Is WoW always going to be like this?

[Varabently]

I never considered that LFR would prevent someone from doing flex/normal/heroic. I always saw it as a stepping stone. Those players that want a challenge will always seek more challenging content up to their failure point. I would argue that those players doing LFR are the same players who were content just farming heroics and getting "raid" level gear from badges/JP/VP/Rep in prior expansions. I think now they just do those things in LFR instead of in heroics. Some players want a challenge while others just want to breeze through content without trying too hard. There's nothing wrong with playing that way, that's why LFR was invented. To give those players who weren't as good or didn't care as much more content.

It doesn't seem to take anything away from more challenge-oriented players. I think you justh ave to realize that's who LFR is for. If you run LFR or heroics with random people, you are often playing with people who don't care to get better. They just play for the fun of playing and don't care if their DPS is low or aren't usign the right gems, etc. It was a hard thing for me to realize since that's such a strange behavior, but it's just different.

In the immortal words of Kevin Hart "Do you boo boo, cause guess what? Imma do me. DO YOU BOO BOO, DO YOU!" i.e. people have different motivations for playing.

[Akka]

I'm still not finding your argument that the game reached its peak when almost no one raided as a compelling argument that exclusive raids were crucial to its success. To be honest the conclusion I would draw from that is that they should scrap raids altogether and focus on making content that players will actually enjoy.

"almost no one raided" ? Were you actually there at the time ? There was, at the very minimum, half of the population who raided at some level. Don't mix "not everything was about raids" with "nearly nothing was about raids".

My argument is that raids were here for people who actually liked raids, and there was other content for people who didn't like raids, so everyone was more or less happy (minus some frustration here and there, but, as I said before, mostly the "good" frustration that push you to improve/do better, as opposed to the "bad" frustration of today which is just pure annoyance).

Cramming everyone into raids was just the equivalent of Windows 8 : making an underwhelming one-size-fits-all solution for widely different users, which means it's subpar for everyone.

I have to justify why a 10 year old game that costs $180 per year to play is losing subs?

And here I thought basic common sense could do that for me.

Let me repeat myself :

I've seen the "age" argument used since late Vanilla (yes, late VANILLA). Sorry if I can't take it seriously anymore.

The age argument is just a crutch to ignore criticisms. It can be used anywhere, anytime, and used as an universal excuse.

Saying that you are motivated by something you'll never see is.... special.

It's actually a VERY common argument that is completely valid (and was even specifically quoted by LoL designer not very long ago). It's also pretty obvious when you're not purposedly obtuse due to having an agenda : it means you haven't run out of content, that there is still something else to see.

Tossing nostalgia goggles and opinions aside, judging purely from what is reasonably known about the current MMO market

Anyone using the tired and stale "nostalgia" counter has already lost any credibility.
Also, the rest of your arguments are the usual canned answers that were disproved countless times, which always consider that people playing WoW in 2005 were all jobless students who all have grown up and hence have less time due to added responsabilities.
Which is a pretty idiotic reasoning, as lots of people were already people with family and jobs, and also as it's not like there is no more jobless students now to replace the ones that were before.

[Ronduwil]

Gear isnt content, it is a reward for doing content.

If so then it's a piss-poor reward for doing content because, unlike a title or mount, you're going to vendor that crap the minute the next expansion hits. Gear is effectively a personal cumulative content nerf, and that's it. I would definitely classify it as content because it changes your appearance, just like moving from one room to the next changes the scenery. If you're looking to gear for rewards, then I'd say you're setting your sights pathetically low.

[Theodon]

If you^ can't understand something simple as to how LFR could remove peoples incentive to keep playing than no amount of explaining will show you.

If LFR removes their incentive to play the game then what was their incentive to begin with? LFR gear is a means to the same ends many have been aiming for in MMORPGs since they were introduced, which is to improve your character; make them stronger. When you get stronger through gear, you get the shiny rewards in the form of titles, mounts, and achievements from the more dificult encounters. You cannot do that without the gear.

People had this same argument when badge gear was introduced; "Why bother raiding when you can get epics from running heroic 5 mans all day?" Between TBC and Wrath being released - both including badge gear - the subs jumped up, so I don't see why LFR gear is any different and why it's being blamed for the drop in subs here.

If people are satisfied with stopping at being LFR geared then so be it. Removing it or changing it so it doesn't include gear isn't going to push them in to doing normal raids. They'll more than likely just stop at badge gear. I don't think it removes their incentive to play because they must not have an incentive to raid if they don't do it after LFR. You should not do LFR to experience the content because it's very much watered down and full of total cunts.

[Ronduwil]

Yes, some people grow bored. But the vast amount of excellent players that quit in the beginning/middle of cata didnt grow bored, they quit because of the state of the game.

Yes, because the game was in a state of being boring for non-raiders. You pretty much denied what he said and then restated it.

