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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximum View Post
    As most of what you're saying is correct I'm not speaking about keeping DoC and tf up on dots. That is like square one feral. Reacting to trinket procs and knowing when to pool and when not to pool is something entirely different and what mainly sets good ferals from not so good ones. If the big "skill cap" in ferals was just on using tf and DoC correctly the spec would be a joke compared to what it is. Just look at the disparity in logs for multiple siege of orgrimmar encounters, do you think the 2 people consistantly getting 1 2 or 3 on everything means they just get better trinket procs than everyone else? Maybe its just me but feral is really the best class when it comes to just purely outplaying people, and i feel like with that change it will become more like the rest of the classes
    Now tell me how you got that immersus rank, besides double procs, how did you position yourself to hit everything, is that mostly tank's job or what, they're all over the place in my guild.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    Still can't think of an appropriate replacement for an additional 4 seconds on rip for that talent. Ideas are welcome.

    Ideas on fun minor glyphs would also be neat.
    Make some of those major glyphs baseline and add this for a major glyph.

    Ravenous Bite: Adds 2 Combo points worth of damage to Ferocious Bite.
    Last edited by teddabear; 2014-02-18 at 04:41 AM.

  3. #243
    Ideas for more meaningful major glyphs.

    • New glyph that removes the need to extend rip. That is, rip now lasts an additional [6/8/9 seconds, depending on how they fix the extension bug] and can no longer be extended. (Cleave glyph, analogous to sweeping strikes, splitting ice, chain lightning, and others.)
    • Change glyph of barkskin to also increase AoE damage reduction (by, say, 20%) while barkskin is up. (Survival glyph, analogous to cloak of shadows or fade.)
    • Change glyph of dash to have a more noticeable effect. E.g. reduces cooldown to 1 minute and duration to 7 seconds. Or gives dash two charges.
    • Glyph of cat form can stay, though maybe reduced a bit. It wouldn't be such an outlier if there were compelling alternatives. (Would be a general damage reduction glyph option, analogous to inner sanctum or feint.)
    • Glyph of savagery doesn't necessarily have to go. It would be an option for fights with downtime. Might be too weak though.

  4. #244
    I changed the boring level 100 talent to the following:

    Feral
    Vicious
    Passive
    Mastery now instead affects direct damaging abilities. Increases damage of direct damaging abilities when none of your bleeds are affecting your target (higher(40%) for shred, less(20%) for ravage, swipe, and bite).


    I'd appreciate a number crunch from you, though, sten, as I think this could be phenomenally broken for burst damage in pvp, and your ideas for how a meaningful and interesting shift from bleeds to direct damage could work while still giving a competitive throughput increase vs the other level 100 talents.

    I also liked your ideas for major glyphs and added them as I saw fit. You're right that with enough powerful competition, glyph of cat form and savagery might be fine remaining, although with the latter I'm still a tad worried. How big of a dps increase is it to have roar for the opening of a raid fight, especially when crit and haste ratings will be so low at the start of next expansion?

    Still trying to think of fun minor glyphs.
    Last edited by hullaballoonatic; 2014-02-18 at 06:07 PM.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Except that's a more general issue that could be viewed independent of trinket procs and more towards the shift in spec power/flexibility as one gears up. When any class/spec is undergeared, everything feels harder to execute and will likely require more skill to optimally perform (which also causes spec/class imbalance, the typical balancing headaches). Once we start gearing up, everything gets easy... even with current snap-shotting of bleeds it's really easy to just track the strength of bleeds and react accordingly, and the amount of skill required to execute properly is minimal. The simplistic version is that from the beginning to the end of an expansion, Ferals go from insane skill cap to almost none at all currently; the snapshot change affects the beginning of an expansion a lot more than the end.
    I don't actually agree with that. I don't believe that snapshotting is a huge skill factor in the beginning of an expansion, where you just don't have the gear to react to them. It's more luck than anything.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Karlzone View Post
    I don't actually agree with that. I don't believe that snapshotting is a huge skill factor in the beginning of an expansion, where you just don't have the gear to react to them. It's more luck than anything.
    One could rephrase this - and I'm more inclined to favor what Maximum mentioned earlier - to state that at the beginning (when energy is scarce) it is much more important to get a feel for your rotation and not waste your resources (ie. going nuts on Thrash and FB in early MoP). Then at the end-tier you start gearing up and you enter an entire new arena of skill-cap which was totally unavoidable: doing the fight correctly with minimal downtime, minimal deaths and making sure you're assigned to a task where you can be most optimal so that you have no opportunity loss when reacting to trinket procs. In the end, encounter design is a huge factor in this. We might be more inclined to think badly about early-MoP due to the sheer amount of ridiculous target swaps, downtime and aoe on the first two tiers (all bosses in MSV, 4 bosses in HoF, don't get me started on ToES).

