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  1. #121
    I see we agree for the vast majority of the talent setup, exception the final tier. We both sort of imagine it as a versatility/throughput tier, but where we differ is that I'd rather it be another playstyle choice, and not a per-fight basis. To play my own devil's advocate though, there are two very important advantages to your system. Firstly, it allows rake spread by thrash in perhaps the only method that isn't overpowered. Secondly, the per-fight choices can be interesting decisions. Although there is the possibility that regardless of everything, rake spreading automatically will just be way too phenomenally powerful, which leads to your point that giving it to us by default in some capacity would buff our sustained aoe too much, which has never been something that is part of the feral kit, and would come at a significant cost.

    Hence my thoughts (which was actually your thought) that Bite could spread rake. I like the idea because the rake spreading would not be too powerful in a burst aoe situation, and in a sustained aoe situation it would take awhile to really ramp up the aoe. I don't think that's too powerful, and you could tweak it appropriately. I have it set up to be 1 rake spread per combo point, but it could go on a scale of 0/1/2/3/4 or 0/0/1/2/3

    If we just had your tear ability then I'm pretty sure we'd be applying rake to 8/9 targets rather than swiping.
    I'm rather certain Tear, which efficiently allows thrashing and swiping on top of it to spread rake would be very significantly higher dps than manually spreading rake. Tear works better with DoC than manual spread as well, since you lay a DoC rake, and spread that with tear, as opposed to currently your DoC is used in aoe typically once on a thrash, and depending once on a rake or a swipe.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm thinking about tier 45 being FF CP, DoC, and Savagery
    tier 100 would be Buffed Omen, Moonfire, and Supernatural

    I want to hang onto supernatural, but I'm being consistently further persuaded that it needs to be ditched. There are no options in the level 100 tier in my setup for people that don't want to drastically alter the feral rotation. An important thing to note is that buffed omen, and moonfire, are in ways also AoE talents, so could fit with bloody thrash.
    Last edited by hullaballoonatic; 2014-01-26 at 10:35 PM.

  2. #122
    It is true that powerful situational talents often make for a less interesting decision than talents that offer different ways of doing the same thing. The thing is, I'm not only concerned with providing interesting decisions. I am also concerned with ensuring spec viability over a range of encounters: see my earlier post (#106).

    This is why my thought is to confine the interesting decisions to the level 45 tier (for the most part) and focus the level 100 tier toward ensuring spec viability.

    (That said, there would still be a number of encounters where the appropriate level 100 choice would not be clear.)
    Last edited by Aseyhe; 2014-01-26 at 10:51 PM.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Aseyhe View Post
    This is why my thought is to confine the interesting decisions to the level 45 tier (for the most part) and focus the level 100 tier toward ensuring spec viability.
    Pretty much exactly my sentiments, looking at the lvl 100 talents that blizzard proposed it seems to me this was their thinking as well. Most all of the talents for DPS had various uses, granted some had an odd Utility talent mixed in with their throughtput talents as well.

    I think overall blizzard can improve current talent trees to prevent having to choose between more dps and more utility(at least I hope that isn't something that they actually want to happen), while also giving talents that adapt each spec to a fight, that way we see less of "X is not viable for Y fight" arguments.

  4. #124
    The main thing I want to see is pvp viability. I'm not talking about more cc or more defensives/heals. None of those things matter when the spec is as fundamentally broken like it is right now.
    1. Cyclone - holy fkn shit having to hardcast cyclone is the dumbest. In its current state of inconvenience, cyclone is only useable in a situation where all of your enemies are already controlled which might as well be never (a melee hardcasting a mere 5 second cc with no pushback protection that is a 20 yard range and having to switch stances to do so?.... bitch please)
    2. GCD bloat in MoP - Ever since mop hit pvp has been nothing short of a clusterfuck due to control being quadrupled and essentially the complexity of the game being reduced by the same factor because of it. And the only classes that thrive in such an environment are the streamlined ones (classes with reliable, instant cc on short cooldown, and defensives that are not overwhelmingly counter productive, and can deal damage with no ramp and no bull (IM TALKING TO YOU, SAVAGE ROAR)) The result of all the changes MoP saw through was that only the most conventionalized specs are viable, which feral is most certainly NOT

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Aseyhe View Post
    I wonder if the moonfire talent could serve as a hybrid target switching and downtime mitigation talent by making moonfire generate more combo points the farther you are from the target.
    That's definitely a really cool idea, and it's even open to a tiny bit of abuse without being too ridiculous. Add spawns far away, mouseover Moonfire x2 while autoing main target, Wild Charge when it gets a tad closer and immediately put full bleeds on it (that's assuming 1 bonus CP and primal fury, so you'd be at 4-5 CP).

