UN climate chief: Communism is best to fight global warming

[Sargerasraider]

If you actually read a bit about the term HE made up, you'd know that the word communism is used in the wrong context today. Marx used it to refer to a social system where everyone is equal, money doesn't exist, and people collectively own the means of production.

Unfortunately, such a system -necessitates- oppression to maintain equality, unless human nature changes to the point that (1) greed stops existing and (2) people will not utilize such a system to become lazy and do nothing. Force will be required to mandate both equality and make sure that people are not taking advantage of the system (e.g. if there is no money, everyone is equal, and I can get everything I want, why work?). While Marx himself did not state that violent revolution was an absolute (Lenin did), Marx did realize that this was possible and likely.

A market economy with reasonable (we can argue about how much) safeguards and regulations has been empirically shown to be the best economic driver.

[Daelak]

Unfortunately, such a system -necessitates- oppression to maintain equality, unless human nature changes to the point that (1) greed stops existing and (2) people will not utilize such a system to become lazy and do nothing. Force will be required to mandate both equality and make sure that people are not taking advantage of the system (e.g. if there is no money, everyone is equal, and I can get everything I want, why work?). While Marx himself did not state that violent revolution was an absolute (Lenin did), Marx did realize that this was possible and likely.

A market economy with reasonable (we can argue about how much) safeguards and regulations has been empirically shown to be the best economic driver.

Of course, hence the reason why all industrialized countries are large mixed economies, for the ROI on public investment has shown to be incredibly fruitful for both private entities and the well-being of citizens.

No, a system such as communism -necessitates- cultural, informational, and a technological singularity to occur on Earth. We are living during the infancy of this, and humanity has some very large problems to find solutions to or we will fail as a species to the true problems the universe will throw at us.

[Wells]

I suddenly understand why the US has so much gun violence -_- one minute listening to that shit and I wanted to..

How can any reasonable person watch this show? Really?

They don't.

[Deleted]

You cannot equate the two, because communism, defined by Marx, said it would be a voluntary mutually agreed upon abolition of sovereignty lines, governments, and economic classes of people. Communism in theory is a classless, globally stateless society. There would be no "ruler". It is diametrically opposed to authoritarian states, it is the anti-state.

There's nothing voluntary about confiscating property from their rightful owners and it cannot be done by any other means than violence since it's extremely unlikely Joe will simply hand over his entire factory or whatever kind of business he has to the "collective".

In fact Marx wanted the workers to violently overthrow those "evil" capitalist masters. He was no pacifist.

Also if there is no government then anything goes. If I have enough guns I can force myself and my gang as the "new government". Anarchy is impossible, it creates a vacuum that in turn leads to a new government.

[Wikiy]

A market economy with reasonable (we can argue about how much) safeguards and regulations has been empirically shown to be the best economic driver.

I generally agree. I don't think a communist system is viable until society evolves into something like Star Trek. I just have issues with the word communism taken out of context and its meaning distorted and fabricated to be something it isn't.

[Kraenen]

There's nothing voluntary about confiscating property from their rightful owners and it cannot be done by any other means than violence since it's extremely unlikely Joe will simply hand over his entire factory or whatever kind of business he has to the "collective".

In fact Marx wanted the workers to violently overthrow those "evil" capitalist masters. He was no pacifist.

Also if there is no government then anything goes. If I have enough guns I can force myself and my gang as the "new government". Anarchy is impossible, it creates a vacuum that in turn leads to a new government.

are you replying to something you made up, or are you replying to the point that Daelak was responding to? (hint: read the post daelak was responding to).

[Endus]

There's nothing voluntary about confiscating property from their rightful owners and it cannot be done by any other means than violence since it's extremely unlikely Joe will simply hand over his entire factory or whatever kind of business he has to the "collective".

You don't have any idea what communism entails.

Joe wouldn't have the factory to "hand over" in the first place. The whole ideology is founded on the principle that nobody should "own" the means of production.

