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  1. #101
    Willie, I recommend reading the entire OP before commenting, as many of your concerns are addressed throughout the entire system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aseyhe View Post
    I think having TF available for every proc would kind of trivialize the whole system. It would be pretty hard to not make maximal use of every proc.

    (That's also the reason I didn't want the bleed effect to be additional to the normal clearcast effect: that would make it too easy.)
    Imagine the following rework then. One tier includes two tiger's fury charges, Your omen idea, and the moonfire talent. The other tier includes passive savage roar, supernatural, and dream of cenarius. Thoughts?

    - - - Updated - - -

    The other change I'm seriously considering is my thoughts on the stuns. Rogues have two stuns: an opener and a finisher. Druids are modeled after that but have 3. We probably don't need three, and I don't think we need as many as a rogue. I suggest pounce that can be used twice (with the glyph). One of my motivations for removing maim is because with the aoe finisher there'd just be too many finishers, but in hindsight I'm not sure that's necessary. This sort of goes to three options:
    • Mighty bash goes the way of the dodo. Maim and Pounce maintain their current functionality.
    • Mighty bash becomes a talent in the potent CC talent tier, and either Maim or Pounce gets cut.
      Potentially it would replace disorienting roar (which would become guardian baseline) or Ursol's Vortex (which could become spellcaster baseline) or even Typhoon. Of the three that it could replace, I'd probably be most happy with roar, since vortex and typhoon have great applications in pvp and pve and roar shares some functionality with bash.
    • My current idea, where Mighty Bash is gone. Maim is gone. Pounce becomes a baseline mighty bash, which can be glyphed to also be an opener.
      This feels like 1.5 stuns vs 3, which is what attracts me most. And plus, I think when Ferals bemoan the potential loss of mighty bash, they forget that disorienting roar can fill much of its pvp use.

    It's hard to consider, though, since I think this is the aspect of my proposed rework that gets the most criticism.

  2. #102
    For feral I would much rather see DoC made baseline and 90 talents be made purely healing utility talents as well as keep 45/75 cc talents as they are, moving those abilities to glyphs seems a bad idea considering id have to drop either 20% healing taken, aoe roar, or SR on my opener, which are all pretty mandatory for a raid environment.

    Every talent in 45/75 has had a place in a least a few fights this expansion and I know the same will hold true come WoD. As far as cc reduction I don't see our talents as the prime offenders so much as cyclone, removing maim seems fine to me since bash fills its place and at least the choice between bash/vortex/d-roar is somewhat compelling

    Overall I feel 3 straight throughput tiers is too many and I would like to see at least 1 of them be made more flexible based on whether a fight is based on aoe/single-target/target swapping. There are some classes that change talents fairly often based on a fight and I would prefer to see more of that in the future.

  3. #103
    DoC baseline just isn't going to happen, I don't think they will ever inflict that kind of "complexity" (quotes since it's really just more scary than complicated) on people as mandatory, they already made it clear that they wanted to simplify pretty significantly during 5.4 PTR.

    Concern of having more good glyphs is just a problem with GoCat Form and GoSavagery, they need to fix that garbage instead of letting it impede new potential ideas for glyph that aren't completely retarded.

    3 throughput tiers is pretty typical, most have 2 right now and most will have 3 next expansion since the level 100 talents are predominately character power-based (for obvious reasons).

    Feral Druid Maintainer of SimC // Moderator at Fluid Druid forums
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  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    Then you'll be happy to know that mighty bash is the only stunning CC I left for Ferals in this set of changes, which hasn't changed since I first made the thread. I suggest reading the entire OP.
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    [*]My current idea, where Mighty Bash is gone. Maim is gone. Pounce becomes a baseline mighty bash, which can be glyphed to also be an opener.
    This feels like 1.5 stuns vs 3, which is what attracts me most. And plus, I think when Ferals bemoan the potential loss of mighty bash, they forget that disorienting roar can fill much of its pvp use.
    man, I was so happy when I got Maim in tbc and you are going to get my life saver away
    you are so clueless...
    and Omen of Clarity 50% instead of free, fuck off...
    Trash dmg reduced,Swipe damage slightly reduced, wtf
    Pounce has a 1 minute cooldown. Bleed component removed.
    Heart of the wild no longer increases stam, agility, and intellect by 6% at all times.

