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  1. #201
    What is wrong with leveling? I've leveled nearly all classes to 90 (shaman at 88, warlock 80) and a couple redundant 90s. Leveling is fast. Too fast, perhaps, since even without BoAs you out level a zone before you finish the quest lines. With BoAs you might do 10-15 quests in a zone, along with a dungeon for the quests and you're moving to the next area.

    Perhaps slowing leveling would be the best option. With more monk-esque things like class quests every 10 levels (they don't even have to be super challenging, a simple go to this guy that's nearby and heal/kill/defend this guy using class abilities you've recently gotten).

  2. #202
    That again... I repeat myself for the xxx time:
    1. Quests are good if you don't do them because they are quests like "uhhh where are the next quests?????" At the moment there are simply far too much unreasonable boring quests you just to because they are there.
    2. How about adding Multiplayer? WoW Supports Multiplayer gaming as experienced players who play on max level know. Why is in the entire open world not a single area that supports multiplayer? Not just "you can do it alone or with x" but more like "you only can do it with x or it will be much more rewarding with x"?
    3. Scenarios: PERFECT stuff for leveling! Multiplayer [x], active lore development [x], more potential for challenge and ability usage [x], no need for heal / tank hence fast ques [x], very easy to develop (as they stated) which could mean MANY of them to get variety [x]
    4. Downscaling dungeons with daily quests instead of passive browser rewards that make dungeons even the bad mop ones actually worth the wait and struggle (that this time came with the huge itemlevel scaling issues). Make 90s able to go nhc stuff downscaling them! Gives a huge pool of dungeons that will less likely look and feel all the same after 4 weeks.
    5. Add some kind of grinding areas with buffs and treasure rewards for the endless killing fun! Play the game instead of reading how pandabob hid his carrot under some rock!

    And the most important: BALANCE the xp/h of all that including pvp and questing!
    In Schwarzwald I roam with a bottle in my pack
    Hunting for hunters 'till the night falls black
    Creep into my flask - see how much you can drink
    A night out with me you're way too pissed to think

  3. #203
    Mechagnome Razecog's Avatar
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    How to make leveling better: Speed it up even more, leveling sucks.
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  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram View Post
    Scenarios: PERFECT stuff for leveling! Multiplayer [x], active lore development [x], more potential for challenge and ability usage [x], no need for heal / tank hence fast ques [x], very easy to develop (as they stated) which could mean MANY of them to get variety [x]
    This is good for about a year. Then scenarios will be just like dungeons. You'll have one "superhero" who knows them backwards and forwards and just wants to get through them as fast as possible so that they can start gearing their alt up for raids. They'll tear through the scenario all on their own while everyone else struggles to keep up and/or avoid dying to all those patrols that this guy avoided without even having to think twice. By the time they reach the end (if they do) the end-boss of the scenario will be half-dead (or completely dead). So the new player gets a couple of shots off at the end boss (if they're lucky) before it drops like a sack of potatoes and they collect their loot. Then the superhero drops group without so much as a goodbye because they can't get to their next "adventure" fast enough. In the meantime the new player is left to scratch their head and wonder what the hell just happened. Does this really sound like PERFECT for levelling to you?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Razecog View Post
    How to make leveling better: Speed it up even more, leveling sucks.
    People like you should just be allowed to buy a max level character. If you don't like leveling you shouldn't have to. Ruining everyone else's experience to placate people who don't like to do it to begin with is ruining the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  5. #205
    Delete all max level characters with each new expansion and force people to re-level again. Apart from this no matter how "interesting" you make leveling it's still a very solitary experience in what is supposed to be a massively multiplayer game. If you don't have people populating the zones(from your own server, other servers don't count since we all know how people act towards people they'll likely never see again) leveling is pretty boring. End of story. What that means is that 10 years into a game like WoW, leveling is going to be inherently boring and people are going to want to do everything they can to skip it. All selling level 90 characters does is give people who don't want to slog through the level grind again the opportunity to play some new classes.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Delete all max level characters with each new expansion and force people to re-level again.
    This is a good way to kill subscriptions completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Apart from this no matter how "interesting" you make leveling it's still a very solitary experience in what is supposed to be a massively multiplayer game. If you don't have people populating the zones(from your own server, other servers don't count since we all know how people act towards people they'll likely never see again) leveling is pretty boring.
    If I want to level with other people I'll find a levelling guild. I've levelled in populated areas and it's annoying as hell. I'll tell you what: visit the Blizzard forums on the day of the expansion and just count the number of rage posts detailing accounts of griefing, trolling, limited quest accessibility, and general server instability. Levelling in populated areas is not fun, regardless of whether I'm having to deal with locals or players from other servers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    10 years into a game like WoW, leveling is going to be inherently boring and people are going to want to do everything they can to skip it.
    I can agree with that, but only because most players in the game have already been there and done that. Resetting their characters isn't going to make them want to revisit it. If anything, it will be a good incentive to try another game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    All selling level 90 characters does is give people who don't want to slog through the level grind again the opportunity to play some new classes.
    Exactly.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    This is good for about a year. Then scenarios will be just like dungeons. You'll have one "superhero" who knows them backwards and forwards and just wants to get through them as fast as possible so that they can start gearing their alt up for raids. They'll tear through the scenario all on their own while everyone else struggles to keep up and/or avoid dying to all those patrols that this guy avoided without even having to think twice. By the time they reach the end (if they do) the end-boss of the scenario will be half-dead (or completely dead). So the new player gets a couple of shots off at the end boss (if they're lucky) before it drops like a sack of potatoes and they collect their loot. Then the superhero drops group without so much as a goodbye because they can't get to their next "adventure" fast enough. In the meantime the new player is left to scratch their head and wonder what the hell just happened. Does this really sound like PERFECT for levelling to you?
    Don't missunderstand me. I am your nemesis, a hardcore player and that since vanilla. In vanilla I did everything to get the 30weapon for my warrior as soon as I dinged 30 so that I could be max level as soon as possible.
    I led people with an iron fist through BRD including onyxia escord quest for max experience when they were total noobs knowing nothing (and didn't have a single of my 10+ quests in there) while I had 10 60s. I abused peoples unawereness since all the time to get as quick to max level as possible. Leveling to me is something like "I have to do vs paying $$$" and I am quiet stingy, so that I often rather reroll instead of transfering (You might get the hints how many chars on max level I deleted cause of cap vs how many an avaerage player has) and atm I just dungeon grind the whole thing without even bothering waiting for my group or doing it their way (most of my chars are tanks / since RaF I purchase copies of WoW to level most other classes) and with entering cata I mixed it then.

