1. #1

    Using killing spree once it comes up even if AR is up?

    So I read somewhere on EJ that supposably using KS when it comes up even if Adren rush still has a little bit left on it is a dps gain? anyone know if that is true? Also said waiting to use Adren rush if KS is comming off cd in 20 seconds or less is a dps gain? Any thoughts?

  2. #2
    I'll use KSp during the last second or two of AR, but never in the middle. I'm not sure if KSp during AR+SB is actually a gain because you'll lose so much energy and probably more RB CDR on your AR+SB than is worth it, thus delaying your next KSp too. If you have links to numbers, that would be nice. I've never seen someone actually math it out.

    Holding AR+SB if KSp is about to come up is definitely a gain. If you KSp then AR+SB, the CD on KSp will basically be over. So you're trading some AR+SB CD time for an additional KSp. 20s is the rule of thumb I play by, but I didn't know that was the actual breakpoint. Again, a link to numbers would be neat.

  3. #3
    I have no numbers to prove it, but I doubt KS should be used during AR. 3.5 seconds of not using abilities is 5+ cp lost if only AR is up, or 10+ cp if AR+SB is up. That delays your next AR/SB by 10+ seconds. When AR/SB has an average cooldown of less than 40 seconds, that is a pretty huge uptime loss.

    Someone smarter than me can probably say for sure.

  4. #4
    This was the discussion on the matter I did not get to fully read through the forum since I am at work, but its towards the lower end of the page.
    http://forums.elitistjerks.com/index...ead-yet/page-7

  5. #5
    So, it looks like KSp during AR+SB (if you can get to low energy and before SB drops) is an increase (up to 10k); however, they say it could just be due to SimC's Combat profile being poorly optimized and real game data should be collected. It looks like that's the end of the conversation.

    I don't see anything about delaying AR+SB for up to 20s for KSp, but if the above is true, I'd imagine you should never do that.

    I'm going to try this out this week and see how it goes. Maybe some of the EJ people could weigh in here too.

    I should read EJ more often. These discussions are really interesting.

  6. #6
    Wait so does that mean you don't wait if ks has 20 seconds on it? your two posts are confusing :P But yeah I try and do research to be optimal but there is so many threads that say different things

  7. #7
    I don't have much to say about it. I can't test it, and haven't seen someone else try and generate logs to explore the idea.

    It's not something I would have expected to be true, but you do lose out on a significant chunk of KS damage by not delaying AR+SB. There might be some truth in both scenarios, where the default profile is fairly under-optimized, but also that using KS during AR+SB is better than waiting for AR+SB to be over.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Haytur View Post
    Wait so does that mean you don't wait if ks has 20 seconds on it? your two posts are confusing :P But yeah I try and do research to be optimal but there is so many threads that say different things
    The first post is what I do currently before you linked the source. The second is my interpretation of the discussion and data you linked from EJ.

  9. #9
    Hello.

    I'll use this thread to ask something about killing spree.
    I'm not sure I use it well to min-max my dps.

    Is there any rules to use Killing Spree ?
    For example, here is the situation :
    - I have 5CP
    - KS is ready
    - I'm in low insight (about 2/4)
    - AR has 40 seconds cooldown remaining ?

    Should I press KS when it's ready ?
    Should I delay it without losing any Restless Blades 10 (going to Moderate Insight and land it)
    Should I delay it with "wasting" 10 seconds from Restless Blade to land it with a Deep Insight ?

    Same question with a 20 seconds CD on AR+SB.
    Last question (I love question, hehe) : Squirl said earlier it is a DPS gain to delay AR+SB when KS is close. But what is the limit ? When is it a DPS loss to delay AR+SB ?

    Have a nice day dear rouges.

  10. #10
    That's just the thing, nobody really knows how long it's worth holding AR/SB for KSpree, and no-one knows at what point during AR/SB it stop being worth it to use KSpree right when it comes up.

  11. #11
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Been doing this for the past week or so, anecdotal evidence is that it's been a positive change to my dps or at the very least, the difference isn't noticeable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    I don't see anything about delaying AR+SB for up to 20s for KSp, but if the above is true, I'd imagine you should never do that.
    Ran some sims on that a while back, found nothing conclusive on holding back either cooldown for the other - I now consider them totally independent of each other.

    Plus, dat burst...
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  12. #12
    I always wait for AR to run out. Otherwise you cap energy for 3-4 seconds which is a big dps loss.

    General rule: use KS when on low energy to do damage and regen energy for free, ideally in Deep Insight but otherwise just use on cooldown.

    Also, ideally use KS before AR/SB, so you can use AR/SB to reduce KS cd except at the very start of the fight if hero is popped straight away (in which case wit with KS).

    Remember, KS is still a relatively small amount of dps. It is a nice cd but priority is to get as much AR/SB uptime as possible.