    I don't see a rework of a class, but a fucking slap in the cat face, it's like nerf list to destroy a class...
    whats left of poor kitty - a reroll to chicken/tree, hello THE BURNING CRUSADE TIME IN DRAENOR
    Last edited by Zstr; 2014-01-25 at 08:06 AM.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    DoC baseline just isn't going to happen, I don't think they will ever inflict that kind of "complexity" (quotes since it's really just more scary than complicated) on people as mandatory, they already made it clear that they wanted to simplify pretty significantly during 5.4 PTR.

    Concern of having more good glyphs is just a problem with GoCat Form and GoSavagery, they need to fix that garbage instead of letting it impede new potential ideas for glyph that aren't completely retarded.

    3 throughput tiers is pretty typical, most have 2 right now and most will have 3 next expansion since the level 100 talents are predominately character power-based (for obvious reasons).
    The 3-throughtput tiers was more a comment on the OP's proposed talent tree in which the AoE lvl100 talent was omitted. I believe the lvl100 talents as blizzard presented them(disregarding current balance since we'll likely see a Direct damage buff and a change to make moonfire damage meaningful) are fairly compelling in that 1 talent would not always be the best choice. In fact most classes are getting an aoe talent in conjunction with the other 2.

    As far as DoC baseline, given the removal of dot snapshotting I don't see feral having much of a skill ceiling in the rotation outside of how many FB's can you fit in, and are you using OoC procs efficiently. All blizzard has to do is make it baseline and increase the duration of PS to like 12 seconds

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Kraineth View Post
    Overall I feel 3 straight throughput tiers is too many and I would like to see at least 1 of them be made more flexible based on whether a fight is based on aoe/single-target/target swapping. There are some classes that change talents fairly often based on a fight and I would prefer to see more of that in the future.
    I think this is fair. One of the great strengths of pure classes -- and to a lesser extent, hybrids with two specs of the same role that share gear -- is that they often have powerful options to adapt themselves to the encounter. Affliction for single-target, destruction for AoE. Fury for single-target, arms for cleave. Fire for mobility, arcane for controlled burst. Discipline for health buffers, holy for throughput (at least historically).

    Blizzard originally proposed rake spreading as a talent. There has been discussion in here about making it baseline, but rake spreading is an incredibly strong boon to our sustained AoE or cleave damage. To balance it, you could make rake or our AoE spells weaker to compensate, but that doesn't help us. The better alternative, perhaps, is to do just what Blizzard proposed: to give it a substantial cost in single-target damage by making it a talent.

    But then what do you pit it against? One thing to keep in mind about this talent tier is that you are forcing the players to pick these talents according to the encounter type, rather than their preference. Therefore, you can't put talents here that a lot of players wouldn't want to use. This immediately rules out passive savage roar (sorry Blizzard). It also rules out Dream of Cenarius here, if anyone was considering it.

    So we have two talent slots. One should be the optimal sustained single-target option. The other should be another versatility talent to help with some other type of encounter (like controlled burst, target switching, or ranged damage/downtime compensation). Neither should have too large of an effect on the playstyle, because again, the player's choice is forced.
    Last edited by Aseyhe; 2014-01-25 at 09:44 AM.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zstr View Post
    man, I was so happy when I got Maim in tbc and you are going to get my life saver away
    you are so clueless...
    and Omen of Clarity 50% instead of free, fuck off...
    Trash dmg reduced,Swipe damage slightly reduced, wtf
    Pounce has a 1 minute cooldown. Bleed component removed.
    Heart of the wild no longer increases stam, agility, and intellect by 6% at all times.