    Rune is a good example for this. Even if you picked it up in LFR with ~510 ilvl it would still be extremely difficult to pull off optimally, especially with the old 20-second Renataki. Add to that the huge amounts of target-swaps and aoe during ToT progression and you end up with a class that's hard to play and ends up mid-pack. However, once you gear up and start developing your muscle memory and throw that against a ton of singletarget-heavy fights with damage modifiers (ok, and a random buff to rip) and you get the single highest dps class in the game. Unfortunately, the skill-cap at this avenue consists of playing "defensively" to make sure you do not incur any opportunity cost (so you can reapply bleeds) while reacting to a specific boss encounter.
    This can cause a lot of toxic behavior during progression though, especially in a utility-heavy raid like SoO (towers on Galakras, add duty on Sha, Siegecrafter Belt, nazgrim adds, ...) where target-swapping and boss downtime are the norm. I'm happy blizzard decided to scrap this negative feedback loop and re-evaluate our dps rotation and capabilities but it's more than likely that they're going to over-simplify us for the first couple tiers until they figure out the do's and don'ts of whatever they'll come up with. This might shy away a lot of people from an already under-represented spec but the alternative might be worse by ditching all performance-increasing trinkets and leaving us mid/low-pack with zero fun.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Skadovsk View Post
    Now tell me how you got that immersus rank, besides double procs, how did you position yourself to hit everything, is that mostly tank's job or what, they're all over the place in my guild.
    There was absolutely no skill involved in my immerseus rank. My guild lets people pad on the adds one at a time haha. Some guilds are doing that because farm is long and boring so its fun to spice things up. As far as other guilds I think the most effective strat if that boss is difficult at least int he beggining was tanks tank them for vengaence for more damage. so they were stacked up. Thought the fight is a joke so we just aoe on top of the tank.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpheus View Post
    One could rephrase this - and I'm more inclined to favor what Maximum mentioned earlier - to state that at the beginning (when energy is scarce) it is much more important to get a feel for your rotation and not waste your resources (ie. going nuts on Thrash and FB in early MoP). Then at the end-tier you start gearing up and you enter an entire new arena of skill-cap which was totally unavoidable: doing the fight correctly with minimal downtime, minimal deaths and making sure you're assigned to a task where you can be most optimal so that you have no opportunity loss when reacting to trinket procs. In the end, encounter design is a huge factor in this. We might be more inclined to think badly about early-MoP due to the sheer amount of ridiculous target swaps, downtime and aoe on the first two tiers (all bosses in MSV, 4 bosses in HoF, don't get me started on ToES).

