View Poll Results: Would you run LFR if there was no loot to be obtained?

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1293. This poll is closed
  • No

    830 64.19%
  • Yes

    73 5.65%
  • Only once!

    390 30.16%
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  1. #401
    Warchief Arcanimus's Avatar
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    I retract my previous "No" response. I'd do it on alts to grief people into not doing it so Blizzard removes it.
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  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanimus View Post
    I retract my previous "No" response. I'd do it on alts to grief people into not doing it so Blizzard removes it.
    And people wonder why LFR is so bad. Thank you for the honesty. Yes, lets get Blizzard to remove anything you hate in the game shall we by ruin the experience for other people.

    Clearly your enjoyment and your $15 per month is more important than the other millions out there that also play the game.

  3. #403
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    I'd do it but it would be a once and done thing which would be the case for most if not all players who would use it. Then it would be a useless feature and Blizzard would end up getting rid of it so this would be a very bad idea and it wouldn't make much sense to do this in the first place.
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  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    In mentioning of would someone play if their end game was crippled what do you say to those who liked five mans seeing their end game crippled in order to make LFR popular?
    There is a difference here. No one asked for dungeons to be removed. That was Blizzard's decision to remove it and replace it with LFR. The LFR people had no say in their removal.

    While at the moment, it is the regular and heroic raiders asking for LFR removal, even when LFR has no impact on their gameplay.

    LFR is bad at the moment partly because there are people there to grief others simply because of their hatred of it. They just cannot leave it alone because of their belief that people not as good as them should be allowed to raid and get the same color gear as them.

    To say dungeons are easier is subjective. Remember ICC PoS and more specially HoR? How many tanks baled when they see that coming? Or ZA and ZG? How complaints on how hard they were? Or did you only remember EoT heroics? They were easy because Blizzard changed it so it was easy and people could just farm it with little though.

  5. #405
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Geminiwolf View Post
    I'd do it but it would be a once and done thing which would be the case for most if not all players who would use it. Then it would be a useless feature and Blizzard would end up getting rid of it so this would be a very bad idea and it wouldn't make much sense to do this in the first place.
    No it wouldn't be useless feature, it would be working just like they are apparently now designing it to do. You don't go to a tourist ride every day when you go to a new city, you go there once and done. Then when you go to a new city, you can do it once again. It allows you to see the place and art and whatnot, and then you can decide if you want to start raiding it with a proper group, hopefully leading you to a guild and making friends so you will stay subbed. If they can get one player to start raiding properly like this, it's worth losing 3-5 players who play only LFR and keep unsubbing once in a while as they have no social pressure to keep logging on. Sorry for the guys who really love LFR, but gutting it to a tourist mode is good for the game, and good for the business.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by risingforce View Post
    Would you raid Normal if they took away the loot? Silly poll.

    The LFR difficulty entertains a lot of people, for many reasons, leave it be.
    The implications of gear being removed from any difficulty with progression would cause significant problems.

    LFR doesn't have progression unless you count stacking Determination.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    The implications of gear being removed from any difficulty with progression would cause significant problems.

    LFR doesn't have progression unless you count stacking Determination.
    So change the normal and heroic to not drop loot and not requires better gear for progression. Then it just relies on skills all the way through. A better way to distinguish yourself.

  8. #408
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    Only once. I don't raid anymore (I just don't have the time/lifestyle to allow me to have consistent play times). So I'd do it to see the stuff, and then won't go back.
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  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by kinneer View Post
    So change the normal and heroic to not drop loot and not requires better gear for progression. Then it just relies on skills all the way through. A better way to distinguish yourself.
    That's not the issue. The way progression is built right now allows guilds who raid 6 hours a week to full clear.

    If every fight was a grueling battle with a tight enrage and many wipes each week, guilds would struggle to clear in the lockout. Gear helps nerf bosses you have already completed once so you can get to your progression boss sooner, rather than each week wiping multiple times on each boss, which would be a ton of time. Right now I can clear 10/14 in one night, 3 hours. If we still had the difficulty on some fights we had when we first started, we would probably end like 5/14. Gear progression is a huge part of raiding not taking 50 hours a week, although some still believe that.

    Kill a boss, get some upgrades, get stuck on the next boss, raid time ends. Next week with the upgrades first boss is easier, more time to work on the second one.

  10. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geish View Post
    No it wouldn't be useless feature, it would be working just like they are apparently now designing it to do. You don't go to a tourist ride every day when you go to a new city, you go there once and done. Then when you go to a new city, you can do it once again. It allows you to see the place and art and whatnot, and then you can decide if you want to start raiding it with a proper group, hopefully leading you to a guild and making friends so you will stay subbed. If they can get one player to start raiding properly like this, it's worth losing 3-5 players who play only LFR and keep unsubbing once in a while as they have no social pressure to keep logging on. Sorry for the guys who really love LFR, but gutting it to a tourist mode is good for the game, and good for the business.
    Because Dragon Soul every tier is good for the game, I suppose. Or do you people not remember the lead raid dev specifically saying LFR's high participation saved his department's budget from bean counters looking at raiding's historically-low participation and giving it an equivalent budget in Cata?