    I don't see a rework of a class, but a fucking slap in the cat face, it's like nerf list to destroy a class...
    whats left of poor kitty - a reroll to chicken/tree, hello THE BURNING CRUSADE TIME IN DRAENOR
    How about instead of being an ass and nitpicking on things without context, you actually read the whole OP and think about how all of those things work together, not separately and read others post on the discussion.
    He's just considering what we could lose out out maim, pounce, might bash and disorienting roar as they more or less all do the same thing. Not because he wants to make us weaker, but because BLIZZARD SAID they want to reduce the amount of cc in general. Might Bash was in the OP throughout most edits as a glyph, not anymore though as per the latest discussion.
    Omen of Clarity is 50 energy off, not 50% energy. Why? As he explains in the ravage changes part, he wants to get more gameplay out of ravage and omen of clarity.
    Thrash and Swipe damage are reduced, cuz we shouldn't be using Thrash single target, but he (or was it one of Blizzard's proposed lvl 100 talents) wants to make Thrash spread rake to all targets and have Swipe work with Primal Fury to give us another combo point if we crit. Our AoE would be way too overpowered if Thrash and Swipe continued to keep their damage.
    HotW losing it's damage and also NV, is cuz he's proposing to make the lvl 90 tier healing options only.

    So ye, instead of being so negative throughout the whole thread and only commenting on small parts of the big picture with stuff that doesn't make any sense, if you did understand the big picture, is utterly useless.
    He definitely isn't trying to ruin the spec. This is HIS wishlist of changes to make the spec better and if you paid attention to the whole discussion, you'd see that he's happily changing things around as others make suggestion and show faults in his thinking (we all make mistakes and fail to take every single thing that could affect/be affected by your ideas into consideration sometimes). The numbers are pretty much all just placeholders, to make the idea more clear. A lot of them can't even be "fixed" without actually being able to test it in game in PvE and PvP situations.

    As for your earlier bigger complaints... What do you care that he actually points out that situational requirements should be removed? He's saying either mangle or shred should be removed and if it's shred that stays, it shouldn't have its positional requirement anymore. Even if you think we're not affected in any way by it anymore anyway, then it's still there and it shouldn't be. So whether it is already "gone" or not doesn't matter, it's still a change to get it removed from the ability for real.
    He doesn't say anywhere that this is the only way Blizzard could change the spec and demands it to be done. This topic is for discussion - for throwing out ideas on what changes/fixes we would like to see for the spec, what Blizzard is/might be doing and how good or bad that is and what else is gonna affect us come the next expansion. So, I'll say it again - instead of being an ass, you could actually join in on the discussion. Give constructive criticism - what you would like to see changed or why other ppls ideas don't make sense and give reasoning (the person being an idiot or clueless about the spec etc is not a good enough reason). Before that though, if you're actually interested in being useful in this topic, you should read the whole thing again and try to grasp the big picture, instead of seeing the proposed changes as singled out cases. With all these walls of text and edits to the OP, it's understandable if any of us miss or forget some things, but in your case, it seems you only pick out specific sentences or words you don't like and bitch about them without considering them in the big picture.

  8. #108
    cuz we shouldn't be using Thrash single target
    Even though I'm not sure Blizzard intended it, I've come to enjoy thrash as part of single target rotation, and even though I reduced it's damage, I think it will still find its place in single target since I've similarly reduced its cost slightly, and it would now also generate one cp.

    Currently set up the level 45 talent tier to be moonfire vs dream of cenarius vs passive savage roar, and the level 100 tier as stenhaldi's omen idea vs boring rip buff vs supernatural. I think this is superior to the older iteration. I like this set-up for a couple reasons.
    • You have the option to take less complex passive talents in each tier, for players that want the spec to be easier.
    • You have the option in each tier to make the spec more complex.
    • I think the choice between moonfire, doc, and savagery is really appropriate, and adds to versatility of the spec.
    • I like that you can use these talents to maintain much of the dotsnapshotting behavior of MoP.

    I'm still having trouble with the level 100 talents. I think the second talent that extends rip duration is really boring, but I can't think of something better, and I'd like to fit a talent in here that makes casting wrath a fun mechanic, but I'm not willing to give up Supernatural or the Omen idea to accomplish this, and putting Wrath in there would offer the player zero options of altering how the spec is played in this tier. I'm really attracted to Supernatural and I'm being admittedly stubborn with it. It trivializes some aspects of the spec, but opens up a ton of versatility. I like the general aesthetic of the talent. I like the novelty of cats with rage.