    Rune is a good example for this. Even if you picked it up in LFR with ~510 ilvl it would still be extremely difficult to pull off optimally, especially with the old 20-second Renataki. Add to that the huge amounts of target-swaps and aoe during ToT progression and you end up with a class that's hard to play and ends up mid-pack. However, once you gear up and start developing your muscle memory and throw that against a ton of singletarget-heavy fights with damage modifiers (ok, and a random buff to rip) and you get the single highest dps class in the game. Unfortunately, the skill-cap at this avenue consists of playing "defensively" to make sure you do not incur any opportunity cost (so you can reapply bleeds) while reacting to a specific boss encounter.
    This can cause a lot of toxic behavior during progression though, especially in a utility-heavy raid like SoO (towers on Galakras, add duty on Sha, Siegecrafter Belt, nazgrim adds, ...) where target-swapping and boss downtime are the norm. I'm happy blizzard decided to scrap this negative feedback loop and re-evaluate our dps rotation and capabilities but it's more than likely that they're going to over-simplify us for the first couple tiers until they figure out the do's and don'ts of whatever they'll come up with. This might shy away a lot of people from an already under-represented spec but the alternative might be worse by ditching all performance-increasing trinkets and leaving us mid/low-pack with zero fun.
    I completely agree with what you just stated.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpheus View Post
    One could rephrase this - and I'm more inclined to favor what Maximum mentioned earlier - to state that at the beginning (when energy is scarce) it is much more important to get a feel for your rotation and not waste your resources (ie. going nuts on Thrash and FB in early MoP). Then at the end-tier you start gearing up and you enter an entire new arena of skill-cap which was totally unavoidable: doing the fight correctly with minimal downtime, minimal deaths and making sure you're assigned to a task where you can be most optimal so that you have no opportunity loss when reacting to trinket procs. In the end, encounter design is a huge factor in this. We might be more inclined to think badly about early-MoP due to the sheer amount of ridiculous target swaps, downtime and aoe on the first two tiers (all bosses in MSV, 4 bosses in HoF, don't get me started on ToES).
    That was kind of my point with proc snap-shotting: its loss in terms of skill required to execute properly as Feral to trinket procs is really low on the totem pole compared to other factors, and what actually causes the challenges changes as we gear up or the design of an encounter. Adjusting to encounters via things you can control takes skill, adjusting to RPPM is luck since there's very few times you can predict when a trinket will likely proc (namely the start of an encounter and extensive downtime). Regardless, I believe that the majority of skill for a Feral lies with adjusting to encounters/mechanics while performing the Feral rotation.

    However, we might be looking a little too far ahead or making too many assumptions about what lies in the future for Ferals. Some people are worried that the snap-shotting removal will put Feral damage in a bad spot, but I'm fairly confident Blizz will adjust the damage output to make it work in the end (the procs, although not snap-shotted, still have the potential to alter the basic Feral rotation anyways depending upon how abilities are scaled). Some people are worried about the complexity of the class will disappear, however Ferals are still likely one of the hardest specs to execute properly even without snap-shotting... and that's probably a huge reason why the spec is under-represented or generally less played regardless of content.

    While having fun playing a class/spec is important, is it more feasible to believe the majority of people that try Ferals would not have fun and/or abandon the spec because it was too easy or too hard to function at an acceptable level?
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    That was kind of my point with proc snap-shotting: its loss in terms of skill required to execute properly as Feral to trinket procs is really low on the totem pole compared to other factors, and what actually causes the challenges changes as we gear up or the design of an encounter. Adjusting to encounters via things you can control takes skill, adjusting to RPPM is luck since there's very few times you can predict when a trinket will likely proc (namely the start of an encounter and extensive downtime). Regardless, I believe that the majority of skill for a Feral lies with adjusting to encounters/mechanics while performing the Feral rotation.

    However, we might be looking a little too far ahead or making too many assumptions about what lies in the future for Ferals. Some people are worried that the snap-shotting removal will put Feral damage in a bad spot, but I'm fairly confident Blizz will adjust the damage output to make it work in the end (the procs, although not snap-shotted, still have the potential to alter the basic Feral rotation anyways depending upon how abilities are scaled). Some people are worried about the complexity of the class will disappear, however Ferals are still likely one of the hardest specs to execute properly even without snap-shotting... and that's probably a huge reason why the spec is under-represented or generally less played regardless of content.
    Mages have had similar issues with Ignite-rolling since vanilla (ie. being either too addon-reliant or too easy) and they've now been left with an iteration which is more or less brainless. I believe the fear is justified. People who found ferals and druids in general fun will probably still cling to their classes due to the uniqueness it offers but...