    MY point: No matter what content it is, to me it will never be a challenge. It will never create the feeling it might can provide for a casual. No matter how big the dragon is or how many lore gods are clashing - to me it will be the same (well - if exp/h fits I'd rather have 10 lore gods clashing vs getting a boarleg for some random peasant... you know) BECAUSE the content I enjoy is stuff only <1% of the players actually can play / feel/ beat / enjoy whatever. There is no way that they can provide even 10% of that as leveling content!

    However I never had so few choices as in MoP in that regard. In classic even grinding felt better than it does now. The quests - I liked the nagrand style and some similar like netherstorm or so were you had really high exp/h mainly due to grinding mobs while doing a lot of quests with just that at the same time. I hate the current leveling system because as soon as in pandaland I cannot find my quickest way to do stuff and have to go with quests vs grind. And since the quests are really... just bad and the lore behind 80% of them is just nonkanon and bad the gameplay of these quests is just as bad I prefere grind as soon as I reach 87. I go killing yetis in kunlai with the buffbeers till I reach 90 - it's the most painless way to me. BUT with scenarios or rewarding group quests, with TBC or classic dungeons in the mix I could have a far better time because it would not be as monotone. Hell even PVP would be great if it would provide equal exp. But I currently don'T have a choice. I have to be a casual while leveling no matter how many flasks and heirlooms I have. I hate that. I want alternatives. It might be good for other mentalities as well but I could care less tbh.

    I only truely enjoy endgame nowadays (and even in classic, after seeing all the hidden things like most stuff in azshara that was mysterious simply because it had no use and never got used after that, I just wanted to play endgame) and leveling actually offers no real choice because it's imbalanced in terms of xp/h and doesn't even provide as many choices as it did in old times when you easily could skip the horde 49-51 grind doing jintha alor and so on.
    Last edited by Hiram; 2014-01-22 at 12:00 AM.
    In Schwarzwald I roam with a bottle in my pack
    Hunting for hunters 'till the night falls black
    Creep into my flask - see how much you can drink
    A night out with me you're way too pissed to think

  8. #208
    There's no way to do it in a way that fixes the issues for everyone. Some people want it to be more challenging, but that'd make others even less willing to suffer through leveling. Some want it to be a lot faster, but others whine that it's cheapening their experience. It doesn't matter what you do to it, people are going to want to rush to end game. Look at Star Wars, hell that game was practically built for excellent leveling and questing, yet people still rushed to end game and got pissed off that there wasn't enough to do yet. Because of the end game focus in this genre, I'd say making it interesting but easy and quick is the best way. Or, as we're about to do, let people skip it, at least after the first time through.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram View Post
    Don't missunderstand me. I am your nemesis, a hardcore player and that since vanilla.
    You misunderstand me. You are not my nemesis. You are the kind of player that Blizzard should want to retain. However, their retention tactics shouldn't come at new players' expense either. You don't like levelling, and I get that. I think that giving you the option to buy your way to max level is the right thing to do. That way you can get back to living your hardcore in-game lifestyle as soon as possible. I don't think the current experience does anyone any favors. You're not happy, and new players aren't going to be happy when they have the misfortune to be grouped with you. That's why I believe that scenarios should stay where they are right now: in the end game. You might enjoy levelling through scenarios for a couple of months, but after that it will be just as annoying to you as all that other stuff. The level grind is simply not where you belong, and that's OK. Levelling should be left to new players and to those who enjoy it and voluntarily participate in it.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  10. #210
    A lot of people are saying "Remove LFG!" or "Nerf LFG XP!" I strongly disagree with these ideas, rather, I think we should try to fix some of the problems I found while leveling through dungeons.

