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  1. #1

    Feral WoD wishlist

    I believe these changes very poignantly address a lot of the biggest concerns including ability bloat, excessive crowd control, feral raid utility, feral inability to deal effective direct damage or target switching, tranq ineffectiveness, as well as pvp concerns in lack of survivability and lack of options for kill-potential outside of TF/berserk/incarnation/nv, and some other things. It is important to note that many of the changes work in tandem with others. It is important to read the entire list of changes to get a feeling for the big picture. Without further adieu:

    General
    • All positional requirements removed.
    • Mangle can no longer be cast in Cat Form.
    • Shred made baseline for druid. Energy cost reduced to 35 (down from 40)
    • Hibernate removed.
    • Soothe removed.
    • Faerie Fire removed.
    • Mark of the Wild is now a passive raid wide buff.
    • All Raid Wide passive buffs no longer have a range, instead automatically applying to all party or raid members.

    Feral Specialization
    • Nurturing Instinct now increases nature spellpower by 125% of your agility (up from 100%), but feral druids do not benefit from other sources of spellpower (except Heart of the Wild).
    • Omen of clarity reduces cost of next ability by 50 energy instead of making it free. Omen of Clarity procs should be more spaced and occur an average of 3 times per minute.
    • Ravage no longer requires stealth. Increased energy cost to 60.
    • Ravage energy cost reduced by 20 if used on a target over 80% health instead of increased critical strike chance.
    • Pounce no longer has a bleed component.
    • Rake no longer benefits from Primal Fury.
    • Ferocious Bite damage increased by 100% and no longer consumes additional energy.
    • Swipe now benefits from Primal Fury if it critically strikes your main target. It no longer deals extra damage if bleeds are present. Energy cost reduced by 5.
    • Rip can now additionally be extended by Swipe.
    • Thrash removed.
    • Innervate removed.
    • Tranquility removed.
    • Might of Ursoc removed.
    • NEW! Passive - Bloody Swipe
      Enemies hit by your Swipe will spread their current application of your Rake to another nearby enemy. Rake will not be spread to targets with higher durations of your rake already applied.
    • NEW! Passive - Unrestrained Ferocity
      Each use of Swipe causes your next Ferocious bite to deal an extra 8% damage to all enemies in a 7 yard radius up to 40%.

    Talents

    • Renewal now additionally increases maximum health by 30% for 20 seconds. Increased cooldown to 180 seconds.
    • Faerie Swarm removed
    • Mass Entanglement removed
    • Typhoon moved to tier 75
    • Dream of Cenarius moved to tier 45.
    • NEW! tier 45 talent - Touch of Elune
      Feral
      Lunar Inspiration
      Passive
      You can now moonfire in cat form. Moonfire costs 30 energy and generates 1 combo point. Nurturing Instinct now applies to all spellpower.
    • NEW! tier 45 talent - Might of Malorne
      Feral
      Savagery
      Passive
      Savage Roar is now passive
    • Incarnation reworked. Now has a 90 second cooldown and lasts 15 seconds for ferals. When you deal damage with a direct damage attack, your bleeds will instantly deal damage equal to half of their ticking value.
    • Mighty Bash removed.
    • Heart of the Wild no longer increases stam, agility, and intellect by 6% at all times, and has a 35 second duration (down from 45), but has two charges.
    • NEW! tier 90 talent - Blossoming Touch
      Your healing touch now heals all allies in a 5 yard radius of the target for 40% of the healing done
    • Nature's Vigil no longer has a damage component, and the healing additionally triggers off single target healing effects.
    • NEW! tier 100 talent - Blessings of the Ancients
      Feral
      Fury of Ivus
      Passive
      When Omen of Clarity procs, all bleeds cast in the next 8 seconds deal 35% more damage
    • NEW! Tier 100 Talent - Will of Malfurion
      Feral
      Vicious
      Toggle Effect
      When toggled, Razor Claws applies to all damage at 75% value, but bleeds can no longer crit. When toggled off, bleeds will remain unable to crit for 6 seconds.
    • NEW! tier 100 talent - Supernatural
      Feral
      Dire Cat
      Passive
      Replaces combo points with rage bar. CP generating abilities now generate 10 rage per would-be combo point. Finishing moves now cost 10 rage per would-be combo point. Cat form generates 3 rage per second while in combat. (does not replace energy)

