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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by mmokri View Post
    Dot tracker addon increases feral/afflock dps... thats blizzard point.
    This is partly why snap-shotting is going away, as I see two main reasons for the change (both of which happen with Ferals).

    The first is that it can cause scaling issues by snap-shotting procs. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, it does put direct-damage at a huge disadvantage compared to those DoT people. Add on top that it can cause some crazy results and completely skew damage spreads, it's just asking for trouble when it comes to balancing.

    The second reason, and probably the bigger one as mmokri is implying, you need an add-on to play effectively. With snap-shotting in place, you would need to know the exact value of bleeds depending upon multiple combinations of buffs (such as RoR, Dancing Steel, another trinket proc, and any combination of the above... toss on DoC for kicks, too!)... there's a reason we use an add-on or WA to track the strength of bleeds, because it really is complicated. Even with the added help, how many people know at which threshold of bleed values you would overwrite Rip/Rake compared to the new strength of the bleed you could potentially put it? While I think some of us could handle juggling these variables even w/o the use of something to track bleed strength, it's insane to think the majority of the WoW population could.


    All that being said, I don't think the complexity of the Feral rotation should be how fast someone can do math on the fly... and this is coming from someone that loves doing math. Imagine people that hate doing math... I've been hit by flying Calc books in the name of my spouse hating math.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    ftfy.

    >.>
    implying there's guilds that matter




    anyway, with snapshotting gone, we're reduced to a basic resource management class and without dot clipping that job becomes a whole lot easier. Of course this is ignoring the possibility that lunar inspiration turns out to be as bad as it looks right now, making passive savage roar the only option for single target fights. Literally afk.

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post

    The second reason, and probably the bigger one as mmokri is implying, you need an add-on to play effectively. With snap-shotting in place, you would need to know the exact value of bleeds depending upon multiple combinations of buffs (such as RoR, Dancing Steel, another trinket proc, and any combination of the above... toss on DoC for kicks, too!)... there's a reason we use an add-on or WA to track the strength of bleeds, because it really is complicated. Even with the added help, how many people know at which threshold of bleed values you would overwrite Rip/Rake compared to the new strength of the bleed you could potentially put it? While I think some of us could handle juggling these variables even w/o the use of something to track bleed strength, it's insane to think the majority of the WoW population could.
    You need add-ons to even do Flex so this is a cop out by Blizzard. Trinkets are so much stronger than everything else that if you are just tracking the trinkets your'e over 90% of the way there.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    All that being said, I don't think the complexity of the Feral rotation should be how fast someone can do math on the fly... and this is coming from someone that loves doing math. Imagine people that hate doing math... I've been hit by flying Calc books in the name of my spouse hating math.
    Hah. The remark on doing math on the fly makes me think of powershifting in Burning Crusade. Energy regenerated 20 at a time in 2-second intervals; shifting reset your energy to 40 but also reset the energy regeneration tick timer. So you wanted to shift with as little energy as possible, but you also wanted to shift as soon as possible after an energy tick, and that meant you needed to plan in advance to empty out your energy the moment you got an energy tick.

    So for example, an "optimal" energy value would be 64, because you could shred to 22 and then shred to 0 on the next energy tick, powershifting a GCD later. (Shred, mangle, and rip cost 42, 40, and 30 energy respectively.) Of course, realistically it would be pretty rare to reach 64 energy (unless you were really lazy about powershifting) due to how the modular arithmetic worked out. Working in mod 20, shred would subtract 2 from your energy count, rip would subtract (or add) 10, and mangle would make no change. A powershift would reset your "energy mod 20" to 0, and then it would tick down 18, 16, 14, ... as you shredded (also dropping by 10 on a rip). The optimal "energy mod 20" with which to start the above powershift sequence would be 4, since any energy above 4 would be wasted -- but due to the way it effectively ticked down with shred, you'd typically powershift at a higher "energy mod 20" just to increase the overall number of powershifts you do.

    Sorry, just reminiscing. It was a fun mechanic to think about.
    Last edited by Aseyhe; 2014-03-19 at 12:34 PM.

  5. #425
    Until you screwed it up that one time and oom in caster form!

