Is WoW always going to be like this?

[Sharuko]

but Blizzard realizes that most people don't look to a video game to feel special; they look to a video game for a diversion from the rigors of day-to-day life. Your special feeling provides no value to Blizzard. The $12-$15 dollars that you fork over every month does. If making you feel special is going to retain your $12 while costing them nine other players' $12 they're still short $96 when all the math is done. They're going to do their best to make you feel special because that's what keeps you subbed, but they're not going to do it at other players' expense.

These points are not at odds with each other, Blizzard can make you feel like a special cookie and they can make money from you. You make these ideas seem like they are at odds with each other, which is a flaw in your logic. You can feel special + the game can be a diversion from "rigors" of day-to-day life + make money from you.

You are putting a lot of words in Blizzard's mouth, we don't know if they feel if people want to feel special or not. Look at Hearthstone, filled with rare golden cards with animations. If you play the game enough, even your hero will turn gold! Imagine that your own special golden hero. That seems like them wanting the player to feel special to me.

[pallyopness]

And any four year old kid who has read Dr. Seuss's story of the Sneetches knows where that leads. You want to be special and stand out, and Blizzard would be wise to take advantage of that as much as they can. However, they're not going to do it at the expense of their profits. You argue that their profits are declining because they don't make people feel special anymore, but Blizzard realizes that most people don't look to a video game to feel special; they look to a video game for a diversion from the rigors of day-to-day life. Your special feeling provides no value to Blizzard. The $12-$15 dollars that you fork over every month does. If making you feel special is going to retain your $12 while costing them nine other players' $12 they're still short $96 when all the math is done. They're going to do their best to make you feel special because that's what keeps you subbed, but they're not going to do it at other players' expense.

Well I am guessing that since you complain constantly about blizzard and their design philosophy that they don't share your opinion of values. But keep thinking you are correct

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I doubt very much the difference is as big as it was in Ulduar's hard modes.



Those changes you applaud do not make the fight sufficiently different, like they did in Ulduar.



Of course every mechanic must me done correctly - its damage is so much higher that it will result in death if you don't. Sure there are some extra abilities, but not nearly significant enough to warrant a visit after you've done LFR or Normal to death.

LOL you are soooooo wrong. Let me guess....last heroic anything you did was Ulduar so it must have been the hardest ever!!!! Typical point of view from the old school raider who stopped raiding.

[cabyio]

If anything, it is a deterrent to continue playing because they will have a block of content,containing significant impact on the story behind the game, that is shut off from them completely.

Lets look at it like a door. You want us to believe that it is a locked door to these people. There is no way they can access it. But it reality its just a regular door. They are choosing not to put forth the effort to open it. IT IS A CHOICE. No one is disallowing them from doing the content. They are choosing not to do it.

[Ronduwil]

These points are not at odds with each other, Blizzard can make you feel like a special cookie and they can make money from you. You make these ideas seem like they are at odds with each other, which is a flaw in your logic.

I never said the ideas were at odds with each other; I explicitly said that they would be wise to make you feel as special as possible. However, as you pointed out, they can't make everyone feel special all at the same time, so basing their entire model on the idea of making players feel special is a losing strategy. You want to feel special? Kill Garrosh on Heroic. The rest of us will do Normal, Flex, and/or LFR. If you want to take LFR away you have to take Heroic away too because Blizzard just isn't willing to dedicate the resources to create lots of raids and dungeons.

[pallyopness]

That is one of the most ignorant things I have ever seen posted on these forums.....

My issue is not the amount of free time I have. I have plenty. More than enough to raid. I just never know when that is going to be. So how then can I raid outside of LFR when every other option available to me requires that I have a set, scheduled amount of time available, generally not less than 2 hours? The nature of my career prevents me from doing that. And I will not, nor would any rational person, quit my job just to raid. I would quit WoW first. Blizzard realizes this, which is why they put LFR in the game in the first place.