    Glyphs
    • NEW! glyph - Glyph of Tiger's Fury
      Major
      Your Tiger's fury now has two charges, but no longer increases damage done.
    • NEW! glyph - Glyph of Maim
      Major
      Your Maim no longer requires combo points or energy, lasts 4 seconds, but has a 1 minute cooldown
    • NEW! glyph - Glyph of Mass Entanglement
      Major
      Your Entangling Roots now additionally affects all targets in a 7 yard range, but has a 30 second cooldown.
    • NEW! glyph - Glyph of Rip
      Major
      Your Rip ability lasts 4 seconds longer, but can no longer be extended by use of other abilities.
    • NEW! glyph - Glyph of Impale
      Major
      Your Skullbash ability now increases the mana cost of spells cast by the target by 20% for 10 seconds.
    • Glyph of Cyclone additionally allows the use of Cyclone in all forms.
    • Glyph of Dash reworked. Now gives Dash an extra charge.
    • Glyph of Cat Form healing benefit reduced to 15% (down from 20%).

    Items
    • Obtaining Fandral's Flamescythe places "the Druid of the Flames" in the toybox as a toggle effect. Maintains appearance only in combat when toggled on.

    -------------------------Explanations of Changes--------------------------
    There is just so much intricacy to the OP that I'm not sure I can succinctly address everything, but I'll explain the most important aspects as best I can:

    Ravage
    The new model for ravage is intended to fill a number of precise roles. Firstly, it is meant to take the place of shred as omen of clarity consumption. However, considering the increased potency of ravage over shred in the model, omen of clarity is altered so that it makes all feral abilities free except for ravage, which it limits to a cost of 10 energy. This still rewards skilled players without so severely punishing those without the necessary reaction time. As well, ravage returns as a method of dealing significant damage to short lived mobs like it did with its relationship to feral charge(cat) in cataclysm. In the current model, feral should be roughly capable of pooling energy and saving tiger's fury, then blowing 3-4 ravages and a ferocious bite to deal significant damage, though at the cost of the sustained damage on a presumed raid boss. It is also clearly an energy dump, filling in the place of thrash and ferocious bite. With a move that costs as much as 60 energy and only awards 1-2 cps, Ferals are very capable of slowing their cp generation while still managing their energy appropriately.

    AoE
    Feral in the current meta is extremely powerful in burst aoe situations and single target, but extremely limited in cleave and sustained aoe. The suggested changes are intended to improve feral's competency in these deficient areas without rising to any level of above average. The most interesting addition is Swipe's interaction with rake, which would cause the number of rakes present on the field to increase exponentionally (first 1, then 2, then 4, then 8, etc), which gives feral a significant ramp-up to its sustained aoe, while simultaneously limiting it by the duration of rake, which will be inherently less for each new mob it is spread to. The addition of swipe to primal fury makes it a good candidate for cp generation in 2 boss cleave fights, and giving swipe the ability to extend rip makes target swapping in those situations less burdensome. Cleave fights should prove to have exciting effects on our rotation.