  6. #426
    Yeah, Malthoreniel realized you could creatively use [form] as a flag to conditionally /stopmacro.
    At the time, we could also cancel buffs from Lua (like drop form based on energy.)
    http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic...read/?p=735515

    I wrapped it up in a little addon that could factor in your energy regen and simplify the corresponding macros.
    http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic...read/?p=737036

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by raffy View Post
    At the time, we could also cancel buffs from Lua (like drop form based on energy.)
    So OP! I'll never understand how they didn't realize giving people full access to the API was a bad idea.

    Feral Druid Maintainer of SimC // Moderator at Fluid Druid forums
    Pawkets' Armory
    // Pawkets' Pro Raiders // <Forgotten Aspects>

  8. #428
    Hey, I don't have a wow account running at the moment, but can you guys please ask in the wow source thread how the devs are planning on maintaining the infamously complex depth to the feral rotation in a post-snapshotting world? I am terrified at the possibilities and I would like the devs to know that the feral community, which is notoriously overlooked, seriously appreciates that complexity that we've always been offered.

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    Hey, I don't have a wow account running at the moment, but can you guys please ask in the wow source thread how the devs are planning on maintaining the infamously complex depth to the feral rotation in a post-snapshotting world? I am terrified at the possibilities and I would like the devs to know that the feral community, which is notoriously overlooked, seriously appreciates that complexity that we've always been offered.
    Based on conversations that took place at Blizzcon the designers are aware of how much Ferals will be affected by the snapshotting change.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Interesting news. I got Celestalon to confirm our bleeds will get the Pandemic mechanic for WoD: https://twitter.com/Tinderhoof/statu...18360662102016

  10. #430
    I just posted the following question on the EU Wow Source thread:

    Class Feral Druid:

    Question:

    Since Feral complexity is a hallmark of theirs, can you tell us how do you plan to keep said complexity in both PVE and PVP after the removal of Dot snap shotting since thats a huge part of feral DPS atm?.
    Would anybody mind asking this on the US forums please since i cant post there?

  11. #431
    Interesting news. I got Celestalon to confirm our bleeds will get the Pandemic mechanic for WoD: https://twitter.com/Tinderhoof/statu...18360662102016
    Interesting...
    I'm not an expert on pandemic but does the damage of the dot snapshot with the second application?
    If so I can see some complexity added to the rotation to get a longer duration Rip+rake up while buffed by both TF and DoC on the second cast. Sort of how locks used 2 casts of doom with the lei shen trinket to get the most out of each proc, but needing a lot more effort/planning to pull off.

  12. #432
    omg Still I think that pandemic/snapshot changes can be bluff because they are not official yet.

  13. #433
    pandemic + no snapshotting. feral is going to be rather easy....

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Kraineth View Post
    Interesting...
    I'm not an expert on pandemic but does the damage of the dot snapshot with the second application?
    If so I can see some complexity added to the rotation to get a longer duration Rip+rake up while buffed by both TF and DoC on the second cast. Sort of how locks used 2 casts of doom with the lei shen trinket to get the most out of each proc, but needing a lot more effort/planning to pull off.
    Dots will update dynamically so there will be no snapshotting of that type.

    That sounds less than great for Locks and especially bad for Ferals.

  15. #435
    I'm not convinced that's how it works. I am rather certain bleeds will still "snapshot" as they always have from DoC, Savage Roar, and Tiger's Fury.

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    I'm not convinced that's how it works. I am rather certain bleeds will still "snapshot" as they always have from DoC, Savage Roar, and Tiger's Fury.
    I agree, these abilities will ofc snapshot our bleeds but im more worried about them gutting the complexity of feral. If they leave the gameplay exactly as it is now but without the snapshoting then im affraid feral will be incredibly Dull

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    Dots will update dynamically so there will be no snapshotting of that type.

    That sounds less than great for Locks and especially bad for Ferals.
    Dots will only update dynamically with character stats such as mastery/ap/agility, It has been confirmed on more than once occasion that bleeds will snapshot DoC+TF, which is why I specifically mentioned those 2 and not things like trinket procs.

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by Kraineth View Post
    Dots will only update dynamically with character stats such as mastery/ap/agility, It has been confirmed on more than once occasion that bleeds will snapshot DoC+TF, which is why I specifically mentioned those 2 and not things like trinket procs.
    Then it defeats the entire premise of not using add-ons.

  19. #439
    what. none of those three bleed buffs require add-ons to very easily monitor.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    what. none of those three bleed buffs require add-ons to very easily monitor.
    I suspect having an addon to check the strength of my current bleed, even if it can have only three potential snap-shot buffs, would still make it easier to track than without.

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