    On the topic of trivializing Feral, I talked with Sten about two charges on Tiger's fury quite a bit and we both agreed its drawbacks are too great. It just absolutely trivializes much of the complexity of the spec, and with options in the tree like savagery and supernatural, it is just not necessary there. It was originally conceived as a method to help with target swapping, but I believe my suggested changes to Ravage and general aoe more than accomplish this. I'm actually really attracted to ferals being the highest single target dps if its played well at its most complex, and I'm not willing to give that up too much for the sake stronger aoe or target swap if that's a choice that would have to be made. The one thing I truly miss 2 stacks of tiger's fury for is PvP, where I think it would do wonders. So, I debated making it a major glyph, but I would want to incentivize Raiders to NOT take it somehow, like perhaps making other major glyphs better.

    I removed the instant cast wrath from predatory swiftness in my suggestions because it doesn't seem like very compelling behavior. I also made Ferocious Bite the AoE, because I can't think of a reason why this isn't the most appropriate. I removed the energy consumption aspect of Bite as well. With the ravage changes I don't think we'll have a problem dumping energy at all. There is the potential that thrash spreading rake is too powerful, so I'm debating making bite spread rake to one additional target per cp used, which I think can be compelling gameplay.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    Concern of having more good glyphs is just a problem with GoCat Form and GoSavagery, they need to fix that garbage instead of letting it impede new potential ideas for glyph that aren't completely retarded.
    I agree these are far too mandatory. What are your suggestions to fix this? I suppose GoCat could become default, but that might be too powerful.
    Last edited by hullaballoonatic; 2014-01-25 at 11:48 AM.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Obblivion View Post
    How about instead of being an ass and nitpicking on things without context, you actually read the whole OP and think about how all of those things work together, not separately ...bla bla bla...considering them in the big picture.
    Big picture is consist of those single changes that make that overall look, he is changing core abilities making them work completly other way
    Viewing from overall `big picture` it's becoming something other and not a class spec I used to play from tbc to now ,This things I don't like to be touched
    Where then a context I must pick on, coz he wasn't providing it, even now with text below green: it's a bad appeal to placement feral class have finnaly in PvE and PvP aspect of the game and fun of it's high, but rewarding skillcap playstyle
    Or would you expect a whole thread of positive comments: ̶A̶w̶e̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶k̶ ̶m̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶k̶e̶e̶p̶ ̶u̶p̶,̶ ̶b̶l̶i̶z̶z̶a̶r̶d̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶i̶d̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶!̶ ; When person who have no expirience, relaying on his previous comments, trying to change something he don't understand how it works and would have effect on peoples who plays both side heavy from the early days and don't want a radical changes that will made them unreliable and force to reroll

    - - - Updated - - -

    Sry I'm so bad and evil in your fluffy world

  10. #110
    Field Marshal Obblivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    Even though I'm not sure Blizzard intended it, I've come to enjoy thrash as part of single target rotation, and even though I reduced it's damage, I think it will still find its place in single target since I've similarly reduced its cost slightly, and it would now also generate one cp.
    Oh ye, that's what I meant, pretty sure Blizzard didn't intend it to be used on single target, but same as you, I do like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zstr View Post
    Big picture is consist of those single changes that make that overall look, he is changing core abilities making them work completly other way
    Viewing from overall `big picture` it's becoming something other and not a class spec I used to play from tbc to now ,This things I don't like to be touched
    Where then a context I must pick on, coz he wasn't providing it, even now with text below green: it's a bad appeal to placement feral class have finnaly in PvE and PvP aspect of the game and fun of it's high, but rewarding skillcap playstyle
    Or would you expect a whole thread of positive comments: ̶A̶w̶e̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶k̶ ̶m̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶k̶e̶e̶p̶ ̶u̶p̶,̶ ̶b̶l̶i̶z̶z̶a̶r̶d̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶i̶d̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶!̶ ; When person who have no expirience, relaying on his previous comments, trying to change something he don't understand how it works and would have effect on peoples who plays both side heavy from the early days and don't want a radical changes that will made them unreliable and force to reroll

    - - - Updated - - -

    Sry I'm so bad and evil in your fluffy world
    Well I've played feral since TBC aswell and as far as I'm concerned, feral has changed loads every expansion (and even with some patches/next tier gear sometimes) and although I agree that feral seems pretty great now, Blizzard announced some changes coming in WoD that are going to change our playstyle plenty already.
    A lot of the changes you didn't like that the OP has, do make a lot more sense in the big picture, but seem completely stupid on their own, that's why the big picture matters. He is providing context, maybe it was somewhat lacking initially, but the OP has definitely improved a lot since the first edition.