    Ability Bloat
    Many of the cut abilities are in tandem with proposed global mechanic cuts. I assume the following: all raid buffs become passive (motw, pw:f, etc) buffs, enrage dispels are no longer raid mechanics, all raid-wide cooldowns are removed on non-healer specs, a vast scaling back of crowd control, removal of armor penetration, and finally removal of positional requirements. This cleans up Mark of the Wild, Soothe, Tranquility, Hibernate(from pvp), Faerie Fire, and Cat Mangle. On top of this, Feral innervate is useless, so that's gone. Finally I opt for two rather controversial removals: Thrash, and Might of Ursoc. The latter is baked into a talent, but the former is more complex. I don't think Thrash is a particularly interesting ability, and I baked in its usefulness as sustained aoe damage via my proposed interaction between swipe and rake, and thrash's use as a single target energy dump by providing Ravage in its place.

    Revised Talents and Glyphs
    Removing mighty bash is a method of scaling back instant crowd control (though this is partially replaced with glyph of maim). The two crowd control tiers are merged, maintaining the most interesting of the six, as well as making typhoon and ursol's vortex compete. Mass Entanglement is made into a glyph. Tier 45 is now occupied by an early throughput tier, which includes certain playstyle defining abilities like passive savage roar. Dream of Cenarius is moved to this tier, as it is more throughput than raid utility. Tier 90, on the other hand, becomes entirely a healing tier. Incarnation is altered to be a medium strength, length, and cooldown burst ability which needs ample set-up but with great payoff in the pvp environment.

    New Talents
    The three throughput tiers: 45, 60, and 100 are intended to provide the player with a level of choice in how complex they wish Feral to be. Talents like Dream of Cenarius and Fury of Ivus are intended to maintain the exceptional depth of 5.4 feral offensive rotation, whereas savagery, soul of the forest, and vicious are meant to be for less ambitious ferals or mere novices. As well, these new talents are intended to give feral a range of versatility in how it deals its damage. The standouts in this regard are Lunar Inspiration and Supernatural, the latter providing feral the ability to drop two full power finishers in a row on two different targets.

    Most Importantly
    I appreciate feedback, and will consider all constructive criticism or creative ideas thoroughly. I am not beyond further elaborating on changes I've suggested, if you wish. Thank you for reading this far!
    Last edited by hullaballoonatic; 2014-04-02 at 01:37 AM.

  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral Barny's Avatar
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    "All positional requirements removed" - Yes please

    "Shapeshifting is now placed on its own gcd" - All of my yes

    "Feral: Pulverize - moves your strongest rip, rake, and thrash applications to your current target. 8 second cooldown." - Have my babies

    "Maim reworked - now reads: Deals y (+x%ap) damage to all enemies within 8 yards of the druid. Deals additional damage per combo point." - BURN THE WITCH!
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    I think MMO-C should be renamed "HJTC-C" - Hyperbolic Jumping To Conclusions Champion.

  3. #3
    Basically destroyed feral for PvP.

    What's with everyone wanting SR passive? Just say you want it removed. If it's passive, it may as well not exist.

  4. #4
    Yes, it's really time for positional requirements to go.

    And sure, I hate having to bring up fucking Savage Roar before I can start doing something meaningful. It's just pointless. And it only even more adds to another - of course fairly subjective - experience that I'm having with Feral lately:

    it's starting to feel so goddamn awful LAME compared to other melees. My God, nothing happens. I feel like I'm just standing there waiting for energy half of the time.

  5. #5
    Legendary! Rorcanna's Avatar
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    These changes could actually make me enjoy feral as much as I want to enjoy it. I WANT so badly to keep a feral druid and play it in PVE. I have 3 druids since I planned to have 1 feral/guardian, 1 Balance/Resto and 1 Feral/Resto but I find myself going from feral to balance simply because of how slow and clunky feral feels. I want to be a giant, powerful beast ripping enemies to shreds, but instead I apply dots and wait for abilities of highest priority to become useable...might be my low ilvl on my number 1 druid (515) but it never feels like combat with him becomes as fast and epic as I thought it would be.

    You should design the spec for the next expansion. Sadly, someone else will...

    That feeling when there's a new expansion out and you sit in a Garrison wondering what the hell to do because you are stuck on an entire continent like Timeless Isle, only with flightpaths to encourage afk travel coz "immersion".