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  6. #126
    High Overlord Raysere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    That's definitely a really cool idea, and it's even open to a tiny bit of abuse without being too ridiculous. Add spawns far away, mouseover Moonfire x2 while autoing main target, Wild Charge when it gets a tad closer and immediately put full bleeds on it (that's assuming 1 bonus CP and primal fury, so you'd be at 4-5 CP).
    Could use the same idea to maintain SR cheaply.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    I agree these are far too mandatory. What are your suggestions to fix this? I suppose GoCat could become default, but that might be too powerful.
    I can't imagine there's any remotely compelling reason to not make it baseline for feral, it's used by everyone for everything anyway as far as I'm aware. Savage Roar is a more difficult topic, but I don't think it would really be that weird if that was made baseline as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Karlzone View Post
    At the moment at least (because we obviously don't know about the scaling next xpac) we are only forgoing rake on more than 5 targets because managing those and thrash becomes too much of a pain along with the loss of melee hits and therefore OOC procs making the dps difference minimal. Also it doesn't really work well with DoC.
    That's not really the reason, the reason is because Swipe just does more DPE around that number of targets.

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  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    Hence my thoughts (which was actually your thought) that Bite could spread rake. I like the idea because the rake spreading would not be too powerful in a burst aoe situation, and in a sustained aoe situation it would take awhile to really ramp up the aoe. I don't think that's too powerful, and you could tweak it appropriately. I have it set up to be 1 rake spread per combo point, but it could go on a scale of 0/1/2/3/4 or 0/0/1/2/3
    If the entire purpose of Tear is to give rake an opportunity to shine in aoe situations then I'd argue it shouldn't be coupled to our rotation as a finisher but should act as a short cooldown instead. There are situations when you'd prefer to tunnel the boss while spreading bleeds on the off-targets. If tear acts as another finisher you have to maintain on top of roar and rip then you'd come into a situation when manually raking might still be more optimal thus creating extra redundancy in our rotation and devaluing Tear. If anything, maybe it would be better to have Thrash apply the same bleed as rake just at double the cost. That would essentially make rake optimal for single- and double-target scenarios but for everything else Thrash would be the obvious choice (thus removing the need to conduct two months of sims to find out on how many targets to stop raking. This might seem trivial now but it has been quite a challenge to finetune at MoP launch. Not many classes has such unintuitive "breakpoints" and I see no reason why we'd introduce more complexity from obfuscation instead of rich rotational components.

  9. #129
    I was sure I'd posted in here back on page 2 or 3 but can't see it. I'm loving this thread and finding it very constructive anyway, and have my own input to add. Regarding GoCat and GoSavagery, I can't see a reason for at least Cat to go baseline, and (working on the assumption that SR stays as is) Savagery also; these 2 glyphs are taken by a majority of Feral players both in PvP and PvE, and it greatly restricts our Glyph choices – I know I'd have loved to use GoShred on H Malk because he's turning around all the time while I'm Berserking, but I use Stamp Roar there instead to boost everyone during the first Blood Rage to clear orbs.

    On target switching, I know that having Rip more functionally similar to Rupture (fixed damage per tick, variable duration) was thrown around earlier on, and is actually a suggestion I made in the Cata beta. I can't really see a downside to it other than strengthening us up in an area where we are, perhaps, meant to be weaker. I did like the idea of using Ravage as an ability to aid target switching – perhaps guaranteeing a crit regardless of health or refunding energy if you don't have bleeds (maybe just Rip) on the target, similar to the Priest level 100 talent that increases the damage of Mind Spike if DoTs aren't present?

    Ferocious Tear is also a great idea; I've bandied around the idea of FB increasing bleed damage for X seconds in the past (as aggix mentioned earlier in the thread), as I think increasing it's interaction with our main sources of damage is a nice one, but Tear adds something for cleave fights as well – an area that Feral has traditionally been very weak in. The long and short of it is that Bite needs to be reworked in some fashion, as it's extremely underwhelming to dump 50 energy into an ability that only crits for about 350k.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    That's not really the reason, the reason is because Swipe just does more DPE around that number of targets.
    Since when that? o.o
    I suspect that change stems from RoR?

  11. #131
    Fun thread to read, ferals for life!

  12. #132
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    Fyi I'm only talking about PvP.

    A couple of things. First I'm not sure why you find hibernate to be either useless or OP. It's only usable vs other ferals and Hunter pets which makes it situational. Imo it adds a level of complexity to feral vs hunter or feral vs feral.