    "Noone" likes changes, but they are coming one way or another. Surely you don't think feral is 100% perfect right now, I'm sure there's at least one or 2 (possibly different) things about the spec currently that every feral dislikes (and obviously it will continue to be the same in the future, just because people are different).
    That's what the discussion here is for - to talk about what changes we would like in addition to what Blizzard already announced or how we'd like to do their changes differently (not that there's much info out yet) or hell, even just to bitch about how much we hate one change or another.

    As I already said - No, all the comments don't have to be and likely can't be positive, but they need to be constructive. It's useless to say the suggested changes are stupid just because the people behind them are stupid (you can't really know if they are or not...) or that they have really no idea about the class (do you actually even know how experienced hullaballoonatic or the other people posting here really are? If you're only going by his posts here, then I just think you are wrong). Stenhaldi (one of the best raiding ferals out there) and Aggixx (one of the best feral theorycrafters) as an example agree with a lot of things in the OP and if they don't, they suggest how to change it or just say that it's a bad idea and then explain why they think so. That is how you get a meaningful discussion going that could end up with the OP being something that a lot of the ferals discussing here can agree to, but obviously everyone is not gonna like everything and if Blizzard will see this and use any of it, is impossible to tell.

    This post of yours was much more constructive, if you keep that up, maybe you could actually turn the discussion around on some things with your PoV. You don't like change, but it's coming 100% - if you can't handle accepting that, then this topic just clearly isn't for you and if you don't like what you see towards the end of the beta, then I guess you do have the chance to re-roll or quit or w/e you or anyone else decides to do in light of the changes.

  11. #111
    Zstr, I think I can sympathize with your concerns. The comment you had about really being happy when maim was added rings a bell. There's definitely an appeal to maintaining the gameplay that existed from old times that you really enjoyed. I've been playing feral druid since early in vanilla, and though I wasn't very good, I latched onto NS feral pretty early, and thought it was clever and unique. When Blizzard announced the new talent system for MoP and I was able to get NS again, it triggered a rush of nostalgia. Now blizzard has taken it away again.

    But I understand, and I think you do, too, that over time the metagame shifts, and classes simply can't stay the way they have been forever. Feral druids have been forced to adapt. The way in which they have in MoP has put us in an increasingly better position every tier, and for PvP it was going great until some harsh nerfs. The question simply becomes "does this certain aspect of the class need to be changed?" (If I'm not mistaken your biggest concerns are with my suggested changes to our stun kit and also to losing positional requirement gameplay) The answer to the question, I believe, however, is a resounding yes. Our stun kit needs to be changed. Not only per blizzard's orders, but I think we've strayed too far in the wrong direction.

    Since when did we get more reliable stuns than rogues? I have few doubts blizzard is going to address this, and I'm most certain they will just blatantly remove mighty bash, but I want to keep it! I don't want to have a carbon copy of the rogue's stun toolkit. I want cats to be different. This is why I suggested the stun kit I did.

    Concerning positional requirements: this argument has been made to death. Positional requirements are a failed concept in this game. Because Blizzard does not design the game to accommodate positional requirements, they've been forced to buff mangle to the point that there is no longer any rewarding feeling of finally being able to pull the shreds off. In fact, raiders don't even use shred as their cp builder anymore! Considering blizzard's design philosophy over the course of the last few expansions and leading into the next one, I'm all but certain they are planning to remove this mechanic, since it is not compelling or deep gameplay. I will not speak for others, but considering I've been gnashing my teeth in frustration over this aspect of the spec for nine years, I'm exceptionally welcome to this potential change.

    I am happy to discuss precise criticisms with the model I presented.
    Last edited by hullaballoonatic; 2014-01-25 at 07:32 PM.