[Dormie]

If LFR removes their incentive to play the game then what was their incentive to begin with? LFR gear is a means to the same ends many have been aiming for in MMORPGs since they were introduced, which is to improve your character; make them stronger. When you get stronger through gear, you get the shiny rewards in the form of titles, mounts, and achievements from the more dificult encounters. You cannot do that without the gear.

People had this same argument when badge gear was introduced; "Why bother raiding when you can get epics from running heroic 5 mans all day?" Between TBC and Wrath being released - both including badge gear - the subs jumped up, so I don't see why LFR gear is any different and why it's being blamed for the drop in subs here.

Before people did heroic 5 mans for badges in order to build up to doing raids. Now people do the raids in order to do the same raids on a harder difficulty. See the difference? You're doing raids just to do them again, rather than doing 5 mans to do different content.

[Ronduwil]

The issue, as I've stated many times and Preach explains in his video, is that LFR is poison for new players in that it pretty much ruins their motivation and incentive to actually become better and get into higher raiding. There are barely any viable and active mid- to high tier raiders in the 5.0 generation.

If a game has to provide incentives to get players to participate then the problem is with the content itself, not with the incentives or lack thereof. You can only bribe 15 year olds with "greater power" for so long before they grow into 24 year olds who see in-game power for the meaningless sham it is. The reward is the experience itself, not the gear. If you think that LFR experience is really as good as raiding with a guild then I think you're in the wrong guild. Gear is admittedly an incentive to raid, but it's one of the weakest ones. When I think of Ulduar I think of the massive spectacles and the unique boss encounters. The gear was vendored the day ToC dropped.

- - - Updated - - -

They can see everything they just have to put in more effort to see end game content than logging in and pressing queue.

I'm glad you don't run Disneyland. If you had your way you'd have to run a marathon before you could ride Space Mountain. Why should players have to put in effort to participate in a game that's charging an annual $180 fee for admission? The burden is on the content creator to convince players to fork over their money, not on the player to become good enough to consume content. You should put in effort to find a spouse, to acquire a house, and/or to get ahead at your job. You shouldn't have to put in effort just to find something to do inside a meaningless game.

[Theodon]

Before people did heroic 5 mans for badges in order to build up to doing raids. Now people do the raids in order to do the same raids on a harder difficulty. See the difference? You're doing raids just to do them again, rather than doing 5 mans to do different content.

What would they do if they couldn't get in to a raiding guild to see those raids prior to LFR? I don't think people do raiding solely to see the encounters, but rather they do it to make their character stronger and aim for the good stuff; the later of which isn't found in LFR. If people raid to see the encounters then how would removing LFR keep them subbed?

[Deleted]

What would they do if they couldn't get in to a raiding guild to see those raids prior to LFR? I don't think people do raiding solely to see the encounters, but rather they do it to make their character stronger and aim for the good stuff; the later of which isn't found in LFR. If people raid to see the encounters then how would removing LFR keep them subbed?

Did getting into raiding guilds get harder lately? Back in wrath/cata it was really easy. Anecdotal experience from a mediocre at best raider.

Honestly if people are that upset that they can't clear a raid as quickly as the top 5% of guilds, they shouldn't be involved in the first place. Most of the fun me and my guild got from raiding was 'the experience itself', nobody really cared much about the gear, sure, it was a nice addon if we managed to make some progress that week, but for us it was all about getting there.

If anything, -not- making speedy progress probably extended our subscriptions by a pretty good margin.

[Deleted]

What would they do if they couldn't get in to a raiding guild to see those raids prior to LFR? I don't think people do raiding solely to see the encounters, but rather they do it to make their character stronger and aim for the good stuff; the later of which isn't found in LFR.

There were always different levels of guilds and there were always guilds that would recruit anyone.
You join a guild that let's say is at the last boss at a raid, someday they want to gear their alts, they would make a guild run starting from the first boss and normally this is where you join to prove yourself/gear up.
Or join a guild that just started raiding and progress with them, instead of wanting to jump to higher level guilds the moment you finish from doing Hcs.
Or you can create your own guild just like how I did before hitting 80, the moment I hit 80 I was told to do Hcs and once I had gear they ran Naxx with me.

Don't know about how people think, but probably most if not all of my friends raid for gear, while I raid for fun/to see new content and clear challenges that awaits me.

If people raid to see the encounters then how would removing LFR keep them subbed?

Well get good son and join a guild.
At least that's how I did it and that's what I will keep doing to see the content that Blizzard release, people didn't need LFR to see content back then.

EDIT: The most time I had fun with, is when I joined a guild which had terrible players, we spent weeks wiping on Shannox normal.
Was fun watching them run into traps and going "Oops didn't see it"

[Dormie]

Flex is plenty accessible for people that want to see the raids. Don't even need a guild.

[Kelimbror]

Flex is plenty accessible for people that want to see the raids. Don't even need a guild.

What is this...goal post move #327? Now your problem is with automated grouping? This is classic *whips out the popcorn*. When you can't find an excuse that holds ground, that's ok...just use another one! You can never run out of excuses.