    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    While having fun playing a class/spec is important, is it more feasible to believe the majority of people that try Ferals would not have fun and/or abandon the spec because it was too easy or too hard to function at an acceptable level?
    [cont'd] ... but I believe the more important factor is how attractive a feral is to a raid (leader). Throughout all expansions we've seen the least raid utility and raid cooldowns of all melee. Right now, we're pretty much the highest single-target DPS in the game which essentially makes us "wanted" in a nit-picky 25man environment, but if the so-called raid cooldown arms race continues and we end up with either a) sub-optimal (low/mid-pack) dps, b) static or constrained rotation (bad at target swaps, no ranged dps capabilities or high rampup aoe) or c) low utility we'll be facing some TBC-esque discrimination again.

    Hullaballoonatic is trying to come up with suggestions which build our strengths in the latter two categories but ultimately Blizzard's decision on how much time and brain power is invested in "fine-tuning" our new models along with encounter design is going to make or break a lot of people's enjoyment of the game (unless you're willing to dish out 60 bucks and cater your guild with an under-represented raid spot).
    Last edited by Alpheus; 2014-02-18 at 08:46 PM.

  10. #250
    The only way feral will become a desirable melee class for WoD is one of two ways. 1) get a proper raid damage reduction CD (pigs might fly) or (what I'd personally like to see) is 2) all raid damage reduction CDs except healer and tank ones are sodded off to make it an easier selection for guilds who want to make the most of each person in a progress raid. All of this is said with a view that a guild wants to pack as much as possible in to a raid in terms of CDs.

    And if we aren't doing insane dps then we, unfortunately, aren't that much of an attractive option to our old adversary, ze rogue given higher competition for raid spots in WoD.

    I'm cautiously optimistic that Blizz will manage to get us in a decent spot after some time on the beta but I fully expect it to make me cry the first few months of testing it until they hit a good balance. Fingers crossed!

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    Passive
    Mastery now instead affects direct damaging abilities. Increases damage of direct damaging abilities when none of your bleeds are affecting your target (higher(40%) for shred, less(20%) for ravage, swipe, and bite).


    I'd appreciate a number crunch from you, though, sten, as I think this could be phenomenally broken for burst damage in pvp, and your ideas for how a meaningful and interesting shift from bleeds to direct damage could work while still giving a competitive throughput increase vs the other level 100 talents.
    The shadow priests I know think that their previewed direct damage talent is terrible because of how badly it trivializes a single-target rotation. That said, the one interesting thing about Divine Clarity is that it doesn't actually make your DoTs any weaker -- so you can still DoT some targets and use direct damage against others. All you're giving up is a different talent in the tier.

    Your proposal is different because it would also make bleeds much weaker (by removing the mastery effect), taking away even that option to use direct damage against some targets and bleeds against others. All you'd have is direct damage with a greatly simplified rotation, and I don't think there's anything interesting about that.
    Last edited by Aseyhe; 2014-02-19 at 11:44 PM.

  12. #252
    But you'd have to change the mastery without the talent significantly devaluing mastery for ferals that take that talent (to nearly nothing).

    There is, however, a clear desire for damage to be shifted from dots to direct damage, and I'm wondering how best to accomplish that. Plus, in the proposed model, bleeds would be weak, but presumably worth casting.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    But you'd have to change the mastery without the talent significantly devaluing mastery for ferals that take that talent (to nearly nothing).

    There is, however, a clear desire for damage to be shifted from dots to direct damage, and I'm wondering how best to accomplish that. Plus, in the proposed model, bleeds would be weak, but presumably worth casting.
    If dots are weak but worth casting then you're just adding another ramp-up element to our dps thus making direct damage useless for aoe considering that whatever it is that makes bleeds "worth casting" will no doubt have to be applied to all targets.
    Last edited by Alpheus; 2014-02-21 at 11:26 PM.