  12. #112
    Ferals was copy of rogues, it have CP, steath etc
    Every expansion blizzard is trying to make spec relaible and on pair with all others. In classic it not really exist everyone was rolling healing or tanking and chicken from 1.8.x; tbc it was bad coz numbers wasn't balance enough, but still it was a hybrid spec bear/cat with rotation of steath opener, shred, bleeds, fb. Since Wrath spec had some love.Kittens damage become on same line with others appeared a reason to play it. It's still was same shred from behind, bleeds,swipe, FB +SR. Cataclysm get the spec higher with mastery addition, but abilities stays the same with some fun addition set bonuses like leap+revange people mention, but during that time ferals faced a challange on some `face to the raid` bosses.in MoP Developers listened they buffed Mangle making spec usable in those situation, plus they have added Trash so AoE won't be a spamable 1 button, but overall main abilities stays same Shred, bleeds, FB, swipe (plus snapshotting coz design of trinkets).
    That is a huge reason why I still stay in higher level progression/ranks, I have expirience from past, know a core abilities spec used, as they still same from many years, and have a reason in my mind for situational use.
    Now I see a complete conflict in my mind:
    FB is AoE ability when it used to be a single target finisher
    Revange is combo builder, when it used to be a BOOM steath opener
    Swipe a simple 1 button AoE of which I always on top of meters have to be nerfedm and now it consists of 3 ability
    Abilities that saving my ass in PvP:Bash, Maim, Pounce, Might of Ursoc gone, when Cyclone already useless now.(even with lots of CC nowdays there shouldn't be none that what make a huge part of skillcap in PvP ,coz as example roots are only valiable against melee and hiberante only against beasts)
    I can speak of how Soothe is usefull in some situation, how 20k mana from Innervate can save someone
    etc
    And again you say I should look from a big picture, but what is overall? if it's consist of those little parts, those small changes will construct the whole picture of the class:
    if there is no valaible CC, what then a point to take it in arena if it can't neutrlize one target to nuke another...

    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    But I understand, and I think you do, too, that over time the metagame shifts, and classes simply can't stay the way they have been forever. Feral druids have been forced to adapt.
    Who would welcome a radical changes when class was same all expansions of it's core components, additions were added, numbers were changed to adopt in the class competion and this doesn't put us on the bottom of DPS list and uselessness in battle against other players. Cats are fun and challenged as they are, not every class is perfect, coz bosses design and PvP situation are different. That what is game about and blizzard's philosophy is bring player who likes to play class he chose, not the class itself, coz it's overpowered in all aspects

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Aseyhe View Post
    Blizzard originally proposed rake spreading as a talent. There has been discussion in here about making it baseline, but rake spreading is an incredibly strong boon to our sustained AoE or cleave damage. To balance it, you could make rake or our AoE spells weaker to compensate, but that doesn't help us. The better alternative, perhaps, is to do just what Blizzard proposed: to give it a substantial cost in single-target damage by making it a talent.
    I was never a fan of the SR passive talent to begin with, it just seems boring and even if FB is buffed heavily to make it worthwhile, it shouldn't be more powerful than anything else on it's tier.

    I had come up with this idea awhile back but I would really like some ability to consume bleeds on a target to deal direct damage, numbers would maybe have to be re-balanced as an ability that could deal millions of damage in one hit seems a little excessive, but a short cooldown to help burst down important targets would be nice. Maybe take a lesson from marked for death and have it reset if the target dies within x seconds

    I would also like to see where the Moonfire talent goes, as that could do a number of things to help single target damage as well as cleave

  14. #114
    Made the following changes to OP:

    Pounce unchanged from live.
    Disorienting Roar made baseline for Guardian.
    Mighty Bash replaces Disorienting Roar in the Talent Tree, reduced stun duration from 5 to 4.
    Maim remains removed.

    If it wasn't noticed, I also made the following change in the OP:
    Ferocious Bite renamed Ferocious Tear. Now hits all enemies in 10 yards. Spreads rake to a number of targets equal to CPs used. Can be used without being in melee range and can use CPs tied to corpses the same as Savage Roar does.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    Made the following changes to OP:

    Pounce unchanged from live.
    Disorienting Roar made baseline for Guardian.
    Mighty Bash replaces Disorienting Roar in the Talent Tree, reduced stun duration from 5 to 4.
    Maim remains removed.

