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  1. #841
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    Actually blizzard can make raids as exclusive as they want, and you have to deal with it. So I will pay $15 a month and get that content and you can pay $15 a month and sit on mmo-c complaining that you don't instead of working towards seeing it It's only as exclusive as you let it be personally. Every WoW player controls what they can and cannot see.
    I never suggested otherwise, but by that same token they can make raids as accessible as they want and you have to deal with it. They're going to do whatever they feel is going to net them the most profit. Right now they feel that making raids accessible to everyone is going to bring in more revenue so that's why they do it. If they thought there was money to be made in boosting your self esteem they would make raids less accessible to other players. From a business perspective, however, it makes more sense to provide content for lots of people for $15 a month than it does to provide content for a handful of people at $15 a month. My point was that in order to justify making content accessible to only 1/10 of the population they would have to jack up their prices ten-fold to break even. The problem is that the price change itself impacts demand for the product, so there is no guarantee that the 1/10 portion of the population that the raid was targeted at would even pay that much to maintain a sub so even that view is overly simplistic. The Ferrari example kind of disregarded that whole aspect of exclusivity. The concept is called supply and demand, and has been very influential in the development of the American economy.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  2. #842
    Quote Originally Posted by Alayen View Post
    By the way, I'd just like to point out to the world that WoW's subscriber decline had already been going on for at least half a year before LFR ever came out. But keep trying to link the two, while the people with business degrees and actual hard numbers (that is to say, Blizzard) keep ignoring you.
    I have never directly said it was the only cause of WoW's decline, that would be a stupid thing to do. I am guessing you are assuming I am going that direction? There are several factors including age, mediocre expansion (Cataclysm) and increased competition that caused WoW's decline, but I am sure there are other factors also included. What my argument was is that LFR didn't stop WoW from declining. I am not making LFR the cause either way.



    LFR was introduced Nov '11 and yes it flatlined and was decreasing before that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alayen View Post
    But keep feebly trying to link the two, while the people with business degrees and actual hard numbers (that is to say, Blizzard) keep ignoring you.
    You are putting to much weight on a "business degree", anyone can get a business degree. It probably is one of the easiest degrees to get. They are not gods and if history is an indication they can make stupid decisions and can also be completely wrong.
    Last edited by Sharuko; 2014-01-24 at 10:17 PM.

  3. #843
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Noone wants exclusive raids. What you people see as exclusive is just a side affect of true character progression. Meaning, getting somewhere new for the effort you put in.
    But what you are asking for IS exclusive raids. The difficulty is tied to accessibility. A randomly assembled group of people with (usually) no leadership, no efficient means of communication, and no investment in the success of the group as a whole is not capable of clearing raids on anything above maybe Flex difficulty (And I actually kinda doubt even that). Any solution to those issues makes the raids less accessible and closer to the traditional form raiding has taken.

    LFR wasn't about making the raids easier. It was about making them more accessible by allowing someone to find a group at any time on any day within a reasonable amount of time. The lower difficulty was necessary to make the primary goal of LFR actually work. If you raise the difficulty, the whole thing falls apart and we are back where we were prior to LFR's existence. Many people who are getting to at least see the content would now no longer be able to do so. Thus the more difficult content is not an incentive. If anything, it is a deterrent to continue playing because they will have a block of content,containing significant impact on the story behind the game, that is shut off from them completely. So why then should they continue to play once they get to the point (which is reached VERY quickly)? There is no reason to. So they quit.
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

  4. #844
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurbz View Post
    But what you are asking for IS exclusive raids. The difficulty is tied to accessibility. A randomly assembled group of people with (usually) no leadership, no efficient means of communication, and no investment in the success of the group as a whole is not capable of clearing raids on anything above maybe Flex difficulty (And I actually kinda doubt even that). Any solution to those issues makes the raids less accessible and closer to the traditional form raiding has taken.

    LFR wasn't about making the raids easier. It was about making them more accessible by allowing someone to find a group at any time on any day within a reasonable amount of time. The lower difficulty was necessary to make the primary goal of LFR actually work. If you raise the difficulty, the whole thing falls apart and we are back where we were prior to LFR's existence. Many people who are getting to at least see the content would now no longer be able to do so. Thus the more difficult content is not an incentive. If anything, it is a deterrent to continue playing because they will have a block of content,containing significant impact on the story behind the game, that is shut off from them completely. So why then should they continue to play once they get to the point (which is reached VERY quickly)? There is no reason to. So they quit.
    Removing LFR with flex still intact is not exclusive raids though. They are PLENTY puggable. The game needs to set a bar of moderate difficulty that players need to own up to. Otherwise it isn't players vs WoW, it's players vs themselves.