Then do LFR no one is stopping you. I don't get your argument i guess? loll

[Sharuko]

You want to feel special? Kill Garrosh on Heroic. The rest of us will do Normal, Flex, and/or LFR. If you want to take LFR away you have to take Heroic away too because Blizzard just isn't willing to dedicate the resources to create lots of raids and dungeons.

It isn't about making everyone feel special, it is them trying to get to that point of feeling special. Back in BC and WotLK when I was a super casual (still am casual), I wanted things like LFR because I wanted to see everything. When it actually happened and I could kill the last boss in the game in a completely easy mode, after I did it, it killed my motivation to play longer. What I actually wanted, was wrong for me and it is one of the factors that made me quit. It isn't the only factor, but one of them.

[Dormie]

I never said the ideas were at odds with each other; I explicitly said that they would be wise to make you feel as special as possible. However, as you pointed out, they can't make everyone feel special all at the same time, so basing their entire model on the idea of making players feel special is a losing strategy. You want to feel special? Kill Garrosh on Heroic. The rest of us will do Normal, Flex, and/or LFR. If you want to take LFR away you have to take Heroic away too because Blizzard just isn't willing to dedicate the resources to create lots of raids and dungeons.

This is the fundamental problem though, it's Blizz, not us. Bliz doesn't want to give us enough content. They want to push us all through the same content and expect us to be cool with it. Then they'll give us the content with 3 different shades and say its enough. People aren't doing raids? Lets force them to and then show the LFR numbers as proof that it's a huge success! Rather than giving us content AND raids, and making raids PuGable. They won't get rid of raids, despite what they say their participation numbers are, because they know the day they do is the day WoW dies.

[Ronduwil]

Well I am guessing that since you complain constantly about blizzard and their design philosophy that they don't share your opinion of values. But keep thinking you are correct

I can understand what someone is doing without actually agreeing with what they're doing. I understand why Blizzard created LFR, and I confess that in the DS era I was kind of happy about the move because I was doing Heroic raids on a low pop server at the time, and recruiting geared players was impossible. However, at the time I didn't realize that LFR would come at the expense of Heroic 5-mans. Now I know better. I can understand the trade-off without believing that it was worthwhile. If one or the other has to go I would prefer for it to be raids. Blizzard obviously feels the opposite.

[Refridge]

The guy who made the referenced video isnt very bright. WoW players comprise a society, and there are plenty of morons I encounter, in the real world who I could choose to berate, for being morons, people who don't understand the basics of walking on sidewalks, for example. I could correct them, but I decide it's not worth my time. It's the same thing in LFR. Anyone who's doing LFR needs something from it. Be it gear, or to practice a new class/spec, or even basic enjoyment. As long as you enter into an LFR, knowing that there are levels of PVE content above that, then you know you're not guaranteed to be playing with top tier players/toons. So yes, you can queue up for an LFR, get a BASIC understanding of the fight, and gear, that is bad, relative to the total of available PVE content.

Is WoW really like this? I don't want a player like you to be part of the community, if that's your attitude. I'll refrain from encouraging you to come back for WoD. There are BG's and then there are Rated BG's. There are duels outside of Org/SW and then there are arenas. There are different levels of play, some introductory, some not, for all different levels of players. If you're incapable of coming to terms with Blizzard's desire to make a game that more than one demographic of gamers can enjoy, and yes, make money, then by all means, don't come back to WoW.

[Ronduwil]

This is the fundamental problem though, it's Blizz, not us. Bliz doesn't want to give us enough content. They want to push us all through the same content and expect us to be cool with it. Then they'll give us the content with 3 different shades and say its enough. People aren't doing raids? Lets force them to and then show the LFR numbers as proof that it's a huge success! Rather than giving us content AND raids, and making raids PuGable.

I agree that this is irritating, and I'm every bit as annoyed as you are with this.