  6. #6
    AWESOME raids and tiers!!!!!!!!!!!

    ..and quest storyline with Sylvanas.

  7. #7
    High Overlord Raysere's Avatar
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    You've obviously put a lot of thought into this. My gut feeling is that you're suggesting too much at once though.

    Let's see:

    All positional requirements removed
    Probably long overdue.

    Weapons can no longer be swapped in combat
    Not that I ever do it anyway. Assume you're trying to eliminate mucking about with HotW.

    Shapeshifting is now placed on its own gcd
    Probably a reasonable change. Not high on my list because I'm simply used to the GCDs after so long.

    Nurturing Instinct changed to Increases all spellpower by 150% of your agility
    Pretty irrelevant to me. Guess this is to make sure the Moonfire-CP talent from Blizzcon is a viable choice. Kinda assume the talent would make it scale somehow from AP as part of the deal anyway though.

    Rage in bearform no longer resets by leaving the form.
    Can't say I've ever been bothered by this.

    Hibernate works on all enemy types but not players or player controlled creatures.
    If CC in dungeons is going to be at all useful/practical/necessary in WoD, reasonable change.

    Increase Ravage damage by 100%. Increase Ravage energy cost to 80. Ravage no longer requires stealth. Energy cost in stealth reduced by 40
    Ravage already deals a huge amount of damage. Doubling it would put it at 1900% of weapon damage +126 @90. It would never be used out of stealth at 80 energy outside of Incarnation anyway. I think there has to be a better way to make Incarantion more interesting than having it turn Ravage into "Improved Mangle".

    Ferocious Bite damage increased by 20% per tick of rake, up to an increase of 100%.
    It would pretty much always be buffed by 100%. Might as well just adjust it's scaling.

    Lacerate removed. Rake now castable in bearform and acquires all tooltip attributes of former lacerate in that form. Does not stack with cat form rake.
    Good idea.

    Shred removed
    No idea why Blizzard has been so stubborn on this thus far. It's not compelling gameplay. I hate being the special snowflake melee who's always whining about mob positioning so I can shred.

    Soothe removed
    What's Soothe? Seriously it's so niche that it's practically pointless. The most challenging part of dispellable enrage mechanics is remembering which bind I have Soothe on.

    Nature's grasp removed
    Suggested this a couple of times in the past and been yelled at. It's widely used in PvP, I know that, but that's beside the point. It's not a compelling gameplay mechanic. We would not suffer without it.

    Innervate removed
    I'd keep it around for Resto. For Feral, unless it's going to return to it's former glory, I agree, dump it.

    Might of Ursoc removed
    Saved my useless self a few times but we've already got enough defensives as Feral without it.

    Maim reworked - now reads: Deals y (+x%ap) damage to all enemies within 8 yards of the druid. Deals additional damage per combo point.
    I'd like a wider retune of Feral AoE. Swipe/Trash feels frustratingly sluggish. Wouldn't get to use this much at current rate of AoE CP generation.

    Pounce no longer has a bleed component
    Whatever.

    Dream of Cenarius made baseline for Feral and Balance druids
    Hnnng. Not sure how I feel about that. I like it being an option, but as long a sit's so superior to the rest of the tier it makes going HotW a tough choice. Is that good or bad?

    Nature's Swiftness made baseline for feral and balance druids. No longer affects cyclone.
    Not so useful without bleed snapshotting.

    Berserk now reduces energy cost by 40% (down from 50%) but increases damage of non-bleed abilities by 20%
    Maybe. I'd need to try it to know if I liked it I think. Would certainly make Berserk a little less spammy.

    Tranquility now heals every 1 second, and ticks for half as much.
    meh.

    I'll try and remember to comment on your talents later. Right now I need a cup of tea.