  5. #845
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharuko View Post
    Again you are looking at it from a extremely simplistic and literal point of view. Humans want to be a special cookie, we try to stand out all the time. We want things that are rare and covet things that are out of our reach. In my example, if literally everyone had a Ferrari it wouldn't be cool or coveted to own a Ferrari. A lot of this comes down to human nature.
    And any four year old kid who has read Dr. Seuss's story of the Sneetches knows where that leads. You want to be special and stand out, and Blizzard would be wise to take advantage of that as much as they can. However, they're not going to do it at the expense of their profits. You argue that their profits are declining because they don't make people feel special anymore, but Blizzard realizes that most people don't look to a video game to feel special; they look to a video game for a diversion from the rigors of day-to-day life. Your special feeling provides no value to Blizzard. The $12-$15 dollars that you fork over every month does. If making you feel special is going to retain your $12 while costing them nine other players' $12 they're still short $96 when all the math is done. They're going to do their best to make you feel special because that's what keeps you subbed, but they're not going to do it at other players' expense.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  6. #846
    Mechagnome Santoryu's Avatar
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    There's a few, go look it up yourself to watch videos, or even look at the dungeon journal and look for the moves labeled "Heroic Only", too many bosses to list each one.

    It does vary based on boss, it could be a simple change, or a few huge ones.
    I doubt very much the difference is as big as it was in Ulduar's hard modes.

    Seriously, those that think heroic bosses are identical to lfr bosses with increased damage and health are completely insane and have no idea what they are talking about. It couldn't be further than the truth.
    Those changes you applaud do not make the fight sufficiently different, like they did in Ulduar.

    First, in heroic, every single mechanic matters. Everyone has to do every mechanic correctly or you will most likely wipe. Second, there is usually more mechanics and/or mechanics that work differently. To say its just health and dmg output is a gross over simplification.
    Of course every mechanic must me done correctly - its damage is so much higher that it will result in death if you don't. Sure there are some extra abilities, but not nearly significant enough to warrant a visit after you've done LFR or Normal to death.

  7. #847
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    Once again, your personal schedule limits you. You control your schedule. Players make sacrifices all the time to see content they want. For some it is harder than others but that doesn't mean that its not possible. So it actually is true. Some people I've seen post here sleep for 4 hours some nights just to make time to raid. Its up to each individual whether the sacrifice is worth it for them. But in the end it is each persons decision to make it happen or to not make it happen.
    That is one of the most ignorant things I have ever seen posted on these forums.....

    My issue is not the amount of free time I have. I have plenty. More than enough to raid. I just never know when that is going to be. So how then can I raid outside of LFR when every other option available to me requires that I have a set, scheduled amount of time available, generally not less than 2 hours? The nature of my career prevents me from doing that. And I will not, nor would any rational person, quit my job just to raid. I would quit WoW first. Blizzard realizes this, which is why they put LFR in the game in the first place.
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

  8. #848
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    but Blizzard realizes that most people don't look to a video game to feel special; they look to a video game for a diversion from the rigors of day-to-day life. Your special feeling provides no value to Blizzard. The $12-$15 dollars that you fork over every month does. If making you feel special is going to retain your $12 while costing them nine other players' $12 they're still short $96 when all the math is done. They're going to do their best to make you feel special because that's what keeps you subbed, but they're not going to do it at other players' expense.
    These points are not at odds with each other, Blizzard can make you feel like a special cookie and they can make money from you. You make these ideas seem like they are at odds with each other, which is a flaw in your logic. You can feel special + the game can be a diversion from "rigors" of day-to-day life + make money from you.

    You are putting a lot of words in Blizzard's mouth, we don't know if they feel if people want to feel special or not. Look at Hearthstone, filled with rare golden cards with animations. If you play the game enough, even your hero will turn gold! Imagine that your own special golden hero. That seems like them wanting the player to feel special to me.
    Last edited by Sharuko; 2014-01-24 at 10:25 PM.

  9. #849
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    And any four year old kid who has read Dr. Seuss's story of the Sneetches knows where that leads. You want to be special and stand out, and Blizzard would be wise to take advantage of that as much as they can. However, they're not going to do it at the expense of their profits. You argue that their profits are declining because they don't make people feel special anymore, but Blizzard realizes that most people don't look to a video game to feel special; they look to a video game for a diversion from the rigors of day-to-day life. Your special feeling provides no value to Blizzard. The $12-$15 dollars that you fork over every month does. If making you feel special is going to retain your $12 while costing them nine other players' $12 they're still short $96 when all the math is done. They're going to do their best to make you feel special because that's what keeps you subbed, but they're not going to do it at other players' expense.
    Well I am guessing that since you complain constantly about blizzard and their design philosophy that they don't share your opinion of values. But keep thinking you are correct

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Santoryu View Post
    I doubt very much the difference is as big as it was in Ulduar's hard modes.