    For one, let me just say that whenever I level an alt, it's always with the intent of raiding (typically flex) on them. As such, there is simply no way for me to enjoy the "Go kill 30 bears!" of questing as much as I enjoy running through a dungeon and killing bosses, though I believe these two methods can exist together without much interference.

    First problem with dungeon leveling though, is how poorly distributed the experience and amount of dungeons is. From level 15-30, with guild bonuses and heirlooms, there are still a decent amount of dungeons I haven't been able to do before reaching a high enough level to exceed their brackets, fast forward a bit, and I'm running Dire Maul over and over and over again, Hellfire Ramparts over and over and over again, Utgarde Keep over and over and over again.

    Instead, I say dungeon experience should be retuned to grant roughly one level per dungeon, more for some lower level dungeons, and that dungeon should be the only one accessible at that level. This way, if a player decides to level through dungeons, they see every dungeon once, and aren't forced to keep repeating the same dungeon until they are finally pushed out of it's bracket.

    Additionally, dungeon difficulty should be increased in order to make dungeons less of a steamroll, and feel more like low-level versions of endgame content, as well as encouraging people to make their own groups, while still allowing you to queue to pick up the last one or two people you need.

  11. #211
    I just did the "new" (I guess it's new since Cata?) undead quests and it was actually very well done. I kept along with the story with Sylvanas and such. It was actually pretty entertaining. I'd like all the quests to be like that, but for some reason I couldn't get into the story in MOP/cata. I guess Wotlk had a story, but it wasn't much really. Just go to Northrend and kill Arthas.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyPidgey View Post

    Additionally, dungeon difficulty should be increased in order to make dungeons less of a steamroll, and feel more like low-level versions of endgame content, as well as encouraging people to make their own groups, while still allowing you to queue to pick up the last one or two people you need.
    I dunno about this part. If you're truely a new player at level 25 you aren't going to be either equipped (gear or skill or ability) to handle end game sort of difficulty. Hell, healers don't even really have many abilities (depends I guess) at that point. The problem with increasing difficulty is
    #1 it's not representative of end game content because heroics and scenarios ARE a steamroll
    #2 the toolkit is so spread out that prior to 50 or 60 you may not really have what you need.

    Regarding #1, I'd like for the entirety of the game's difficulty prior to normal/heroic raiding to be increased (including low level dungeons), but I think that's a pipe dream. Despite the enormity of resources available now (paradoxically the resources were LESS available, but the game was MORE difficult when it first came out), people are still unable to play well, by and large.

  12. #212
    I really agree with Zka. I recently watched the starter experience of Vanilla played (for the first time since they changed it, I think) and I was blown away. I forgot that it could take an hour to get to level 5 and that you could die so many times in the process. You were forced to learn your shit or you couldn't even quest. When you got a new spell, it was like "DAMN, I needed this." You got new gear JUST as you felt you could barely make it any longer. After watching this, I created my own character on a live realm to compare. Literally facerolled every mob in that zone. Mobs that took 15-25 seconds to kill were dead in less than 3. I could take on multiple mobs easily, while in Vanilla, you were literally fucked if you got over 3 mobs at a time. Mobs used to be scary, and positioning/aggro-awareness was vital.

    I see no benefit in removing that aspect. Yes, it makes the game easier for new players to enter, but it doesn't teach them anything good. You can get to 90 without knowing how to play your class correctly. There are players now who play like they bought their characters when they may have legitimately leveled them the whole way themselves.

    The balance was really tight. It may have been a little cruel, but that meant you either got better gear or made up for the gap with skill. You don't need either, now. Just out of curiosity, I played my shadow priest butt-naked in Howling Fjord, and easily killed multiple mobs on me at once. I hardly noticed a difference between no gear and heirloom gear. How lame is that?

    If Blizz still wants the leveling experience to cater to future "LFR heroes," there should at least be an option for a "heroic" leveling option that either scales mobs up or your stats down for a more "Vanilla" experience. Leveling was challenging and rewarding for me for a long time, but now it is really disappointing, as I feel I have to wait until I get to current expansion-level to be given an opportunity to flex my moves at all.

    I don't know...I feel that gamers want a challenge again. Games are getting pretty easy, and it's funny to see how certain people flock to games like Dark Souls, just enjoying the sheer masochism of the game. Games used to punish you until you were worthy. Maybe WoW isn't supposed to be like that anymore, but I, personally, would certainly like it to be much closer to that than it is now.

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