  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire Spalding's Avatar
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    wow man. got to say some of them changes actually sound rlly good. literally could change the gameplay for a druid. moonfire bleeds, rage bar and heal from a distance lol lol id be such an arse in pvp!! much win tho. read all of it. only thing unsure about is SR. why not make using SR also give a chance to proc tigers fury, like predators swiftness. haha that would be awesome.

  9. #9
    Dream of Cenarius made baseline for Feral and Balance druids
    Blizzard wants to rework this bullshit. I mean you heal yourself everytime even full health. Its useless spell good for recount-only.
    Ferocious Bite damage increased by 20% per tick of rake, up to an increase of 100%.
    Tracking more buffs? Nope thx.
    Pounce no longer has a bleed component
    Better move would be balance its bleed component. Do you need your core ability changed so much?
    Increase Ravage damage by 100%. Increase Ravage energy cost to 80. Ravage no longer requires stealth. Energy cost in stealth reduced by 40.
    Do you mean omen of clarity procs? Too radical change.
    Feral: Savage Roar is now passive.
    My own suggestion - go reroll rogue. He has savage roar very passive for one spec and not punishing downtime for two others.
    Nurturing Instinct changed to Increases all spellpower by 150% of your agility
    Do you want feral as retribution at pvp(as support)?
    Maim reworked - now reads: Deals y (+x%ap) damage to all enemies within 8 yards of the druid. Deals additional damage per combo point.
    This is pvp nerf for pve AOE sake. Goddamit.
    Last edited by mmokri; 2014-01-22 at 09:23 AM.

  10. #10
    there is WoD 100 talent to make SR passive
    position requirements? are u playing feral? it's already almost neglited to none.You can just mangle spam ..

    revange is steath opener, and ferals already have lots abilities to use, I don't want this in rotation..

    Soothe is usefull ability for dispelling enrages, you just bad-noob that u can't find a use for it so FUCK OFF OF IT,

    `Mighty Bash removed, this is only valiable CC feral have now...

    same for others your shitty decisions for bears and cats...
    those spec re uniqie and fun to play as they are, if you don't like feral/guardian go play something else instead considering useless, idiotic changes

  11. #11
    High Overlord Vinushka's Avatar
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    Reading some parts of this makes me personally sad. I went to play feral years ago because I was simply bored of playing hunter due their lack of support/utility. I'd love to do more stuff than other classes do (not because I want to be a snowflake, but because I get easily bored hitting 1-4 keys and just watching the bossbar going down), I like to slightly watch over the healers to throw out a Innervate (though this does not happen often) for example. Admittedly some "changes" sound good.

    All positional requirements removed
    I dont have a problem with that personally, but I dont mind it getting removed.

    Weapons can no longer be swapped in combat
    I'm playing my feral with HotW, therefore, NO. When I cant reach the mob/boss/player I'd like to swap weapons to heal more or do slightly more DMG.

    Ferocious Bite damage increased by 20% per tick of rake, up to an increase of 100%.
    I think FB already deals a lot DMG, but overall the idea with the ticks sounds nice.

    Shred removed
    Why do you want it removed? Because of the position requirement?

    Soothe removed
    Hell no. Its useful in PvP and PvE, even when we're forced to go out of our form.

    Nature's grasp removed
    Its useful in some PvP moments, but rarely in PvE. Better let it stay.

    Innervate removed
    I could deal with it, due the low mana gain for me or healers. Hand over to Restos and Owlkins.

    Berserk now reduces energy cost by 40% (down from 50%) but increases damage of non-bleed abilities by 20%
    Sounds a bit "cata-ish". I like Berserk how it is now.

    Tranquility now heals every 1 second, and ticks for half as much.
    Thats no change at all IMO. Tranq. does not even heal that much without HotW talent.