    Those changes you applaud do not make the fight sufficiently different, like they did in Ulduar.



    Of course every mechanic must me done correctly - its damage is so much higher that it will result in death if you don't. Sure there are some extra abilities, but not nearly significant enough to warrant a visit after you've done LFR or Normal to death.
    LOL you are soooooo wrong. Let me guess....last heroic anything you did was Ulduar so it must have been the hardest ever!!!! Typical point of view from the old school raider who stopped raiding.

  10. #850
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurbz View Post
    If anything, it is a deterrent to continue playing because they will have a block of content,containing significant impact on the story behind the game, that is shut off from them completely.
    Lets look at it like a door. You want us to believe that it is a locked door to these people. There is no way they can access it. But it reality its just a regular door. They are choosing not to put forth the effort to open it. IT IS A CHOICE. No one is disallowing them from doing the content. They are choosing not to do it.

  11. #851
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharuko View Post
    These points are not at odds with each other, Blizzard can make you feel like a special cookie and they can make money from you. You make these ideas seem like they are at odds with each other, which is a flaw in your logic.
    I never said the ideas were at odds with each other; I explicitly said that they would be wise to make you feel as special as possible. However, as you pointed out, they can't make everyone feel special all at the same time, so basing their entire model on the idea of making players feel special is a losing strategy. You want to feel special? Kill Garrosh on Heroic. The rest of us will do Normal, Flex, and/or LFR. If you want to take LFR away you have to take Heroic away too because Blizzard just isn't willing to dedicate the resources to create lots of raids and dungeons.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  12. #852
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurbz View Post
    That is one of the most ignorant things I have ever seen posted on these forums.....

    My issue is not the amount of free time I have. I have plenty. More than enough to raid. I just never know when that is going to be. So how then can I raid outside of LFR when every other option available to me requires that I have a set, scheduled amount of time available, generally not less than 2 hours? The nature of my career prevents me from doing that. And I will not, nor would any rational person, quit my job just to raid. I would quit WoW first. Blizzard realizes this, which is why they put LFR in the game in the first place.
    Then do LFR no one is stopping you. I don't get your argument i guess? loll

  13. #853
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    You want to feel special? Kill Garrosh on Heroic. The rest of us will do Normal, Flex, and/or LFR. If you want to take LFR away you have to take Heroic away too because Blizzard just isn't willing to dedicate the resources to create lots of raids and dungeons.
    It isn't about making everyone feel special, it is them trying to get to that point of feeling special. Back in BC and WotLK when I was a super casual (still am casual), I wanted things like LFR because I wanted to see everything. When it actually happened and I could kill the last boss in the game in a completely easy mode, after I did it, it killed my motivation to play longer. What I actually wanted, was wrong for me and it is one of the factors that made me quit. It isn't the only factor, but one of them.

  14. #854
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I never said the ideas were at odds with each other; I explicitly said that they would be wise to make you feel as special as possible. However, as you pointed out, they can't make everyone feel special all at the same time, so basing their entire model on the idea of making players feel special is a losing strategy. You want to feel special? Kill Garrosh on Heroic. The rest of us will do Normal, Flex, and/or LFR. If you want to take LFR away you have to take Heroic away too because Blizzard just isn't willing to dedicate the resources to create lots of raids and dungeons.
    This is the fundamental problem though, it's Blizz, not us. Bliz doesn't want to give us enough content. They want to push us all through the same content and expect us to be cool with it. Then they'll give us the content with 3 different shades and say its enough. People aren't doing raids? Lets force them to and then show the LFR numbers as proof that it's a huge success! Rather than giving us content AND raids, and making raids PuGable. They won't get rid of raids, despite what they say their participation numbers are, because they know the day they do is the day WoW dies.

