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  1. #141
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    Only if my non-theist mains can get a "slept in" buff the moment I log on Sundays while the theists have to sit in the Stormwind cathedral (or where ever) for an hour to obtain their buff. To be fair though the theist buff can last a bit longer since they had to wait for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ziharkk View Post
    Sounds good in theory, but it'll be a rep grind or something meaningless.
    *bites tongue*
    Last edited by OzoAndIndi; 2014-01-19 at 01:13 AM.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarac View Post
    Bringing in "real" religion to any form of entertainment is always a bad idea.
    You PC people are always hilariously crass.

    Why should the imagery and mythos of religions be totally avoided because someone gets uncomfortable?

    I love the mythology of the bible, and I wish it was explored more and in greater detail in many forms of books, films and video games. The same goes for Hinduism, that quite frankly is probably the most balls to the wall badass religion ever and is pretty much a comic book over 10,000 years old.
    "What do you seek within the mountain?"

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziharkk View Post
    Pretty much nailed it. MMO-C's certainly the place for neckbeard atheists to showcase their pseudo-intellectualism, but this type of in-game implementation would bring out the annoying fiery sycophants as well.

    Sounds good in theory, but it'll be a rep grind or something meaningless. I mean, sure a vanity rep grind for neat little items might not be too bad, but I think I'd rather them work on different, more engaging content.
    I love how the word atheist has become synonymous with "psuedo intellectual", "fedora" and "neckbeard". It's the same as claiming all Priests are peadophiles or all muslims are terrorists.

    It's a stupid stereotype that speaks more about the person saying it than the person they're addressing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    You PC people are always hilariously crass.

    Why should the imagery and mythos of religions be totally avoided because someone gets uncomfortable?

    I love the mythology of the bible, and I wish it was explored more and in greater detail in many forms of books, films and video games. The same goes for Hinduism, that quite frankly is probably the most balls to the wall badass religion ever and is pretty much a comic book over 10,000 years old.
    Because it inevitably equals bad press and brings in debate and pressure on Blizzard that they completely don't want.

    This thread is proof enough of that.

  4. #144
    If you treat the "religion" as a faction, it's actually not that bad.

    You could have amazing class quests.
    An epic quest line that culminates in armor tied to the religion.
    You could get upgraded spell effects.
    Certain bonus like special gems, enchants, or glyphs - maybe something that adds bonus damage to undead/demons if you're part of the Light
    It could allow cross faction interaction.

    We already have something like this with the Moonglade and druid neutrality. This would be a broader expansion of it.

  5. #145
    I am Murloc! The Fiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    I love how the word atheist has become synonymous with "psuedo intellectual", "fedora" and "neckbeard". It's the same as claiming all Priests are peadophiles or all muslims are terrorists.

    It's a stupid stereotype that speaks more about the person saying it than the person they're addressing.

    Because it inevitably equals bad press and brings in debate and pressure on Blizzard that they completely don't want.

    This thread is proof enough of that.
    Atheist has become a byword for a new-wave pesudo-intellectual because that is who mostly make up the new wave era of atheists.

    Teenagers and young adults who maybe were raised with overprotective christian parents who think all religion and the idea of some form of spirituality as an oppressive tool. This causes them to lash out against the evils of "Religion"

    In reality, the same people in this thread are doing exactly that, and in turn proving how close minded and uncultured they are.

    because if Atheism doesn't let you enjoy fantasy worlds with mighty gods and cataclysmic demons, it's really really not worth it.
    "What do you seek within the mountain?"

  6. #146
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    You don't quite scope what gods are in DnD do you?

    They're literal gods. They created the world mortals live in, they live in the Astral plane. Godhood is a real thing. an athiest in DnD has to be extremely stupid, or simply have another word for god.

    But that word is wrong, because they're fucking gods!
    Depends on which setting you play in. If you just play core rule sets, that is mostly true. However Mortals can become deities, and avatars of deities. In such a setting an Atheist as described in our vocabulary can not actually exist. However extreme Agnostics can, and they should not be punished. If you read and know your D&D history all of the Creation Gods are actually the Game Designers. They based the deity descriptions on religions like Buddhism which would not be as offended by a polytheistic pantheon. (however they still god sued by using what they though was public domain works. p.s. I have the first publishing of that book.)

    As a game world designer who is close to publishing my own first core book, I can tell you it is up to the individual DMs how the pantheon of deities work in any given world. As a DM who runs faith as a part of the gameplay I make sure to tell the players how faith works. I do not prohibit creative gameplay, and I do not punish people for unique ideas.

    P.S. Just before my game night started My cat sat on the holy-book.



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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    You don't build a character in MMOs, you build an Avatar. An aspect of stats that interacts with enemies by killing them, just like any video game.

