutable facts in the form of raw data...numbers. iLvl 502 =/= iLvl 535 (and technically thunderforged is even better b/c it's 541, but I'm giving you a small consolation.)

Are you also dissatisfied when a homeless person finally gets their life together enough to work a minimum wage job and live in section 8 housing? Does this somehow ruin your ability to live in a nicer home with a better job? Not to slight anyone's numerically lesser accomplishment, because accomplishing goals of any sort should be commendable.

But to let someone achieving a drastically lower status than another person ruin your desire or enjoyment from the higher achievement is borderline psychosis.

"Ilvl", "data", "numbers", "tags", "technically", terms a LFR raider don't understand. Its plain simple what they want. Is beautiful l epics, and they already have the best looking ones ingame so...

Oh my god that argument that one cant have fun if everyone else is, I hate that one.
Its not about that man. Its about proper game design. The "LFR "raider"" is being rewarded with the best looking gear ingame. That means he has no incentive to continue playing! Therefore will probably unsubscribe. I would LOVE to see the number of people that unsubscribed wow until WoD don't come up. I bet its growing by the second. And it makes absolutely no sense rewarding people with the best looking gear this game has to offer to people doing afk doable content. Its really offensive to the dedicated players...and I mean Reeeally offensive.

[Kelimbror]

"Ilvl", "data", "numbers", "tags", "technically", terms a LFR raider don't understand.

I have no idea how I use those terms correctly then, being an LFR raider myself. I guess I just got really, really lucky.

"Oh my god that argument that one cant have fun if everyone else is, I hate that one.

You follow up by explaining that someone else looks as cool as you do, even though you can inspect them and that Verdant Badge of 'Raid Finder' is right there for everyone to see. Sounds like your fun is being ruined by someone else's to me.

"
Its not about that man. Its about proper game design. The "LFR "raider"" is being rewarded with the best looking gear ingame.

You mean it is about aesthetics/cosmetics and nothing to do with game design right?

"That means he has no incentive to continue playing! Therefore will probably unsubscribe.

Yes. They look special, so they have no motivation to try and get better gear so that it is easier to solo elites and rares much less increase their dps, or do achievements, or the myriad of other activities to do in the game. Because everyone else is so shallow that they don't care about actual character improvement and only care about looking like the have the best current raid gear.

That's why half of wow players run around in transmog gear from 3 expansions ago, right? I'm sorry, but your argument is eroding even further if you think specific cosmetics are what WoW success hinges on especially in an era of Transmog. That's so far off the mark it's not even funny.

PS- I'm a DK LFR Hero. Yeah I'm rocking my super awesome 541 ilv average and I look so cool. You know why I look so cool? I am transmogged to my DK starter gear.

[Jun]

"Ilvl", "data", "numbers", "tags", "technically", terms a LFR raider don't understand. Its plain simple what they want. Is beautiful l epics, and they already have the best looking ones ingame so...

Oh my god that argument that one cant have fun if everyone else is, I hate that one.
Its not about that man. Its about proper game design. The "LFR "raider"" is being rewarded with the best looking gear ingame. That means he has no incentive to continue playing! Therefore will probably unsubscribe. I would LOVE to see the number of people that unsubscribed wow until WoD don't come up. I bet its growing by the second. And it makes absolutely no sense rewarding people with the best looking gear this game has to offer to people doing afk doable content. Its really offensive to the dedicated players...and I mean Reeeally offensive.

Offensive? How? They're pixels. Not even your pixels.
LFR serves two purposes. It's a stepping stone for gearing, and for helping build tier sets during early tier progression. This purpose is nullified within a couple of weeks from raid launch.
Second purpose: So that people who want to experience content and story can do just as much.
Is the system perfect? No.
Is any system perfect? No.
I raid casually normal mode, working on heroics in a 10 man guild. Twice a week. I can afford to work on content and see it my own way.
That wasn't always the case. Real life job, real life responsibilities. I couldn't remain a basement dweller for the rest of my life, so I had to get off my rear and work. I lost the time I used to have for hardcore progression raiding like I used to do in Vanilla and BC. So I can see the need for something like LFR. There is a fair chunk of the player base that can't devote the time, effort, or even latency/FPS to make raiding normal worthwhile. Blizz went to all the trouble of designing these raids with the intent of letting players play them. Let them play.

Loot? It's loot. It has Raid Finder on the description. Sure some of it looks nice, but honestly, who doesn't transmog gear these days?

As far as proper game design goes, if I had to bet on anybody in the industry knowing what proper game design is, and marketing it in such a way as to make money, my money is on Blizzard. They've kinda been doing it for a while.

But hey, what do I know? I'm sure Blizzard has no flipping clue what they're doing. They're not successful or anything. </sarcasm>