End game exchange

[Thandorr]

then it seems the better comparison should be.. Isle of Thunder, and Timeless Isle came at the expense of new dungeons, and remove LFR from the discussion altogether?

4.3 had no islandy type thing, but it did have 3 dungeons (that got old really quickly) as well as LFR difficulty of DS

5.0 had no island, but it was the beginning of the expansion so no catch up was needed. had several dungeons to gear from and LFR difficulty of the raids

5.2 had the Isle of Thunder to gear from, no dungeons, but had LFR difficulty or ToT

5.4 had Timeless Isle to gear from, no dungeons, but had LFR difficulty of SoO

You may be right! I think could possibly be a better comparison. Anyone have thoughts on this?

[Throne]

As of right now, the 'epicness' and scale of content gets smaller as things get more difficult, which is backwards.
LFR - easy - 25 players
5-man heroics - easy - 5 players
raids - challenge - (mostly) 10 players (flex may help, and some 25 man guilds exist but most are 10)
challenge mode - challenge - 5 players

Vanilla through Cata content got harder pretty much as content got bigger (obvious exception is old content like: lvl80 25Naxx was easier than 10ICC). But with LFR it screws that whole picture up.

A possible is fix to have LFR be 10 player, and also make LFR not available for the current tier. Although I'd be easier to scrap the whole thing anyways.

[Thandorr]

A possible is fix to have LFR be 10 player, and also make LFR not available for the current tier. Although I'd be easier to scrap the whole thing anyways.

I could see this being a problem. The fewer players in LFR (how it currently operates) the more chaotic it would be. One of the big reasons that 10man is perceived to be more difficult is because there is a greater burden of performance upon each individual. In an LFR setting this philosophy would make the raid go to hell lol.

[endersblade]

As someone who lives in 5-mans, I would KILL for them to just remove LFR and start spitting out more dungeons. Hell yes.

[ro9ue]

The fact is that 5-mans are a good size for social interaction. I know most LFD runs usually run silent, but you still get to meet people through them. LFR is just 25 strangers in a room, and that's generally just awkward.

Pretty much this. With 5 players, it's easy to hold everyone accountable for their roles. In LFR, people AFK and hide out, some not even in the right spec. I don't think LFR should be removed, but I do think 5-mans need to come back.

[Thandorr]

As someone who lives in 5-mans, I would KILL for them to just remove LFR and start spitting out more dungeons. Hell yes.

Pretty much this. With 5 players, it's pretty easy to hold everyone accountable for their roles. In LFR, people AFK and hide out, some not even in the right spec. I don't think LFR should be removed, but I do think 5-mans need to come back.

Would you two choose dungeons over isle of thunder/timeless isle style content? That's what seems to be the trade off in available resources.

[ro9ue]

Would you two choose dungeons over isle of thunder/timeless isle style content? That's what seems to be the trade off in available resources.

I wish they would do the outdoor isles and 5 mans and drop raiding. Haha.

[MoanaLisa]

I prefer five-person content myself. Raiding, however, has been Blizzard's crown jewel (as it were) for the game and I don't see that changing. I've posted this before but it's an interesting thought experiment to imagine the some four dozen raid bosses of Mists as separate bosses in thematically progressive dungeons with storylines that run across dungeon sets, released one every couple of weeks over the life of the expansion in easy/medium/hard/challenge mode difficulties. Note this is not necessarily that much more work, it's more a redivision of content from raids to dungeons. It's a very different sort of game. Whether or not it's more engaging for players is up to them. It would be for me.

Don't make the mistake of trading LFR for dungeons though. You would be trading ALL levels of difficulty of raiding for dungeons. Raid Finder is nothing compared to the work that goes into building a raid.

- - - Updated - - -

LFR is Blizzards excuse to not have dungeons. If LFR was a failure and nobody liked it they would need dungeons.

This is not true and I think you know this. Raid Finder is Blizzard's excuse to have larger and more complicated raids. Those raids are the reason why there are less dungeons this time around. If Raid Finder was a failure I think you're right but for the wrong reasons: raids would be back down to recycled rooms and six to eight bosses, most of those on recycled frames. With that they could have done more dungeons in Mists.

[ComputerNerd]

If people are AFK'ing in LFR, it is because the rest of the raid tolerate it.
The community made it acceptable.

LFR has no organisational requirements, no need for a fixed start time or duration of attendance.
Flex doesn't solve anything inherently, as you still need the co-operation of an organised group.
The time commitment is something often and very deliberately ignored by people who have a more convenient set of circumstances.
Even those who deem their circumstances "difficult" are unique in theirs, and can't say that their ability to commit to an organised schedule means everyone can.

"Social" interaction is by choice, and not closed groups.
Interacting and talking with random people is a lot more social than that within a guild is.
LFR and LFD exposed players to larger parts of the community, but because players CHOOSE not to talk, blizzard are blamed for making them non-social.
Nope, players and players ONLY killed the social aspect of the game.

Scenarios are attractive due to the lack of fixed role requirements.
Tanks/Healers are consistently under-represented due to an often downright horrible experience they are presented with in random groups.
They rarely get the chance to learn during levelling due to heirloomed players dictating the run. always wanting faster and faster.
Despite bribes and being needed in smaller numbers they are still unpopular "out in the wild".

[Thandorr]

If Raid Finder was a failure I think you're right but for the wrong reasons: raids would be back down to recycled rooms and six to eight bosses, most of those on recycled frames. With that they could have done more dungeons in Mists.