    Faerie Swarm removed
    Explain why? Its very useful in PvP D:

  12. #12
    I like a lot of your changes. It seems to me like you have a really good understanding of how the specs work.
    I really do like your idea with Ferocious Bite. I dislike "make DoC baseline" and "switching targets is a complete non issue - spell". Switching targets in particular still needs some kind of skill component, especially now that we're losing snapshotting. I'm not sure I like the talents that you made up though (or even the ones you didn't.. like savage roar baseline).

  13. #13
    While some of your ideas aren't bad I find myself generally agreeing with mmokri, Zstr and Beyuru's objections. I especially object to your Bear form changes as my understanding with what you want Bear Rake to do just makes it a weaker Lacerate and there's no reason to remove Might of Ursoc.

    Your Hibernate change may as well remove the ability from game cause while it'd be nice for PvE it completely destroys what little use it has in PvP (shutting down Hunter pets and bad Druids); either it works like Repentance or it doesn't get changed. Likewise Soothe is a very powerful but fairly limited spell; you'd be surprised how it makes early expansion dungeon bosses that have an Enrage mechanic easier to manage and it's a useful tool against Warriors in PvP.

    Ravage becomes Stealth Opener only or something to do when you have just applied Thrash and another OoC procs. I can understand the desire to remove positioning requirements (hello Ultraxion) but you're acting as though all other melee aren't trying to be behind the boss; heck, Subtlety has a worse positional requirement than Feral cause Feral at least can Mangle in bad spots. Would be nice if bosses stopped spinning so often.

    Only suggestion I would make is that Ferocious Bite, whether baseline or by Glyph, no longer consumes additional Energy period or only if below 50 Energy.
    Last edited by Trubo; 2014-01-22 at 03:22 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Karlzone View Post
    It seems to me like you have a really good understanding of how the specs work.
    sry but he is not, especially from PvP view point and bear tanking, all he want is simplified spec, another dull rogue in cat model, which cats aren't and that what most people love in it.
    what is my whishlist as this spec gameplay will be untoched ! with new 100lvl WoD talents-utilities and stats vaules balanced like DoC won't be 20k dps increase over HoTW, and NV won't be useless at all

  15. #15
    These changes are actually really interesting, which surprised me, since I normally don't expect much from wishlists like this. Lots of the objections are from people who haven't read the whole list; for example

    - Passive savage roar would be a talent competing against easy target switching (soul swap, essentially) and free combo points (faerie fire gives a combo point). The combo points would be the default choice, but with appropriate tuning the other choices could be situationally viable. (I'm still not entirely sold on this, but it's interesting and not something I would immediately dismiss.)

    - The point of the ravage change is to make it usable outside stealth/incarnation for an increased energy cost. Inside stealth/incarnation it would be like it is now (100% increased damage is probably too much). This preserves the gameplay of casting another spell on clearcasts (since shred would be removed) and adds another option for dumping energy when combo points aren't needed.

    - Might of Ursoc would be removed as a class ability but it's effectively moved to a talent, replacing Renewal.

    - As a general note on CC reduction, be aware that Blizzard is looking to reduce CC overall. So you wouldn't be the only class.

    - You'd be able to get mighty bash, faerie swarm, and/or nature's grasp back by glyphing them. These glyphs have costs, so you're still losing CC, but see the above point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Beruru View Post
    Tranquility now heals every 1 second, and ticks for half as much.
    Thats no change at all IMO. Tranq. does not even heal that much without HotW talent.
    No, it's actually a very helpful change. One of the big problems with Tranquility is that it doesn't triage well enough: ticking just 4 times on 12 targets each time, it can easily let individual players die even as others are healed to full health. Doubling the tick rate would help to alleviate this issue.

    Even better would be to make it tick on half as many targets instead of ticking for half as much -- but perhaps that would be going too far.

    Tranquility is an incredibly powerful heal, but because of the triage issue, you often end up having to still stack it with other raid cooldowns, and then a lot of its healing just overheals anyway. If the triage issue were fixed, it would be a lot more common to see the full potential of the ability.
    Last edited by Aseyhe; 2014-01-22 at 05:19 PM.