    If it wasn't noticed, I also made the following change in the OP:
    Ferocious Bite renamed Ferocious Tear. Now hits all enemies in 10 yards. Spreads rake to a number of targets equal to CPs used. Can be used without being in melee range and can use CPs tied to corpses the same as Savage Roar does.
    Pounce unchanged from live means there is a bleed? Which does.... what exactly? I never really understood the reasoning for a bleed on both Pounce and Maim.
    I don't dislike your Ferocious Tear ability, but I think it's flawed. What if there are more than 5 enemies? At that point you'll end up applying single target rake again. Also it pretty much requires you to use an addon that shows debuffs on the health frames. Just because of that I doubt blizzard would do it.

  16. #116
    I think the pounce bleed is a silly method of differentiating the ability from kidney shot. I'd be fine with its removal for simplicity's sake, but it does scale a bit with the feral kit. It can be a little bit of nice damage.

    I didn't elaborate here as I did in the OP, but Ferocious Tear prioritizes spreading rake to targets with the shortest durations of rake already applied to them. So if there are ten mobs, the second tear will have applied rake to all targets. If there are more than 5 targets, you're usually forgoing rake anyways (unless they live a very long time) and just doing trash swipe, so I don't see an issue.

  17. #117
    I would like to see DoC reworked and will do similar like Rune of Re-Origination. Proc for increased bleed damage.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasek View Post
    I would like to see DoC reworked and will do similar like Rune of Re-Origination. Proc for increased bleed damage.
    Stenhaldi suggested this as a replacement for Omen as a talent. I included it in the OP.

  19. #119
    I'm imagining it more as a bonus on top of the existing omen of clarity: it would increase the damage of all bleeds cast within 6 seconds after a clearcast proc. That way it changes fewer things (clearcasting is still there) but replicates the present gameplay of 10-second procs, since the clearcast itself is worth ~3 seconds of energy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    This is how I imagine the talent tiers.

    Level 15: mobility, as it is.

    Level 30: minor healing/survival, as it is.

    Level 45: relatively weak playstyle talents that aren't heavily influenced by the type of fight you're doing. Passive savage roar could go here. Dream of Cenarius could maybe go here. Basically talents that a lot of people might not want to be forced to use.

    Level 60: burst damage, as it is. Sustained damage versus minor controlled burst versus major cooldown.

    Level 75: crowd control, as it is, with whatever changes Blizzard sees fit for the CC metagame.

    Level 90: raid utility. Major utility cooldown (HotW) versus extra healing cooldown (NV, which should probably do its healing over a shorter duration) versus sustained healing.

    Level 100: powerful versatility talents. Rake spreading for AoE/major cleave fights. A strong single-target option (maybe the above clearcast snapshot idea, or maybe moonfire). And a third option for another kind of fight -- maybe controlled burst, maybe target switching, maybe downtime mitigation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I wonder if the moonfire talent could serve as a hybrid target switching and downtime mitigation talent by making moonfire generate more combo points the farther you are from the target.

    Then for the level 100 tier you'd have rake spreading for AoE, clearcast snapshots for single-target, and moonfire for various other situations.
    Last edited by Aseyhe; 2014-01-26 at 09:50 PM.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    I didn't elaborate here as I did in the OP, but Ferocious Tear prioritizes spreading rake to targets with the shortest durations of rake already applied to them. So if there are ten mobs, the second tear will have applied rake to all targets. If there are more than 5 targets, you're usually forgoing rake anyways (unless they live a very long time) and just doing trash swipe, so I don't see an issue.
    At the moment at least (because we obviously don't know about the scaling next xpac) we are only forgoing rake on more than 5 targets because managing those and thrash becomes too much of a pain along with the loss of melee hits and therefore OOC procs making the dps difference minimal. Also it doesn't really work well with DoC. If we just had your tear ability then I'm pretty sure we'd be applying rake to 8/9 targets rather than swiping.
    I should have looked at the OP though sorry.

    I wonder if the moonfire talent could serve as a hybrid target switching and downtime mitigation talent by making moonfire generate more combo points the farther you are from the target.
    That is genius. I would love "mis"using this for minuscule gains like running out and feral charging back in during DS.
    Last edited by Karlzone; 2014-01-26 at 10:27 PM.

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