  15. #855
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    Well I am guessing that since you complain constantly about blizzard and their design philosophy that they don't share your opinion of values. But keep thinking you are correct
    I can understand what someone is doing without actually agreeing with what they're doing. I understand why Blizzard created LFR, and I confess that in the DS era I was kind of happy about the move because I was doing Heroic raids on a low pop server at the time, and recruiting geared players was impossible. However, at the time I didn't realize that LFR would come at the expense of Heroic 5-mans. Now I know better. I can understand the trade-off without believing that it was worthwhile. If one or the other has to go I would prefer for it to be raids. Blizzard obviously feels the opposite.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  16. #856
    The guy who made the referenced video isnt very bright. WoW players comprise a society, and there are plenty of morons I encounter, in the real world who I could choose to berate, for being morons, people who don't understand the basics of walking on sidewalks, for example. I could correct them, but I decide it's not worth my time. It's the same thing in LFR. Anyone who's doing LFR needs something from it. Be it gear, or to practice a new class/spec, or even basic enjoyment. As long as you enter into an LFR, knowing that there are levels of PVE content above that, then you know you're not guaranteed to be playing with top tier players/toons. So yes, you can queue up for an LFR, get a BASIC understanding of the fight, and gear, that is bad, relative to the total of available PVE content.

    Is WoW really like this? I don't want a player like you to be part of the community, if that's your attitude. I'll refrain from encouraging you to come back for WoD. There are BG's and then there are Rated BG's. There are duels outside of Org/SW and then there are arenas. There are different levels of play, some introductory, some not, for all different levels of players. If you're incapable of coming to terms with Blizzard's desire to make a game that more than one demographic of gamers can enjoy, and yes, make money, then by all means, don't come back to WoW.

  17. #857
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    This is the fundamental problem though, it's Blizz, not us. Bliz doesn't want to give us enough content. They want to push us all through the same content and expect us to be cool with it. Then they'll give us the content with 3 different shades and say its enough. People aren't doing raids? Lets force them to and then show the LFR numbers as proof that it's a huge success! Rather than giving us content AND raids, and making raids PuGable.
    I agree that this is irritating, and I'm every bit as annoyed as you are with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    They won't get rid of raids, despite what they say their participation numbers are, because they know the day they do is the day WoW dies.
    And this is where you and I disagree. WoW would be fine without raids. I do agree, however, that they will never get rid of raids, but that's because raids are too near and dear to the developers' hearts for them to ever let them go entirely.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  18. #858
    Quote Originally Posted by Refridge View Post
    The guy who made the referenced video isnt very bright. WoW players comprise a society, and there are plenty of morons I encounter, in the real world who I could choose to berate, for being morons, people who don't understand the basics of walking on sidewalks, for example. I could correct them, but I decide it's not worth my time. It's the same thing in LFR. Anyone who's doing LFR needs something from it. Be it gear, or to practice a new class/spec, or even basic enjoyment. As long as you enter into an LFR, knowing that there are levels of PVE content above that, then you know you're not guaranteed to be playing with top tier players/toons. So yes, you can queue up for an LFR, get a BASIC understanding of the fight, and gear, that is bad, relative to the total of available PVE content.

    Is WoW really like this? I don't want a player like you to be part of the community, if that's your attitude. I'll refrain from encouraging you to come back for WoD. There are BG's and then there are Rated BG's. There are duels outside of Org/SW and then there are arenas. There are different levels of play, some introductory, some not, for all different levels of players. If you're incapable of coming to terms with Blizzard's desire to make a game that more than one demographic of gamers can enjoy, and yes, make money, then by all means, don't come back to WoW.
    But this ignores what end game is. You can't beat a game and have it be both difficult and easy at the same time. Or else beating it becomes meaningless. That's what they're trying to do.

  19. #859
    Quote Originally Posted by Santoryu View Post
    I doubt very much the difference is as big as it was in Ulduar's hard modes.



    Those changes you applaud do not make the fight sufficiently different, like they did in Ulduar.



    Of course every mechanic must me done correctly - its damage is so much higher that it will result in death if you don't. Sure there are some extra abilities, but not nearly significant enough to warrant a visit after you've done LFR or Normal to death.
    Also I would love your rationale between the difference in hard modes to now....I did Hardmode ulduar and I do heroics now....Ulduar was far less complex than any hard mode now. Ulduar hard modes were simply nothing in comparison to what is added now. So please with all your vast experience between the 2 heroic modes explain how ulduar was soooo much different. Because I can promise you that your words are baseless.

  20. #860
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    But this ignores what end game is. You can't beat a game and have it be both difficult and easy at the same time. Or else beating it becomes meaningless. That's what they're trying to do.
    Then why did people play Diablo II for so long? The single player version of the game was a faceroll, but people continued to multi-play it for years and years. How did the Civilization franchise last so long then? I mean, each version has various difficulty settings, and victory is practically assured on the lowest. You can even customize rules and enable cheat modes to skew the game in your favor. Yet, they're still putting out DLC content for Civ V.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

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