  14. #254
    I don't want direct damage buff in cost of mastery, it is good as it is, don't understimate almost-undispellable dots power, no need to reinvent a bicycle and change things that working well..
    I don't want to smash buttons like dk or warriors do, same ability but with different names though, bleeds bring unique DoT element in our melee gameplay
    especially in pvp, putting bleeds and runaway with trollface, saving your ass from big hits and let target die eventualy...

    I will say it again, OP you don't like how class played, you go choose from other 11x3 specialization.
    Last edited by Zstr; 2014-02-20 at 03:52 PM.

  15. #255
    Alright, thoughts on this one?

    Feral
    Vicious
    Passive
    Using Ferocious Bite causes your next two Ravages to be free.

  16. #256
    Stood in the Fire Paloro's Avatar
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    That would certainly create a more interesting rotational change. Think about it at the end of an expansion though, when cp's are pretty easy to come by, wouldn't that make it the default choice? It would also give us some sort of reverse execute (if they keep increased crit rate >80% target hp).

  17. #257
    Assuming that ravage without stealth is too radical change I would give this 100-level talent downvote.

  18. #258
    Stood in the Fire Paloro's Avatar
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    Also, I forgot to mention that some sort of chance to proc would have to be added to it so people don't use a 1 cp FB

  19. #259
    Feral
    Vicious
    Toggle (off the GCD obviously)
    When toggled, in addition to increasing bleed damage, Razor Claws also increases the damage of combo point building abilities and Ferocious Bite.



    Viciousness (passive of Vicious only if toggled on)
    When building combo points on a new target, points stored on previous targets will automatically be redirected to your current target, Additionally Ferocious Bite refreshes all the Rips and Rakes within 100 yards by 2/3 seconds and consumes the bleeds on the target damaged by the ferocious bite, when the target is below 25% bleeds will no longer be consumed for that target. (last part is so vicious is not used to boost single target above execute)
    Rake and Rip periodic damage cannot be critical hits. while active.


    Vicious-less (debuff after toggling Vicious off)
    Rake and Rip periodic damage cannot be critical hits.
    Duration 3 seconds.

    (So you don't just apply tons of rip and rakes to a council fight, refresh bleeds, and turn vicious off so they all crit and once they're about to run out you turn it on and hit FB... well it sounds like something awesome to min max but it also sounds clunky, its just an option, I would say no to this debuff)



    Pretty much an "advanced" form of blade flurry that allows you to switch from normal feral rotation to target switching machine with a ton of burst that also keeps your rip active on the "main boss(es)" while you're off biting stuff, so switching like a good kitty increases your overall damage.
    It will also eventually help ferals excel in council fights as more gear is available by keeping all but one target with bleeds active.

    Council fight example.
    Picture protectors, apply rip and rake to rook and he, turn vicious on and spam bites on sun forever until they go away.

    Nazgrim example.
    Normal rip and raking boss, defensive stance pops, you leave nazgrim with at least a few seconds of rip and rake left, pop vicious switch to shamans or whatever and start biting them hard with no ramp-up or loss of combo points, while bleeds are still hurting the main boss.


    There will also give you a fine balance of crit, mastery and maybe even haste who knows, with the 2 free ravage idea its pretty much ALL CRIT FUCK MASTERY.


    Too complex?
    Well it better fucking be, I'm losing MUH snapshotting.



    Surprise change, Glyph of Fearie Fire
    Increases Fearie Fire range by 15 yards.
    Ravage critical strikes automatically applies 3 stacks of weakening armor (not fearie fire or else rogue pvp moaning ensures).
    Last edited by Skadovsk; 2014-02-21 at 03:06 AM.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    Alright, thoughts on this one?

    Feral
    Vicious
    Passive
    Using Ferocious Bite causes your next two Ravages to be free.
    Wouldn't I end up just opening with ravage, then biting, then ravagingx2, then biting, then ravaging x2 etc., etc.,

    Even if the bite required 5 combo points, with ravage able to crit I'm only looking to either rake or mangle before I bite, then ravagex2 again.

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