They won't get rid of raids, despite what they say their participation numbers are, because they know the day they do is the day WoW dies.

And this is where you and I disagree. WoW would be fine without raids. I do agree, however, that they will never get rid of raids, but that's because raids are too near and dear to the developers' hearts for them to ever let them go entirely.

[Dormie]

The guy who made the referenced video isnt very bright. WoW players comprise a society, and there are plenty of morons I encounter, in the real world who I could choose to berate, for being morons, people who don't understand the basics of walking on sidewalks, for example. I could correct them, but I decide it's not worth my time. It's the same thing in LFR. Anyone who's doing LFR needs something from it. Be it gear, or to practice a new class/spec, or even basic enjoyment. As long as you enter into an LFR, knowing that there are levels of PVE content above that, then you know you're not guaranteed to be playing with top tier players/toons. So yes, you can queue up for an LFR, get a BASIC understanding of the fight, and gear, that is bad, relative to the total of available PVE content.

Is WoW really like this? I don't want a player like you to be part of the community, if that's your attitude. I'll refrain from encouraging you to come back for WoD. There are BG's and then there are Rated BG's. There are duels outside of Org/SW and then there are arenas. There are different levels of play, some introductory, some not, for all different levels of players. If you're incapable of coming to terms with Blizzard's desire to make a game that more than one demographic of gamers can enjoy, and yes, make money, then by all means, don't come back to WoW.

But this ignores what end game is. You can't beat a game and have it be both difficult and easy at the same time. Or else beating it becomes meaningless. That's what they're trying to do.

[pallyopness]

I doubt very much the difference is as big as it was in Ulduar's hard modes.



Those changes you applaud do not make the fight sufficiently different, like they did in Ulduar.



Of course every mechanic must me done correctly - its damage is so much higher that it will result in death if you don't. Sure there are some extra abilities, but not nearly significant enough to warrant a visit after you've done LFR or Normal to death.

Also I would love your rationale between the difference in hard modes to now....I did Hardmode ulduar and I do heroics now....Ulduar was far less complex than any hard mode now. Ulduar hard modes were simply nothing in comparison to what is added now. So please with all your vast experience between the 2 heroic modes explain how ulduar was soooo much different. Because I can promise you that your words are baseless.

[Ronduwil]

But this ignores what end game is. You can't beat a game and have it be both difficult and easy at the same time. Or else beating it becomes meaningless. That's what they're trying to do.

Then why did people play Diablo II for so long? The single player version of the game was a faceroll, but people continued to multi-play it for years and years. How did the Civilization franchise last so long then? I mean, each version has various difficulty settings, and victory is practically assured on the lowest. You can even customize rules and enable cheat modes to skew the game in your favor. Yet, they're still putting out DLC content for Civ V.

[Sharuko]

Then why did people play Diablo II for so long? The single player version of the game was a faceroll, but people continued to multi-play it for years and years. How did the Civilization franchise last so long then? I mean, each version has various difficulty settings, and victory is practically assured on the lowest. You can even customize rules and enable cheat modes to skew the game in your favor. Yet, they're still putting out DLC content for Civ V.

About 50k people play Civ per Steam. I am sure the number is even less for Diablo 2.

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

[nekobaka]

About 50k people play Civ per Steam. I am sure the number is even less for Diablo 2.

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

Add on that WoW is a theme park game with various activities or content to say to suit different people. Those who play games like DII and Civ are liking it for that one type of content. It would be as if WoW was only raiding or solo questing. The idea that some people think just because they only like one aspect of the game that the whole game should cater to it is fairly self centered and yet that is what got us into the issue of the game being too soloists centered. For those that like the various activities good for you and I see no reason to hate someone who gets more out of such a game than I that suits such a wide variety of players. WoW is sold as an all in one package and make what you will with it.

[Theendgamelv3]

My server has them too. They require item level 530+.