    I'm confused by your OoC change. Do you want it to proc more often and be less powerful when it procs? What's the reasoning behind this change?

    Not a fan of NS becoming baseline for ferals since they don't need it. They already have that mechanic. Plus it would screw balance and resto over with the loss of instant clone.

    Now to the meat of your changes. I'm concerned that ravage being usable whenever is too strong. Here's why. With your proposed change to tigers fury during berserk I could very well see this scenario:

    Talents are might of malorne, incarnation, blessing of the ancients. No need to apply savage roar which means extra cp and energy. Wait for OoC proc apply rip and rake. Pop incarnation and berserk, ravage twice, pop tigers fury, ravage, ferocious tear, shred.

    Here's why it's a problem. Rip and ravage hit really hard. They will both do 30% more because of ancients. Incarnation means they do damage every time you ravage. Those first two ravages will hurt but it's the ravage and tear after tigers fury that will do massive damage on top of the extra bleed damage from incarnation. It's just very very powerful.

    On another note I don't like the only direct damage finisher applying rake.

  13. #133
    Hibernate is useless or overpowered in PvP because it's only usable on ferals or hunters, in which case it is an instant cast long duration long range cc that shares very few DRs. It is completely unavoidable.

    The omen change to the RPPM system is to space out omen procs more consistently so we don't get a bunch in rapid succession consistently. The energy change is to make everything free except ravage, which would cost 10 energy under omen. This still rewards skilled players who ravage during clearcasting, but not so much higher in DPS than if you had just used shred.

    Blizzard is scaling back on instant CCs. For certain, Moonkins and Restos will be losing instant cyclone. Ferals use NS for spothealing and it's an important ability to increases lateral thinking and awareness in pvp (and raids) so you're not just tunneling a person forever.

    The scenario you describe to get a kill in pvp takes a lot of setup. It also banks on responding to Fury of Ivus in the best possible way, which, if you've played RoRO, you are aware is not always possible (and RoRO is 10 seconds). I'm fine with ferals taking that much time to have to set up a potential kill. And sure, it's bursty, but people can still react to it in a number of ways. You describe a kill that takes place over at least 4 or 5 seconds. That's plenty of time to see a bop or an iceblock or a bubble or powerful instant heals or damage mitigations or what have you.

    And finally, everything I talked about with tear just add to Bite. Tear would still fill the same role as Bite does today, just with the addition of being an effective aoe. Even if the rake spreading aspect weren't going to happen, I would still prefer Ferocious Bite become an AoE.
    Last edited by hullaballoonatic; 2014-01-27 at 06:34 PM.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    The omen change to the RPPM system is to space out omen procs more consistently so we don't get a bunch in rapid succession consistently.
    Moving to RPPM wouldn't make it less likely that you get successive procs. Its only consistency effect would be to greatly suppress the chance that you have to wait more than ~30 seconds between procs.

    Speaking of which, I'm still a little concerned about attaching a bleed buff to clearcasting due to the frequency of clearcasting procs. In particular, there's (depending on haste) about an 80% chance of getting a clearcast within ~24 seconds of the previous clearcast. In this view, you would be able to cast almost all of your rips under this buff.

    Realistically it's not quite that strong. Suppose you don't want to recast a buffed rip within ~10 seconds of recasting another buffed rip (because e.g. ferocious bite is strong enough). The precise formulation here gets a little more complicated, but if we discard any proc that occurs within 10 seconds of a proc that was not discarded, then the probability of getting a non-discarded proc within ~24 seconds of a previous non-discarded proc drops to about 60%. So in this view, you'd be casting ~60% of your rips under this buff. Maybe that's reasonable, especially if it's a talent competing against other strong options.

    - - - Updated - - -

    To add to this:

    You'd cast ~60% of your rips under the buff, but you'd have ~85% uptime of buffed rip. This assumes you get rip up on every non-discarded proc, which is likely a little too generous.

    You'd cast ~60% of your rakes under the buff, and have ~70% uptime of buffed rake. This assumes you get rake up on every proc, which is realistic.

    I assume
    • ~10% haste
    • 15s rake duration
    • 24s rip duration
    • clearcasts at 3.5 hasted RPPM
    • a proc is "discarded" (for rip purposes) if it occurs within 10s of a non-discarded proc
    • zero proc duration (i.e. I'm ignoring the possibility that you might refresh at the beginning or end or the proc, and instead assume you always refresh at the same point)
    Last edited by Aseyhe; 2014-01-27 at 07:36 PM.

  15. #135
    As I understand it omen has about a 15% chance to proc and cannot do so more than 3 times a minute. Am I waaaay off base?