    Actually, do that. Kill raiding, pour the massive funds that go into raiding into content for casual players. Blizzard could afford to lose every single narcissistic know-it-all hardcore on the planet and it'd hardly put a dent in their quarterly earnings, looking at the Normal and Heroic completion rates posted for SoO.
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  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Because Dragon Soul every tier is good for the game, I suppose. Or do you people not remember the lead raid dev specifically saying LFR's high participation saved his department's budget from bean counters looking at raiding's historically-low participation and giving it an equivalent budget in Cata?

    Actually, do that. Kill raiding, pour the massive funds that go into raiding into content for casual players. Blizzard could afford to lose every single narcissistic know-it-all hardcore on the planet and it'd hardly put a dent in their quarterly earnings, looking at the Normal and Heroic completion rates posted for SoO.
    Says the narcissistic know it all.

    Flex solves the same issue and has helped raiding use go up. I don't really see anybody asking for the removal of Flex right now. LFR does nothing more for causes than Flex does, LFR just helps scrubs get gear beyond what they are capable of.


    [please no personal attacks]
    Last edited by Tziva; 2014-01-20 at 05:28 PM.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    That's not the issue. The way progression is built right now allows guilds who raid 6 hours a week to full clear.

    If every fight was a grueling battle with a tight enrage and many wipes each week, guilds would struggle to clear in the lockout. Gear helps nerf bosses you have already completed once so you can get to your progression boss sooner, rather than each week wiping multiple times on each boss, which would be a ton of time. Right now I can clear 10/14 in one night, 3 hours. If we still had the difficulty on some fights we had when we first started, we would probably end like 5/14. Gear progression is a huge part of raiding not taking 50 hours a week, although some still believe that.

    Kill a boss, get some upgrades, get stuck on the next boss, raid time ends. Next week with the upgrades first boss is easier, more time to work on the second one.
    So why is this okay for flex, normal and heroic but not LFR? I though you guys wanted a challenge, to show how good you are, yet here you are championing that you require gear to help you nerf bosses that you have already beaten.

    So, lets ask the question again, would you raid again and again if you already beaten once and there were no loot to collect?

  13. #413
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Says the narcissistic know it all.
    Who, Ion? The guy who flat-out said LFR saved his department?

    Oh, right, you're talking about me. Sorry that I base my opinions on evidence rather than feeling upset that a game with a player base in the millions no longer caters specifically to a single-digit percentage of its player base.

    Flex solves the same issue and has helped raiding use go up. I don't really see anybody asking for the removal of Flex right now. LFR does nothing more for causes than Flex does, LFR just helps scrubs get gear beyond what they are capable of.
    Looking at Siege, LFR still has a much higher participation rate than Flex, by at least half. Moreover, I've peeked at Trade on five different servers and on all of them, Flex pugs are asking for Normal-mode item levels. That locks out players LFR lets in due to item level alone.

    But, yes. LFR is easy. Very much so. It also isn't drawing on pools of players who would otherwise do higher difficulties--it primarily draws on a pool of players who never bothered raiding prior to 4.3. That's how the raid team was able to justify the budget needed for raids like the ones in MoP, because now 60% of the players who hit level cap are going in there and getting on the gear treadmill instead of 5-20% (giving very generous estimates here so you won't sit there lawyering at semantics like so many other people do).
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  14. #414
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Because Dragon Soul every tier is good for the game, I suppose. Or do you people not remember the lead raid dev specifically saying LFR's high participation saved his department's budget from bean counters looking at raiding's historically-low participation and giving it an equivalent budget in Cata?

    Actually, do that. Kill raiding, pour the massive funds that go into raiding into content for casual players. Blizzard could afford to lose every single narcissistic know-it-all hardcore on the planet and it'd hardly put a dent in their quarterly earnings, looking at the Normal and Heroic completion rates posted for SoO.
    I already agreed with you pages ago, that they should cut the raid teams budget no matter what, atleast artists. Molten Core was fine as a raid dungeon, just needed better bosses, and you don't need big art budget to come up with fun bosses.

    But apparently they are going to just up all the other teams budget, as they have said that they are gonna offer alternative end game for casuals when LFR goes tourist mode.

    Top raiders are still the trend setters and the only group besides top pvp players to whom the designers go directly to ask opinions and advice. Losing this group would have far larger multiplicative effect, that would ultimately hurt the Blizzard brand itself, than their relatively small size might have you believe. It's like Apple losing the support of tech geeks (trend setters of consumer electronics). Even though 99% of people who have apple products are not tech geeks, it might destroy the company like happened to Nokia.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Looking at Siege, LFR still has a much higher participation rate than Flex, by at least half.
    With that however, many people who participate in Flex, Normal or even Heroic likely killed bosses in LFR as well, skewing that data. Because it doesn't dictate participation but rather kills, it is hard to determine if that participation rate is actually higher or not. Raid content is probably equally (if not more) important to those single-digit players as it is to the entire collective that does LFR. In order words, active participation amongst normal and heroic raiders is significantly higher, week to week and month to month, than that of your average LFR player most likely.