    Mass effect doesn't have you build a character, it has you play a premade character using preset ideas and choices. You simply put the parts together to make one of very few characters you can assemble.
    Now you are just trolling, yes you pick the parts of the background, but you still pick it. And it does effect the story depending on the choices made, and every choice you make in game follows you to the next game. So even without writing a thing you build a character, and yes it is an Avatar. But I think you are just trolling to be obtuse at this point.

  7. #147
    I am Murloc! The Fiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    Depends on which setting you play in. If you just play core rule sets, that is mostly true. However Mortals can become deities, and avatars of deities. In such a setting an Atheist as described in our vocabulary can not actually exist. However extreme Agnostics can, and they should not be punished. If you read and know your D&D history all of the Creation Gods are actually the Game Designers. They based the deity descriptions on religions like Buddhism which would not be as offended by a polytheistic pantheon. (however they still god sued by using what they though was public domain works. p.s. I have the first publishing of that book.)
    In DnD Core, Beings like Kord and Moradin are gods. This is a simple fact. Now we can turn the thing around in DnD and ask ourselves.

    What is a God in DnD?

    Well simply it's an immortal being who has powerful ties with either the Infernal or Astral planes, often having a ruling domain within. You can quite easily call them immortals or something, but the canon word for them, is gods.

    They are gods. Gods exist as supreme divine beings because they exist in divine ( or infernal ) places as aspects born from fundamental forces of the DnD universe.

    Now, they're not like the Abrahamic god. but they're gods none-the less.

    And ANYONE in the DND core universe who argues this, are either very dumb, or very abstract.

    hence why I gave him a -4 int and -4 wisdom... because he was traveling with a Paladin of Moradin.
    "What do you seek within the mountain?"

  8. #148
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    You PC people are always hilariously crass.

    Why should the imagery and mythos of religions be totally avoided because someone gets uncomfortable?

    I love the mythology of the bible, and I wish it was explored more and in greater detail in many forms of books, films and video games. The same goes for Hinduism, that quite frankly is probably the most balls to the wall badass religion ever and is pretty much a comic book over 10,000 years old.
    You see I feel the same way about real world religions. As such the world I am building has many parallels. Although since the world is based on an alternate reality of Earth, the deities in that world are descended from the first intelligent race to discover arcane physics.

  9. #149
    I am Murloc! The Fiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    Now you are just trolling, yes you pick the parts of the background, but you still pick it. And it does effect the story depending on the choices made, and every choice you make in game follows you to the next game. So even without writing a thing you build a character, and yes it is an Avatar. But I think you are just trolling to be obtuse at this point.
    No I am just saying the utmost truth of actual RPG games. You don't "create" anything in them, you use choices already rendered out for you, already designed and already prepared.

    if you make a choice in Mass Effect, it has a premade outcome, nothing you do will grossly effect the story. The reapers will still come, you will still have to fight them, you will have one of 4 endings eventually. Nothing changes, merely ticks in boxes.

    The only games that let you go beyond this were games like NWN, where you could generate your own content and edit the quests you wanted to do.
    "What do you seek within the mountain?"

  10. #150
    While I disagree with the people saying it would be controversial or cause trouble/dramas, i mean after all lots of games have different deities and gods and mythologies and such in them and no one ever gets butt hurt about that aside from those insane real world religious nut groups that think any work of fiction mentioning another god as evil and to be banned from knowledge, which that type doesn't play WOW in the first place so it really doesn't matter.

    However, I do think it's kind of a bad idea. There's just not enough there to make much use out of it. Elune is mentioned now and then, as is the light, but theres no real lore meat related to any of it. It's all left kind of ambiguous, deliberately I guess. Fleshing it out and giving rewards and advantages would kind of take away from that mystery.

    Also, you'd be limited. if you were tauren, you'd basically have to follow the earth mother, because all tauren do. So you'd either be someone who does the rep grind and gets the benefits, or you'd be someone who doesn't do the rep grind and doesn't get the benefits. There really wouldn't be much choice in the matter, it would basically boil down to optional/additional racial abilities and theres already enough problems trying to balance the racials in game currently.

    Also, i'm kind of opposed to the idea of getting power from and/or needing a deity's help in WOW to get anything done. It's ok for priests and paladins and whatever as that is where they draw their powers from, but having additional benefits coming from some kind of worship just feels like crap to me.

    Thats my two cents anyway.
    I like ponies and I really don't care what you have to say about that.

  11. #151
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    In DnD Core, Beings like Kord and Moradin are gods. This is a simple fact. Now we can turn the thing around in DnD and ask ourselves.

    What is a God in DnD?

    Well simply it's an immortal being who has powerful ties with either the Infernal or Astral planes, often having a ruling domain within. You can quite easily call them immortals or something, but the canon word for them, is gods.