  16. #16
    I made an edit of the OP addressing some confusion that lead to some criticisms, but I'll also elaborate here.

    They are removing dot snapshotting from stat buffs, but Blizzard very likely won't remove the effect tiger's fury, dream of cenarius, or savage roar have on applying bleeds. Suggesting Dream of Cenarius as baseline is a personal wish of mine. I love the ability but it has terrible raid utility, and is mostly a dps boost, but I think it's a fun mechanic, and I'd like to keep its current functionality. Plus, important to note that by buffing Nurturing Instinct, it opens up the possibility of just using Wrath to spend PS procs and ignoring DoC altogether. (It probably also opens up more distinction for good players, who would use PS on wrath if there is no reason to use healing touch to buff bleeds)

    There was some confusion as to suggestions for general class changes and suggestions for new talents. I made this more distinct if you'd like to just browse the OP once more.

    I didn't suggest removing Mighty Bash entirely. I made it into a glyph - Glyph of Pounce, which makes pounce usable out of stealth with a 1 minute cooldown. This is also why I removed the pounce bleed mechanic, so it doesn't become a dps boost in pve rotation.
    I didn't remove Might of Ursoc, I just combined it with Renewal to make that talent stronger.

    Overall It's important to note that I actually do not have a very good understanding of Guardian, so any effect of these changes on that spec to make it worse for wear are not intended. Personally, doing anything that distances the two specs in the spellbook would be a wonderful change. So if Might of Ursoc became just a guardian ability, I'd be fine with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    While some of your ideas aren't bad I find myself generally agreeing with mmokri, Zstr and Beyuru's objections. I especially object to your Bear form changes as my understanding with what you want Bear Rake to do just makes it a weaker Lacerate and there's no reason to remove Might of Ursoc.

    Your Hibernate change may as well remove the ability from game cause while it'd be nice for PvE it completely destroys what little use it has in PvP (shutting down Hunter pets and bad Druids); either it works like Repentance or it doesn't get changed. Likewise Soothe is a very powerful but fairly limited spell; you'd be surprised how it makes early expansion dungeon bosses that have an Enrage mechanic easier to manage and it's a useful tool against Warriors in PvP.
    My intentions with lacerate is not to nerf it at all. It is simply to make it not stack with cat form rake. With my suggestions to take shapeshifting off the gcd and remove rage resetting, it would be very likely that ferals would start filling in spaces in the feral rotation by laying lacerates while their energy refilled in bear form.

    Hibernate is actually just flat broken. It's either not useful at all or completely overpowered. Blizzard recognizes that PS+Cyclone is too powerful, but it's chump change compared to NS+Hibernate on a feral or PS+Hibernate. I actually think I addressed some of the woes of pvp: I provided options to make bear tougher, a shorter cd method of direct burst, and i think the suggested tier 45 talents really assist there.

    Additional thoughts:

    My favorite suggestion is the talent that makes ferals have a rage bar instead of a combo point bar. The implications are awesome, without stirring things up too hard. Consider how similarly rage and cp behave mechanically. Essentially now you have the ability to use two finishers in a row, and your "cp" stack on you instead of the target.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aseyhe View Post
    - Passive savage roar would be a talent competing against easy target switching (soul swap, essentially) and free combo points (faerie fire gives a combo point). The combo points would be the default choice, but with appropriate tuning the other choices could be situationally viable. (I'm still not entirely sold on this, but it's interesting and not something I would immediately dismiss.)
    I'd love to discuss these merits. I was thinking the clear winner between cps and "soul swap" would just be apparent on a per fight basis, but the tier does also just offer the player the ability to amend some of the difficulties they have with the spec, be it target switching, managing savage roar, or appropriately generating cps. Since FF can't crit and therefore can't generate 2 cps for 1 gcd, and does no damage, I don't think it would be used on its cooldown, but in filler.