    Even so, the argument is about gear and realistically, the main problem with LFR is A) normal raiders feeling the need to run LFR at all; and B) LFR rewarding inflated item level gear that isn't even remotely necessary to down said content with zero discrimination (items can and are rewarded to players who make next to no effort, AFK, et cetera).

  16. #416
    After spending a bit looking I am assuming this is the source you are talking about and placing on top for visibility.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...he-Daily-Blink
    Originally Posted by Ion Hazzikostas
    LFR justifies the creation of more raid content when millions of players are able to see content. Only a few thousand people actually saw Kel'thuzad, but millions saw Deathwing. The reason Mists of Pandaria is starting with 18 bosses and adding larger raid tiers than we have had previously is because many players are going to see the raids through LFR.
    If this is what you are referring to then at no point has he said anything about bean counters and historically low numbers which is blatantly false by itself or the team needing to be saved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Because Dragon Soul every tier is good for the game, I suppose. Or do you people not remember the lead raid dev specifically saying LFR's high participation saved his department's budget from bean counters looking at raiding's historically-low participation and giving it an equivalent budget in Cata?

    Actually, do that. Kill raiding, pour the massive funds that go into raiding into content for casual players. Blizzard could afford to lose every single narcissistic know-it-all hardcore on the planet and it'd hardly put a dent in their quarterly earnings, looking at the Normal and Heroic completion rates posted for SoO.
    I would like to see a source on that as I have not seen such a claim from him saying it saved the development budget from bean counters. Blizzard was struggling all over in Cata to not only put out content but content that lasted months on end. All the non-raid content was heavily gutted in grinds from feedback from "casuals" in WotLK. Certainly didnt bold well for the no-lifers that call themselves casuals as a crutch to hide behind and these players feed back came fruit to the launch of MoP.

    What LFR did provide was a means for the developers to provide that long term grind while shoving everyone into the same content including those who did not like raiding and liked five mans. This in turn allowed Blizzard to gut resources from five mans and shove it into raids.

    Not every hardcore is a raider nor is every raider a hardcore just as not every no lifer is a raider and being a raider doesnt make you a no lifer. The casuals in WoW do not share the same likes and dislikes in the game. The "majority" doesnt want the same thing, it is just a bull shit crutch argument players use to fulfill their own self centered ideals. WoW caters to a wide variety of players and Blizzards attempts to shove players into the same content has failed including that of LFR. The targeted audience of LFR did not ask for LFR, they asked for raiding alternatives. Instead they got shoved into LFR and saw alternative gearing paths gutted in rewards to the complete removal of VP gear which hurt every PVE player.

    Sadly it took a whole expansion for the developers to realize no mater how hard they push for LFR to happen as the long term grind replacement for players who had no interests in raiding just wasnt going to happen. So hopefully WoD will bring the alternatives and options that players have been asking for in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Who, Ion? The guy who flat-out said LFR saved his department?

    Oh, right, you're talking about me. Sorry that I base my opinions on evidence rather than feeling upset that a game with a player base in the millions no longer caters specifically to a single-digit percentage of its player base.
    So yeah a source would be good because I dont remember him saying it the way you seem to be interpreting it. Also Ion is the lead encounter designer which covers more than just raids. The game also did not solely cater to raiders, it has always had a variety of content for players with different interests. Raiding was just the pinnacle of challenging group based PVE content and by nature of design requires a lot of resources compared to features like scenarios which are comparatively inexpensive to produce. If at any point WoW has ever focused so heavily on raid or die it would be with MoP and LFR. Far more potential alternatives to raiding was introduced in MoP yet pale in rewards and long term progression to LFR. Even Cata had less of a gap between raiders and raiding alternatives.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2014-01-21 at 06:51 AM. Reason: Finding of source

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Monarken View Post
    Would you?...
    sure. why not? it doesn't drop any useful gear now.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Why should we accept something up to change? Blizzard has promised other things would never happen and they did.

    Don't like it? Don't be in the thread. When LFR stops having any incentive for raiders and their alts to be there, then people wont complain as much.
    the only people who complain about it, are the ones who self righteously claim they "dont do it anyway".

    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Don't like it? Don't be in the thread.
    really?
    REALLY?

    my whole opinion of this thread is actually summed up on the early pages when the reverse was suggested. would you still do heroic if it did not reward gear? hell no you wouldnt.

    end of story

  19. #419
    This is kind of a stupid question. It's basically Would you run after an empty string in front of your face if you were hungry? No of course you wouldn't. You'd go find some food. The point of MMOs are to Progress. Without progression or 'the carrot on the stick', who the fuck is going to play the game? This is a very dumb question that cuts out the basics of what an MMO is. I hate LFR as much as the next person but it still needs to drop loot as do all other difficulties.

  20. #420
    The Lightbringer vian's Avatar
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    No.

    Remove LFR, introduce "Raid Viewer" - A dumbed down version (think normal scenarios) of the current LFR with no loot.
    Go back to to the olden days and add more challenging 5man heroics with epic rewards.
    Last edited by vian; 2014-01-22 at 05:50 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by bizzy View Post
    yeh but lava is just very hot water

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