Tell me, where oh where do you get a full set of gear that gets you to ilevel 530 if we can't get into the social guilds that require that ilevel to do flex? Cause I know of a place, but you seem to think you don't need it.

I repeat: Doing LFR IS NOT OPTIONAL as of now.

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Vanilla to BC, killing Nef was a lot easier too. Subs went up.

BC to Wrath, killing Illidan was a lot easier. Subs went up.

Wrath to Cata, killing Lich King was a lot easier. Subs went... Down? LFR is added towards the end, subs continue going down.

Cata to Mop, killing Deathwing is a lot easier. LFR still a thing. Subs still going down.

Your explanation doesn't make sense.

I am gonna blow your mind with how you can get into a pug at sub 530. It is a trick that a lot of people used back in the old days of WoW that is really making a comeback due to flex, make your own. YOU pug flex. People complain about there is no community, there is no social aspect anymore and yet Flex is a great thing to add back this social aspect and here you are refusing to use it by not making your own.

Going by your logic of subs I can do this
Vanilla to BC-Stormwind park was there and subs went up

BC to WOTLK-Stormwind park was still there and subs went up

WOTLK-Cata-Stormwind park was still there and subs went up

Cata-MoP-Stormwind park destroyed and subs went down.

MoP-WoD-Stormwind park still not fixed and subs still go down.

See how I can make it look like Stormwind park is the reason why subs went down?

[Gurbz]

But this ignores what end game is. You can't beat a game and have it be both difficult and easy at the same time. Or else beating it becomes meaningless. That's what they're trying to do.

Why then do most games have multiple difficulty settings? Easier difficulty=more accessibility. More accessibility=wider potential audience. Wider potential audience=more revenue for the developer. More revenue for the developer=higher amounts of content and/or support for the game.

The logic behind it is not overly complex. I am not sure why you are not seeing that.

[Ronduwil]

About 50k people play Civ per Steam. I am sure the number is even less for Diablo 2.

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

Play now. The game came out 4 years ago. According to http://www.vgchartz.com/game/43507/s...tion-v/Global/ they have almost 1.4 million units sold as of the end of 2013. In 2010, 10 years after its initial release, Diablo II was still in the top 10 PC games for 2010, according to http://www.vg247.com/2010/08/05/acti...t-967-million/

[Gurbz]

Add on that WoW is a theme park game with various activities or content to say to suit different people. Those who play games like DII and Civ are liking it for that one type of content. It would be as if WoW was only raiding or solo questing. The idea that some people think just because they only like one aspect of the game that the whole game should cater to it is fairly self centered and yet that is what got us into the issue of the game being too soloists centered.

But that is exactly what those calling for the content to be more difficult are asking for. Content that fits their playstyle to the exclusion of others. The idea that content locked behind a higher level of difficulty would lead to more motivation to improve is flawed because not everyone would be so motivated, nor is having the skill necessary to complete the more difficult content always the hindering factor.

The only other viable solution would be to separate the story portions of the game from raiding completely, as well as providing equivalent means of character advancement to those which raiding currently provides through means which do not involve raiding. Raids would simply exist to accommodate the playstyle of raiding. Otherwise the detrimental effects over time would outweigh the benefits of continuing to develop raid level content.

[Ronduwil]

Add on that WoW is a theme park game with various activities or content to say to suit different people. Those who play games like DII and Civ are liking it for that one type of content. It would be as if WoW was only raiding or solo questing. The idea that some people think just because they only like one aspect of the game that the whole game should cater to it is fairly self centered and yet that is what got us into the issue of the game being too soloists centered. For those that like the various activities good for you and I see no reason to hate someone who gets more out of such a game than I that suits such a wide variety of players. WoW is sold as an all in one package and make what you will with it.

That's kind of beside the point. DII and Civ were brought up as counterexamples to the idea that once players "win" a game they have no incentive to play it again or even try it on a higher difficulty. I was only saying that if that was the case games like that would never have sold, let alone spawned sequels.