Replace LFR with 5-mans

[MoanaLisa]

The time to discuss removing Raid Finder from the game or changing it so radically will be when the number of people participating in it is more like Heroic raiding is now. Good luck with that but that's when a discussion of a radical overhaul of Raid Finder will be more likely to be listened to.

[AeneasBK]

Because so long as "dirty casual scum" is allowed to raid without putting in a per-requsite amount of effort determined by the psedu-hard core elitist raiding community, they will *never* drop the subject.

Don't forget they know why you enjoy video games more than you do :P

[Frozenbeef]

Instead of giving us a drama filled LFR snooze fests, give us drama filled 5man snooze fests.

[AeneasBK]

1 out of 50 complaints to blizzard itself may come from the hardcore crowd. That better?

Thats pretty much to be expected; about 1 in 50 players are part of the hardcore crowd... I think your point may have gotten lost somewhere along the way...

[MoanaLisa]

I see people still complaining because lfr isn't good enough and demand more and more and more.

Most complaints about Raid Finder that I see are in the nature of removing it or changing it so radically that it would cease to exist. The quote is a bit out of touch with the reality especially given the topic of the thread.

[pallyopness]

Most complaints about Raid Finder that I see are in the nature of removing it or changing it so radically that it would cease to exist. The quote is a bit out of touch with the reality especially given the topic of the thread.

So I must be completely mistaken here.....but I interpreted the OP to be a "casual" player. Who does not like what blizzard offers and wants it radically changed even more to make things easier. Did I interpret his post wrong? His post does not read to me like a "hardcore" player demanding lfr be removed.......in which case actually shows I am calling out the matter for what it is?

[Ronduwil]

oh yes PLEEEEASE make the end boss even easier by turning him into a 5 man dungeon boss!!!! EPIC KILL!!!

Because having 24 other people backing you up is so much more epic. That's why I never pick a fight without at least 24 of my best friends in tow. I roll epically like that.

[Sansnom]

Actually blizzard made the content hard to reward players who put in the time and wanted their game to be hard to beat. then blizzard made content so that people who weren't very skilled could still see the content...but from there I see people still complaining because lfr isn't good enough and demand more and more and more. Blizzard complaints don't come from the hardcore, that is what I see, they come from the other end of the spectrum, so nice try on your argument.

So, who are these people complaining about LFR and demands it should be removed or drops should be removed because it is "there to see content only"?

So what are the complaints from the "other end of the spectrum" that you are referring to? I can only assume you mean the "casual raiders"? Are these the people complaining about LFR being not good enough?

[pallyopness]

Because having 24 other people backing you up is so much more epic. That's why I never pick a fight without at least 24 of my best friends in tow. I roll epically like that.

Yes because WoW is EXACTLY like real life.....life comparisons to a video game makes sense.....but I will play your little analogy game, albeit correctly...would you go try to take over a countries head honcho single handedly? Or would you take an army?

[Mirishka]

Blizzard’s time invested in tuning raids for LFR should be reallocated into tuning them for 5-man versions of the instances instead.

Back in the day, casuals ran 5-mans, and we liked it. Instead of giving us a drama filled LFR snooze fests, give us a challenge with 5-man versions of the high-end raids.

This opens a new endgame for those who do not want to commit to 10-25 man raiding. Make them hard, but doable in 1-2 hours with a competent group. Don’t put them into the dungeon finder. Make people fly out to them. Put a one week lockout on them. Loot is equivalent to LFR gear.

Also, get raid/dungeon scaling implemented. We want a “scaling switch” to enable/disable scaling to run old raids as a challenge. There are around 30 old raids that are mainly used for transmog runs only. Scale them and allow for LFR level gear to drop and watch them come alive again.

The new loot system in WoD make this an even better idea. The hardcore folks who are not in a Heroic/Mythic raiding group could run “all” 30+ old raids per week trying to get their “perfect” LFR level gear.

TLDR: Remove LFR. Enable 5-man raids. Enable optional raid scaling.

Not sure why you didn't just add this to any of the many, other threads QQing about LFR. But no, it isn't going anywhere. Sorry.

Also, this is an incredibly stupid idea.

[Zebuthecow]

This is stupid. People can do both and will. It is not an either or.

What is it with you people who want to tell other people what they should do in the game? Control freaks?

[pallyopness]

So, who are these people complaining about LFR and demands it should be removed or drops should be removed because it is "there to see content only"?

So what are the complaints from the "other end of the spectrum" that you are referring to? I can only assume you mean the "casual raiders"? Are these the people complaining about LFR being not good enough?

In essence yes.....people asked for easier ways to see end content...blizz delivered...now they complain that the gear isn't the same....the q is too long and blizzard must fix....its too face roll even though it takes hours to complete for the intended crowd. Need more examples or did I get the point across?

[Ronduwil]

Actually blizzard made the content hard to reward players who put in the time and wanted their game to be hard to beat.

And as a business and social decision this is a stupid reason to make content hard. There's nothing wrong with challenging players, but "rewarding" them for spending more time consuming their server resources is not a sound business practice. The "reward" is experiencing the content in and of itself. Bribing players to do raid content by giving them disproportionate power in other parts of the game compromises the rest of the game at everyone else's expense. See the Heroic MoP Dungeons for a classic example of this.

then blizzard made content so that people who weren't very skilled could still see the content...

Because they quickly realized how stupid a business decision it was to only make content for players willing to dedicate 3 hours at a time to the game on a regular schedule.

but from there I see people still complaining because lfr isn't good enough and demand more and more and more. Blizzard complaints don't come from the hardcore, that is what I see, they come from the other end of the spectrum, so nice try on your argument.