    They are gods. Gods exist as supreme divine beings because they exist in divine ( or infernal ) places as aspects born from fundamental forces of the DnD universe.

    Now, they're not like the Abrahamic god. but they're gods none-the less.


    And ANYONE in the DND core universe who argues this, are either very dumb, or very abstract.

    hence why I gave him a -4 int and -4 wisdom... because he was traveling with a Paladin of Moradin.

    You see, this penalty is not something I would do, I would tell them (bold section). And inform them they are a character in a world where you can have a beer with a god, and they know it. If you want to play a realist intellectual type character, they would acknowledge to power of gods, and realize that they are immortal beings, and it is possible to become such a being. As such they are not devoted to any god, and willfully choose to become a god themselves in the future or die trying. That is what it means to be an Atheist Player Character in a fantasy world. Now you can have tribes of (any monster race ie Goblins) which never heard of gods, but that would be different, and would be something a DM could throw at a party with a highly religious character.

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    You see, this penalty is not something I would do, I would tell them (bold section). And inform them they are a character in a world where you can have a beer with a god, and they know it. If you want to play a realist intellectual type character, they would acknowledge to power of gods, and realize that they are immortal beings, and it is possible to become such a being. As such they are not devoted to any god, and willfully choose to become a god themselves in the future or die trying. That is what it means to be an Atheist Player Character in a fantasy world. Now you can have tribes of (any monster race ie Goblins) which never heard of gods, but that would be different, and would be something a DM could throw at a party with a highly religious character.
    Perhaps I used the example with a lack of context.

    My player character was pretty much your typical anti-thiest. Bulbus, greasy, hairy and clad in a fedora and a trenchcoat with sneakers.

    I told him all of this above, I told him gods are not abstract concepts or ideals. They are real creatures, living, breathing with emotions and impacts upon the world.

    He refused this, he actively said "I don't want my character to believe in the gods. Gods are not real to me, they won't be real to my character"

    Needless to say, the penalty demands it if his character is going to be ignorant as he is.
    "What do you seek within the mountain?"

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Atheist has become a byword for a new-wave pesudo-intellectual because that is who mostly make up the new wave era of atheists.

    Teenagers and young adults who maybe were raised with overprotective christian parents who think all religion and the idea of some form of spirituality as an oppressive tool. This causes them to lash out against the evils of "Religion"

    In reality, the same people in this thread are doing exactly that, and in turn proving how close minded and uncultured they are.

    because if Atheism doesn't let you enjoy fantasy worlds with mighty gods and cataclysmic demons, it's really really not worth it.
    Whilst some do use it as a tool to "rebel" or attempt to appear intelligent, to tar all with the same brush is just ridiculous. Lots of young people, particularly in the UK do not subscribe to religion, and I don't think that's a bad thing.

    I'm of the opinion that children shouldn't be pushed into a religion, because it's "choosing" what they should believe, for example if most Christians were brought up by Muslims, odds are they'd be a Muslim now. I don't find it right that a child's spirituality is chosen for them as a child.

    I also note that I don't find spirituality a bad thing, but to claim it can't be used as a massive tool to control and oppress is just dishonest.

    Anyway, I feel this thread is majorly off topic :P

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    Whilst some do use it as a tool to "rebel" or attempt to appear intelligent, to tar all with the same brush is just ridiculous. Lots of young people, particularly in the UK do not subscribe to religion, and I don't think that's a bad thing.

    I'm of the opinion that children shouldn't be pushed into a religion, because it's "choosing" what they should believe, for example if most Christians were brought up by Muslims, odds are they'd be a Muslim now. I don't find it right that a child's spirituality is chosen for them as a child.

    I also note that I don't find spirituality a bad thing, but to claim it can't be used as a massive tool to control and oppress is just dishonest.

    Anyway, I feel this thread is majorly off topic :P
    Perhaps off topic, but the simple fact is alot of people who tout the banner of Atheism, are really just Anti-theists.
    "What do you seek within the mountain?"

  15. #155
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    No I am just saying the utmost truth of actual RPG games. You don't "create" anything in them, you use choices already rendered out for you, already designed and already prepared.

    if you make a choice in Mass Effect, it has a premade outcome, nothing you do will grossly effect the story. The reapers will still come, you will still have to fight them, you will have one of 4 endings eventually. Nothing changes, merely ticks in boxes.

    The only games that let you go beyond this were games like NWN, where you could generate your own content and edit the quests you wanted to do.
    Actually in many MMOs you have an optional space to put Background histories of your Character. City of Heroes, and Champions are classic examples.

    Most MMORPGs have a space to write up a full character backstory that is observable to every player in game. WOW does not have this feature, however there are several popular addons which give this function to WOW.