[Deleted]

If so then it's a piss-poor reward for doing content because, unlike a title or mount, you're going to vendor that crap the minute the next expansion hits. Gear is effectively a personal cumulative content nerf, and that's it. I would definitely classify it as content because it changes your appearance, just like moving from one room to the next changes the scenery. If you're looking to gear for rewards, then I'd say you're setting your sights pathetically low.

Oh ok then. If you agree gear means Nothing then you would totally agree with the changing of gear designs of LFR.
Lets say to...like this:

http://www.wowhead.com/item=65312
http://www.wowhead.com/item=64511
http://www.wowhead.com/item=86908

You would have absolutely no problem with this, since gear means nothing to you or anyone. Why cant LFR gear have this designs and the normal raiding drop normal cool looking epics?

[Deleted]

I'm not going to argue that LFR should be removed. I never have and never will. But until LFR IS optional, arguing that it is is just useless. AS of now, LFR is NOT optional. It is the only option to gear for normal mode raiding.

I call BS. Getting to a Flex/Normal guild doesn't require you to run any LFR. There are plenty of them around - I think my server has 4-5 "social flex guilds" advertising pretty much around the clock

[Ronduwil]

Oh ok then. If you agree gear means Nothing then you would totally agree with the changing of gear designs of LFR.
Lets say to...like this:

http://www.wowhead.com/item=65312
http://www.wowhead.com/item=64511
http://www.wowhead.com/item=86908

You would have absolutely no problem with this, since gear means nothing to you or anyone. Why cant LFR gear have this designs and the normal raiding drop normal cool looking epics?

If the ilevel was the same as now I seriously wouldn't give a crap. It's all getting transmogged anyway. The most hilarious aspect of that post was that the last item listed is an actual raid drop from the final boss in ToES. You even showed the LFR version, thereby answering your own question: "Why can't LFR gear have this designs...?" The answer is that it does have that design. The item you linked is even an LFR item. Granted, there's also a heroic version of it:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=87174

This is the kind of gear that LFR is making accessible to everyone. I can see why you're so upset (not).

[Kelimbror]

You would have absolutely no problem with this, since gear means nothing to you or anyone. Why cant LFR gear have this designs and the normal raiding drop normal cool looking epics?

Inherently there's not a problem with having LFR look different aesthetically as long as it rewards the same level of gear, however it is reinforcing sociological ideals of a caste system in a direct way as opposed to how it is accomplished now with the text of 'Raid Finder' already put on the gear. Essentially what you want, which is to put those dirty peasants in their place, already occurs with a less aggressive solution. It's a wonder you can accept anything in life with the way you look at it. (and ultimately transmog will nullify what you want anyways...so...what would be the point? It requires extra art resources to create two sets of gear. Let's use some common sense.)

[xxzenn01xx]

i reeeeally dont understand why hard core players complain about easy content available for "baddies" who cares what other people are doing? if your looking for hard conent, stick to doing your heroic modes that the baddies cant complete. you still get better gear then everyone through hard modes anyways. and the community arguement doesnt really hold up if your a hard core player, cause your not pugging heroic modes any ways? so far as i can tell, there no reason blizz shouldnt give players as much incentive as possible to get the most amount of people they can, in this game and enjoying vast amounts of content.

[Deleted]

i reeeeally dont understand why hard core players complain about easy content available for "baddies" who cares what other people are doing? if your looking for hard conent, stick to doing your heroic modes that the baddies cant complete. you still get better gear then everyone through hard modes anyways. and the community arguement doesnt really hold up if your a hard core player, cause your not pugging heroic modes any ways? so far as i can tell, there no reason blizz shouldnt give players as much incentive as possible to get the most amount of people they can, in this game and enjoying vast amounts of content.

You are not understanding something. The LFR is ruining the experience even for normal players.
The people complaining are not the hardcores but everyone that thinks the rewards from LFR are enought to completly cut their incentive to continue progressing and continue raiding...meaning this players (such as myself) will stop playing the game after completing the tourist mode.
i couldnt care less about a mount only 1% off the world is able to get, achievement or the slightly alternative colors...so i have no incentive to continue doing pve after LFR.

[Ronduwil]

The people complaining are not the hardcores but everyone that thinks the rewards from LFR are enought to completly cut their incentive to continue progressing and continue raiding...meaning this players (such as myself) will stop playing the game after completing the tourist mode.

I know an MMO-C poll is far from authoritative, but preliminary results from this indicate that the vast majority of respondents are still raiding outside of LFR:

Poll: Do you still raid outside of LFR?

So it sounds like a personal problem to me. Since you're so fixated on being able to take a nicer screenshot than everyone else as your incentive to raid then I can see why you would no longer be inclined to do it. Most raiders I know do it for the challenge, and LFR isn't providing that.

[Deleted]

Do you see what the first poster of that thread said?

"I haven't really raided (outside of the LFR) since ICC.. most of my friends haven't either. Is this the norm, or is it just me being burnt out.."

thats me and my friends also... :C