If you actually read the OP, he was complaining because LFR came at the expense of 5-man dungeons. It's not about LFR being good enough. It's about wanting something to do at the end of the game besides raiding the same 16 bosses week in and week out.

[Kuul]

I agree LFR pretty much lost its meaning when they announced flex. Flex is what LFR should have always been. Nowadays I feel like LFR is only full of AFKers/bots and most of the people are ignoring fight mechanics (like Thok's chomp doing only 25% of your HP in LFR). I wouldn't say they are an epic exprience at all.

[Paulosio]

I think the time it takes to completely redo raid bosses to be viable for 5 player groups is going to be FAR greater than the time it takes to tune the bosses down a bit for LFR. It's not an either or situation.

[pallyopness]

And as a business and social decision this is a stupid reason to make content hard. There's nothing wrong with challenging players, but "rewarding" them for spending more time consuming their server resources is not a sound business practice. The "reward" is experiencing the content in and of itself. Bribing players to do raid content by giving them disproportionate power in other parts of the game compromises the rest of the game at everyone else's expense. See the Heroic MoP Dungeons for a classic example of this.


Because they quickly realized how stupid a business decision it was to only make content for players willing to dedicate 3 hours at a time to the game on a regular schedule.


If you actually read the OP, he was complaining because LFR came at the expense of 5-man dungeons. It's not about LFR being good enough. It's about wanting something to do at the end of the game besides raiding the same 16 bosses week in and week out.

So doing the same 5 man dungeon which takes 15 minutes is a better route than raiding? That seems a bit odd of an argument don't you think? Raids keep players a bit more entertained than any dungeon can. Also as a business standpoint you are wrong. It is quite sound of a decision to require players to put in more time, it keeps money flowing in. The more time it takes to complete things, the more time they stay subbed. There will always be people who quit because it is too difficult and they don't wish to excel.

[Sansnom]

In essence yes.....people asked for easier ways to see end content...blizz delivered...now they complain that the gear isn't the same....the q is too long and blizzard must fix....its too face roll even though it takes hours to complete for the intended crowd. Need more examples or did I get the point across?

I disagree that it is the LFR crowd complaining about LFR. Yes, the non-raiders, for what ever reason, could not raid and Blizzard gave them an easier version. The only complaint about that is the queue time. But queue time has been a problem in other elements of the game. LFD for example.

The complaint I have seen about LFR being too easy and face-roll are from the regular/heroic raiders. Not from the LFR raiders, the intended crowd.

[Ronduwil]

Yes because WoW is EXACTLY like real life.....life comparisons to a video game makes sense.....but I will play your little analogy game, albeit correctly...would you go try to take over a countries head honcho single handedly? Or would you take an army?

This is getting a bit off-topic, but assassinations are not unheard of. If the goal is to take out one guy then you send one in. When armies are involved the goal is usually a bit more involved than that. I guarantee that the assassin works just as hard as the typical soldier. The handful of guys involved in Bin Laden's capture were just as heroic as the hundreds of thousands of guys who stormed the beaches of Normandy on D-Day.

[pallyopness]

This is getting a bit off-topic, but assassinations are not unheard of. If the goal is to take out one guy then you send one in. When armies are involved the goal is usually a bit more involved than that. I guarantee that the assassin works just as hard as the typical soldier. The handful of guys involved in Bin Laden's capture were just as heroic as the hundreds of thousands of guys who stormed the beaches of Normandy on D-Day.

AH HA!!! But to be an assassin requires skill.......something that was lacking which caused the creation of lfr in the first place.

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No, nobody complained and asked for LFR. Blizzard wanted to try slow sub loss and actually have more people see the content they put so much work into. Show any post anywhere, before the release of LFR, where someone actually asks for the exact thing that LFR was in Cata.

LOL you are out of touch with reality here....LFR was not created to slow sub loss.....if anything it has encouraged sub loss. people see end content and unsub like MANY on these exact forums have said they do since LFR was created.

- - - Updated - - -

I disagree that it is the LFR crowd complaining about LFR. Yes, the non-raiders, for what ever reason, could not raid and Blizzard gave them an easier version. The only complaint about that is the queue time. But queue time has been a problem in other elements of the game. LFD for example.

The complaint I have seen about LFR being too easy and face-roll are from the regular/heroic raiders. Not from the LFR raiders, the intended crowd.

I am a heroic raider and i think lfr is what it should be....faceroll easy for the intended crowd...I just think the intended crowd didn't realize how bad it would be to be grouped together.

[Ronduwil]

So doing the same 5 man dungeon which takes 15 minutes is a better route than raiding? That seems a bit odd of an argument don't you think? Raids keep players a bit more entertained than any dungeon can. Also as a business standpoint you are wrong. It is quite sound of a decision to require players to put in more time, it keeps money flowing in. The more time it takes to complete things, the more time they stay subbed.

I'm not talking MoP dungeons. WotLK had 16 dungeons to pick from by the end. Each took the typical pug about 45 minutes. That's about half as long as heroic DS clears were taking my guild by the end of last expansion. So you're telling me that 16 dungeons at 45 minutes is really more compelling than one raid at an hour and a half? Granted, that working up to that point requires hours upon hours for weeks upon weeks of beating your head against the same bosses week in and week out, but most players don't have the patience for that. This is why LFR and Flex came into being.

There will always be people who quit because it is too difficult and they don't wish to excel.

Actually most people who quit because it is too difficult would rather put their effort into excelling at an activity that will actually pay off for them in a meaningful way. If you're having trouble understanding that I urge you to read this 6 Harsh Truths That Will Make You a Better Person article and figure out where raiding fits into that.