    Clearcasting certainly occurs more often than RoRO. Having a talent that effectively immitates RoRO would be nice. Perhaps an entirely separate proc?

  16. #136
    For comparison, with re-origination under the same assumptions (except proc rate is 1.24 RPPM) you're casting ~25% of rips under the buff and getting ~43% buffed uptime, and casting ~26% of rakes under the buff and getting ~30% buffed uptime.

    I don't quite have the apparatus set up to handle two trinkets (just running a simple Monte Carlo that I threw together), but with two trinkets it should be close to ~65% buffed rip uptime (~41% of rips cast under buff) and ~50% buffed rake uptime (~42% of rakes cast under buff). (This is treating both trinkets as one trinket with the sum of the proc rates -- don't really want to go to the trouble of adding an independent proc right now.
    Last edited by Aseyhe; 2014-01-27 at 07:49 PM. Reason: fixed rake/rip distinction

  17. #137
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    Fyi I'm only talking about PvP.

    A couple of things. First I'm not sure why you find hibernate to be either useless or OP. It's only usable vs other ferals and Hunter pets which makes it situational. Imo it adds a level of complexity to feral vs hunter or feral vs feral.

    I'm confused by your OoC change. Do you want it to proc more often and be less powerful when it procs? What's the reasoning behind this change?

    Not a fan of NS becoming baseline for ferals since they don't need it. They already have that mechanic. Plus it would screw balance and resto over with the loss of instant clone.

    Now to the meat of your changes. I'm concerned that ravage being usable whenever is too strong. Here's why. With your proposed change to tigers fury during berserk I could very well see this scenario:

    Talents are might of malorne, incarnation, blessing of the ancients. No need to apply savage roar which means extra cp and energy. Wait for OoC proc apply rip and rake. Pop incarnation and berserk, ravage twice, pop tigers fury, ravage, ferocious tear, shred.

    Here's why it's a problem. Rip and ravage hit really hard. They will both do 30% more because of ancients. Incarnation means they do damage every time you ravage. Those first two ravages will hurt but it's the ravage and tear after tigers fury that will do massive damage on top of the extra bleed damage from incarnation. It's just very very powerful.

    On another note I don't like the only direct damage finisher applying rake.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    As I understand it omen has about a 15% chance to proc and cannot do so more than 3 times a minute. Am I waaaay off base?
    Clearcasting procs off autoattacks (with no internal cooldown) with a proc rate normalized to weapon speed (before haste) at 3.5 PPM. This means in cat form (which attacks 60 times per minute before haste), the proc chance per white attack is 3.5/60 ~= 5.83%. In bear form, it's 3.5/24 ~= 14.6%.

    On average, it procs 3.5*(1+haste)*(1-miss) times per minute. If you moved it to RPPM, it would be natural to just specify 3.5 hasted RPPM. Or maybe 3 hasted RPPM to account for the way the bad luck streak prevention inflates the proc rate.

    Adding another proc is an option. It would just be nice to not have to add another thing to display on the UI (especially the alert area, which Blizzard already covers with clearcasts and predatory swiftness).
    Last edited by Aseyhe; 2014-01-27 at 07:52 PM.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Aseyhe View Post
    Clearcasting procs off autoattacks (with no internal cooldown) with a proc rate normalized to weapon speed (before haste) at 3.5 PPM. This means in cat form (which attacks 60 times per minute before haste), the proc chance per white attack is 3.5/60 ~= 5.83%. In bear form, it's 3.5/24 ~= 14.6%.

    On average, it procs 3.5*(1+haste)*(1-miss) times per minute. If you moved it to RPPM, it would be natural to just specify 3.5 hasted RPPM. Or maybe 3 hasted RPPM to account for the way the bad luck streak prevention inflates the proc rate.

    Adding another proc is an option. It would just be nice to not have to add another thing to display on the UI (especially the alert area, which Blizzard already covers with clearcasts and predatory swiftness).
    Keep in mind though that Clearcasting is probably one of the rare "Resource" procs opposed to actual buffs, thus it having no ICD is actually making the effective advantage smaller because it might re-proc before you would consume it. Right now this only happens while "energy pooling" since we're playing rather conservatively to wait for procs but if this doesn't change in WoD a higher RPPM might not be such a bad idea. Of course this only applies to PvE, it would be totally ridiculous in PvP.


    ---

    Edit: hullaballoonatic, I just saw you reformatted the original post. My OCD is satisfied, I love you.

  20. #140
    Heh, thanks alpheus. I'm actually rather proud of this thread. I thought it would get no replies and fall into nothingness, but instead I've gotten fantastic feral discussion throughout. I wanted the OP to reflect that.

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