  13. #13
    I'm not sure to understand.
    Don't start with KS at the beginning of the fight ?
    Is 8-9% of the DPS a small amount ? Without even talking about melee swings with the 4P during KS.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Been doing this for the past week or so, anecdotal evidence is that it's been a positive change to my dps or at the very least, the difference isn't noticeable.
    This was my experience last night. Maybe better, but hard to tell.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by jtstormrage View Post
    I always wait for AR to run out. Otherwise you cap energy for 3-4 seconds
    Yes, true...

    which is a big dps loss.
    Citation needed. EJ says otherwise, don't they? Or at least they think otherwise. I consider this unresolved.

    Scenario 1: You press KS. Your energy caps, meaning you have less total to spend. On the other hand, the autoattacks are buffed by AR (20% more of them), shadow blades (50%-ish more damage due to armor ignore) and spree (50% extra damage or something right)- that last one being a gain.

    Scenario 2: You hold KS. Your energy stays barely capped whilst you run your rotation. On the other hand, each Eviscerate isn't turning the clock on killing spree, making it weaker than other eviscerates. You get less sprees over the whole fight. When you DO press spree, the autoattacks during it won't share the AR/SB buff.




    So while what you say COULD be true, I'd want to see more than just intuition regarding lost energy, because there's more at play here, and we don't have intuition on it because we otherwise aren't concerned with this. If simcraft says it is a gain, it likely is, unless we know simc is screwing something up.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by jtstormrage View Post
    I always wait for AR to run out. Otherwise you cap energy for 3-4 seconds which is a big dps loss.

    General rule: use KS when on low energy to do damage and regen energy for free, ideally in Deep Insight but otherwise just use on cooldown.

    Also, ideally use KS before AR/SB, so you can use AR/SB to reduce KS cd except at the very start of the fight if hero is popped straight away (in which case wit with KS).

    Remember, KS is still a relatively small amount of dps. It is a nice cd but priority is to get as much AR/SB uptime as possible.
    The AR energy capping loss is not as big as you think. Remember that doing KS during AR gives you 3.5 sec of 20% more frequent full armor ignore autoattacks doing 50% more damage. That might be enough to overcome the wasted energy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    So while what you say COULD be true, I'd want to see more than just intuition regarding lost energy, because there's more at play here, and we don't have intuition on it because we otherwise aren't concerned with this. If simcraft says it is a gain, it likely is, unless we know simc is screwing something up.
    Simc doesn't get every mechanic right. It definitely has its shortcomings regarding cleaving/aoe (it definitely doesn't model blade flurry correctly last I checked). But given more dev time likely goes into single target, then it's likely more optimized there.

    I generally KS and AR/SB as soon as they are available (unless they are coming off cd at almost the same time, in which case I follow general convention of KS > AR/SB).

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    The AR energy capping loss is not as big as you think. Remember that doing KS during AR gives you 3.5 sec of 20% more frequent full armor ignore autoattacks doing 50% more damage. That might be enough to overcome the wasted energy.
    All KS during AR/SB has pretty insane burst especially if you can hit KS under trinkets as well it hits hard as hell and doing them combined is by far the highest burst damage combat can pull off.

    And best case scenario you can drop your energy relatively low during AR/SB, pop KS and only energy cap for 1-2 seconds if that. Obviously popping KS at 5 CP, 5 stacks of anticipation and 100% energy wouldn't be as good but in a non-maxed out CP state + low energy the loss of energy should be relatively small.

    But, also something that hasn't be mentioned is that not only will potential CP be lost because of energy capping there will also be a loss of cp due to 4 sinister strikes not being used so I guess on top of everything there's also 8 seconds of time off due to not being able to SS during KS which is time lost to another AR/SB.

    So really losing out on 2-3 seconds of AR energy regen by energy capping + the loss of CP from not SSing during SB could honestly cause you to lose upwards of 10 CP or more depending on how long you energy cap and that's 20 seconds off of AR/SB.

    Also if even this was proven to be a DPS increase would that make gemming pure agi and agi/haste instead of agi/haste and haste possibly a better choice to go since you'd waste less energy?

  18. #18
    Think about this for a second. According to the T16H published results on simulationcraft.org, killing spree has an effective cd of 32.4 seconds. With 3.0 sec channel time on a 32.4 second cd, that's 9.25% uptime with 50% increased bonus to autoattacks, MG Procs, Lightning Strikes, Flurries of Xuen, DP-I procs, and the occasional DP DoT tick. That's a ~4.6% increase in damage to your passive damage sources.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Think about this for a second. According to the T16H published results on simulationcraft.org, killing spree has an effective cd of 32.4 seconds. With 3.0 sec channel time on a 32.4 second cd, that's 9.25% uptime with 50% increased bonus to autoattacks, MG Procs, Lightning Strikes, Flurries of Xuen, DP-I procs, and the occasional DP DoT tick. That's a ~4.6% increase in damage to your passive damage sources.
    Which version of the AoC is that using?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    Which version of the AoC is that using?
    Heroic, WF or not I am unsure, but I'd assume WF.

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