You're still arguing from an ideologically capitalist perspective, which means what you're talking about isn't communism.

In fact Marx wanted the workers to violently overthrow those "evil" capitalist masters. He was no pacifist.

No, he thought a revolution would be required to bring about the communist state. Revolutions do not have to be violent. See, for instance, the Industrial Revolution. His concept was that of a revolution of the entire people, which would have resulted in a near-instantaneous and bloodless victory.

Also if there is no government then anything goes. If I have enough guns I can force myself and my gang as the "new government". Anarchy is impossible, it creates a vacuum that in turn leads to a new government.

Again, you're presuming things you cannot begin with.

You can't just grab some guns and form a gang, because all of society is the gang that opposes you, in a communist state. Every single person. It isn't a state without order, it's a state with order brought about by each individual, rather than a sense of order imposed from above. A state where every individual has a personal responsibility to defend the state, because they are not subjects, they are the state.


None of that means communism is totally easy to pull off, but if you're going to criticise it, at least criticize actual communist ideology, not the McCarthyist boogeyman you've imagined.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I suddenly understand why the US has so much gun violence -_- one minute listening to that shit and I wanted to..

How can any reasonable person watch this show? Really?

This isn't even about communism at all.
It's about an entire country doing the right thing.
Meanwhile in the US: "Let's block good laws because Obama wants it!"

An uneducated obedient proletariat is a lot easier to control than people who actually think. When they're not really that knowledgeable, fear through hyperbole influences people far greater than hard facts and figures. People are ruled by their gut and emotions, and Fox is rather infamous for sourcing their information to blogs, books, and polls and not real studies. Polls are good for gauging public opinion, Fox wields them like they're good for proving something true or false.

[ashblond]

Unfortunately, such a system -necessitates- oppression to maintain equality, unless human nature changes to the point that (1) greed stops existing and (2) people will not utilize such a system to become lazy and do nothing. Force will be required to mandate both equality and make sure that people are not taking advantage of the system (e.g. if there is no money, everyone is equal, and I can get everything I want, why work?). While Marx himself did not state that violent revolution was an absolute (Lenin did), Marx did realize that this was possible and likely.

A market economy with reasonable (we can argue about how much) safeguards and regulations has been empirically shown to be the best economic driver.

Very interesting points.

If we look at today's economy, or what we called capitalist economy, the development of technology will inevitably force some people out of work from traditional industries.

A factory used to need 100 workers 10 years ago, only needs 10 workers today, because they have new production line and machines now. Those 90 people become jobless not because they are lazy, but because they are laid off. But the total outcome of the factory is not decreased because of less worker, but in fact increases due to new technology.

In a pure liberal capitalist economy, those 90 jobless workers will die from poverty. And the profit of the factory will go to the factory owner and the remaining 10 workers. Thus, the rich becomes richer and richer, and the poor becomes poorer and poorer.

This is the background that how communism emerged in Karl Marx's time, which was a primitive liberal capitalist era, because he saw so much inequality in different social classes/groups. And the idea is to divide the society's total wealth between each citizen, even though these 90 workers are not working.

This needs government plan and central control, because no individual person or company can do it. And this is indeed adopted by most countries today, which is called Social Security. We don't watch people die from poverty or disease, just because they are unemployed or have no money. Most capitalist countries have realized that pure liberal capitalist economy won't work, or lets say, not humane.

The goal of communism is very noble - each citizen can share part of the society's total wealth, people get what they need and the elimination of different social classes. But these requires a conditions, that human society has abundant productivity and high level of economy. That is why Karl Marx always thought communist revolution should happen first in highly industrialized countries, not poor third world countries.

None of the so called "communist countries" in 20th century represents the true communist ideas, simply because we are not in that stage yet. One day, when human technology and productivity is high enough, people can get what they need, and work only for pleasure and self development, we may have true communism.