    Mass Effect which is mostly a solo RPG has no need to put in a character detail writeup, but they did include 100% customizable avatars, and several options as to the origin of your character. The only truly fixed point was the last name, so the games could have Voice acting that flowed nicely. Most solo RPGs never even give the player background options, however Bioware loves to include that system.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    No I am just saying the utmost truth of actual RPG games. You don't "create" anything in them, you use choices already rendered out for you, already designed and already prepared.

    if you make a choice in Mass Effect, it has a premade outcome, nothing you do will grossly effect the story. The reapers will still come, you will still have to fight them, you will have one of 4 endings eventually. Nothing changes, merely ticks in boxes.

    The only games that let you go beyond this were games like NWN, where you could generate your own content and edit the quests you wanted to do.
    This is why I think you are just trolling, you say no never, then give a classic example of why you are not correct. I should point out VTM bloodlines had that same system, and many other RPGs tied to actual PnP games had systems for DMs to create games.

    Hell Bioware, Cryptic and many other games seem to always try and include GM modding tools.

  16. #156
    Sounds like communism, good in theory, but would lead to a shitstorm. 0/10

    This one time at Brand Camp, I got Singed.

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    Mass Effect which is mostly a solo RPG has no need to put in a character detail writeup, but they did include 100% customizable avatars, and several options as to the origin of your character. The only truly fixed point was the last name, so the games could have Voice acting that flowed nicely. Most solo RPGs never even give the player background options, however Bioware loves to include that system.
    Most modern RPGs usually run with a protagonist. Witcher, Dragon Age, Even Dragon's Dogma has your past set up for you.

    I am not against a set timeline and set events in a game, they're pretty much mandatory, but I won't bring in an illusion that they're open in the slightest beyond cosmetic and entirely tertiary parts of the games world itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    This is why I think you are just trolling, you say no never, then give a classic example of why you are not correct. I should point out VTM bloodlines had that same system, and many other RPGs tied to actual PnP games had systems for DMs to create games.

    Hell Bioware, Cryptic and many other games seem to always try and include GM modding tools.
    Shall I point out the fact that I have been saying MOST Modern RPGs have little actual creation among them? My first sentence was hyperbole, perhaps.

    But no Bioware game of modern era has ever had any ability to control the true outcome of the game.
    "What do you seek within the mountain?"

  18. #158
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dasani View Post
    While I disagree with the people saying it would be controversial or cause trouble/dramas,...
    personally I think they are reacting to the word "Religion" when they seem to miss that a religion is any faith that has a ritual. ie going to church is a ritual, so if you have a faith in a deity and go to a building to practice that faith it is a religion. These mechanics are already in game, or they were in game and removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Most modern RPGs usually run with a protagonist. Witcher, Dragon Age, Even Dragon's Dogma has your past set up for you.

    I am not against a set timeline and set events in a game, they're pretty much mandatory, but I won't bring in an illusion that they're open in the slightest beyond cosmetic and entirely tertiary parts of the games world itself.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Shall I point out the fact that I have been saying MOST Modern RPGs have little actual creation among them? My first sentence was hyperbole, perhaps.

    But no Bioware game of modern era has ever had any ability to control the true outcome of the game.
    Just like in a D&D game as the DM I set the basic possible out comes and let the players think they have control of what happens in game. Video games have to be written, Mass Effect is the best example of a game that tried really hard to not feel the story rails, but in the end it is still a video game. WOW and many MMOs have no ending so, they can give you more freedom to be creative.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    Just like in a D&D game as the DM I set the basic possible out comes and let the players think they have control of what happens in game. Video games have to be written, Mass Effect is the best example of a game that tried really hard to not feel the story rails, but in the end it is still a video game. WOW and many MMOs have no ending so, they can give you more freedom to be creative.
    As a DM I make a setting, describe it, give them plot hooks and allow them to do whatever the fuck they want. It's a PnP anything can happen.

    I really wish I could have your suspension of disbelief, but Mass Effect felt 100% on rails. You had 4, maybe 6 choices per interaction. The story often followed along the preset path despite what you did and the only different thing really was what characters you did or did not interact with.

    The basic storyline was so stiff and on rails it could have been narrated by Ringo Star.
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  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Most modern RPGs usually run with a protagonist. Witcher, Dragon Age, Even Dragon's Dogma has your past set up for you.

    I am not against a set timeline and set events in a game, they're pretty much mandatory, but I won't bring in an illusion that they're open in the slightest beyond cosmetic and entirely tertiary parts of the games world itself.
    Which is why I am only bringing up MMOs, since Single player RPGs are a single story sometimes they give personalized back-stories, ie Dragon Age: Origins, your race and class was tied to a back-story, which was really a nice touch, part of why I think DA2 failed, you didn't have the personalized origin.

    in DA:O they only had a limited number of back-stories, but they had a few and that was a good thing. People want more than skill points sometimes.

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