Would you folks be ok with raiding I'm this state? I know I wouldn't. I prefer the current detail and variation within the current raid scheme.

My current ideal model for blizzards endgame content would include 10 raid bosses, an isle area, and 3 heroic dungeons a patch, or no isle with a couple raid bosses more. This appeals to my game interests; others may differ.

Also: I don't like that scenarios were emphasized more than 5mans this expac. I much prefer heroic dungeons over scenarios.

[Reyina]

I'm pretty satisfied with LFR as it is. I don't like that 99% of the fights become tank and spank, but I don't think a random group would be able to successfully do complex mechanics. I don't think it really needs to change.

[Themanintobuildafire]

I find that Blizz if full of absolute crap when they talk about "resources" in making new encounters. ALL the scenarios use graphics that already exist in the world: this was their solution to 5mans. The last time I ran a scenario was MONTHS ago...they are utter garbage.

The SoO raid utilizes SO much of the graphics already created for Org and the surrounding area...so to do things big, they have to make things that already exist in game? If recycling graphics is where Blizz is moving, it is proof positive that MASSIVE profits come at the expense of the gaming experience...sad huh?

To have made 3 "new" 5 mans with new skins etc., yeah would have taken some time, but would have been worth it. To have made 3 "recycled" 5 mans that have the same graphics as somewhere else in the world (AKA what they did in Cata) should have been fine on resources...but I bet they cut a lot of their team as much as they love to say they haven't, otherwise $25 mounts wouldn't be showing up on the Blizz store so frequently and talks of buying 90s wouldn't be talks either...all about the fooking profit over experience.

[Pyromelter]

LFR isn't the reason there are less dungeons. To have more dungeons you're going to have smaller raids. Or you're going to have it like TBC where they all used the same assets and weren't unique from each other, or both.

ICC = 13 raid bosses, plus 3 new 5-man heroics that were fun and engaging.

It has been done before, and certainly could be done again. There is a middle ground, and that middle ground was called "patch 3.3."

[endersblade]

Would you two choose dungeons over isle of thunder/timeless isle style content? That's what seems to be the trade off in available resources.

Most definitely. I enjoyed Timeless Isle (never did Thunder) for about...oh, a week or so. It was fun, but once I got all normal Timeless gear, I felt absolutely zero motivation to try and get burdened gear. But, even though I completely outgear 5-mans, I still run them. I've been JP/VP capped so many times with nothing to spend it on. I don't do it for the gear, or the JP/VP, I just enjoy running them. Now, MoP instances are most definitely NOT my favorite, but they're what I'm stuck with, so I get what enjoyment from them I can.

If they put timeless gear into instances, I would most certainly be happy with it.

[Elestia]

When the dungeon queue while leveling is faster than the queue at endgame imo there's a problem. Without a doubt people love dungeons. Is LFR like doing a 4 boss dungeon? Sure. Except raids are chaotic. 5 mans are intimate and straightforward. The only thing I see raiding good for is the social aspect, doing challenging content and getting gear so I can get more gear. LFR does none of those things. Just put people back in dungeons, even if over time they get "lfr raid gear" in the long run, let them earn it. Don't see why casuals can't earn their gear in a format that's comfortable to them, people want to be able to progress. All LFR did was reallocate /focus design resources, as if Blizzard doesn't have enough money.

[Thandorr]

Most definitely. I enjoyed Timeless Isle (never did Thunder) for about...oh, a week or so. It was fun, but once I got all normal Timeless gear, I felt absolutely zero motivation to try and get burdened gear. But, even though I completely outgear 5-mans, I still run them. I've been JP/VP capped so many times with nothing to spend it on. I don't do it for the gear, or the JP/VP, I just enjoy running them. Now, MoP instances are most definitely NOT my favorite, but they're what I'm stuck with, so I get what enjoyment from them I can.

If they put timeless gear into instances, I would most certainly be happy with it.

You could always raid to progress your character...lol. I never did timeless for gear, it was all useless for me as I had better gear than timeless when 5.4 came out.

[manybadgers]

Dungeons
I never do lfr but still queue for dungeons for fun. I do dungeons even after capping valor. They are quick, I can carry others, I get gold, we can pull the entire dungeon for extra funsies when we overgear them.

[Thandorr]

Dungeons
I never do lfr but still queue for dungeons for fun. I do dungeons even after capping valor. They are quick, I can carry others, I get gold, we can pull the entire dungeon for extra funsies when we overgear them.

I'm in the same boat as you, but that isn't true for everyone. Most folks need additional incentive.

[pimpeddakota]

The intent of this thread was not to talk about blizzards available resources per sei. I realize that removal of one difficulty does not free up the resources to develop the artwork, npc's, mechanics, etc. of new dungeons.

I was asking what was more engaging end game content.

5 mans would only be more engaging if they actually took effort. aka CC, silences, etc or here comes a wipe. If they are what 5 mans are today sorry I'll keep LFR because at least there is a chance of dying

[Thandorr]

5 mans would only be more engaging if they actually took effort. aka CC, silences, etc or here comes a wipe. If they are what 5 mans are today sorry I'll keep LFR because at least there is a chance of dying

Totally agree about necessary difficulty. Don't know if I said it in this thread, but I have said it numerous times on these forums and on official wow forums that the current state of 5 mans is atrocious. I wish that the old style of 5 man content was still around. In BC, if you didn't cc and pulled too many, you died. In order for it to be engaging endgame, it ought to require effort and a progression on ones skill, that is, incentive to improve.

Endgame should not be faceroll, and effortless; it should demand competency or at least make one desire competency.