    The point of the ravage change is to make it usable outside stealth/incarnation for an increased energy cost. Inside stealth/incarnation it would be like it is now (100% increased damage is probably too much). This preserves the gameplay of casting another spell on clearcasts (since shred would be removed) and adds another option for dumping energy when combo points aren't needed.
    Yeah, I wasn't concerned with the balancing of the numbers, but I think the damage would need to be increased, or maybe not. Essentially what I'm doing there is combining shred and Ravage and renaming it Ravage.

    And you're spot the fuck on on your analysis of Tranquility.
    Last edited by hullaballoonatic; 2014-01-22 at 08:23 PM.

  17. #17
    High Overlord Raysere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    My favorite suggestion is the talent that makes ferals have a rage bar instead of a combo point bar. The implications are awesome, without stirring things up too hard. Consider how similarly rage and cp behave mechanically. Essentially now you have the ability to use two finishers in a row, and your "cp" stack on you instead of the target.
    My worry with that is that it'd end up being mandatory. Unlike many people (judging by some of the responses here) I actually like the energy resourse.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Cedrich View Post
    My worry with that is that it'd end up being mandatory. Unlike many people (judging by some of the responses here) I actually like the energy resourse.
    It doesn't replace energy. It replaces combo points. You would have energy+rage instead of energy+cp.

    In terms of mandatory, it depends on balancing the throughput. It's up against moonfire and wrath being added as substantial parts of the spec, and pets. Both of these also increase damage. The intent is that it comes down to how you want to play the spec. For example, you may feel the rage is needed to drop a rip on 2 targets, but you can also do that with the soul swap talent (or you can drop rip on 3 targets in quick succession with both!)
    Last edited by hullaballoonatic; 2014-01-22 at 11:29 PM.

  19. #19
    High Overlord Raysere's Avatar
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    Nature's Ally :- Permanent pets? It's an interesting concept but I'd rather not become a pet class in any way, shape or form. I find them irritating on so many levels.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    I'd love to discuss these merits. I was thinking the clear winner between cps and "soul swap" would just be apparent on a per fight basis, but the tier does also just offer the player the ability to amend some of the difficulties they have with the spec, be it target switching, managing savage roar, or appropriately generating cps. Since FF can't crit and therefore can't generate 2 cps for 1 gcd, and does no damage, I don't think it would be used on its cooldown, but in filler.
    My thought is that since faerie fire has no resource cost (other than the GCD), it's going to be optimal to play around its cooldown, making sure that you always have a free GCD when it comes up. There would be rare cases where you might hold off, but typically the talent would just be granting 1 CP every 6 seconds, at the cost of a slight alteration of when you use your other abilities.

    It's going to be hard for a soul swap to compete with that. There are two main utilities for soul swap.
    • Switching to a important, short-lived target. The target has to actually be very important for it to be worth taking the bleeds off your original target. It also has to be short-lived: otherwise you can just use your pooled energy to put a new set of bleeds on it easily enough. In practice I very rarely use it for actual target switching.
    • Maintaining bleeds on multiple targets. This is the main use and is due to the way rip gets extended by mangle and shred. If you put up rip on one target and then switch to another target to get a rip on that one as well, you miss out on extending the first rip. Soul swap circumvents this by letting you extend the rip on your first target before swapping it to the second target and then reapplying it to the first.
    So the question is this: is it worth giving up 1 CP every 6 seconds to be able to extend rip on every target? For some fights it probably is, but not very many.

    Also, I think your particular formulation of this soul swap (Pulverize) is a little awkward, first because it moves the strongest bleed (instead of most recent), and second because it moves thrash. The strongest bleed choice reduces its utility for getting bleeds on more than two targets (something that would otherwise be a pretty nice advantage for this talent over the current symbiosis spell). It could also get ambiguous: what if you have two bleeds of the same strength? Or confusing: how do you even tell the bleed strength? Moving thrash would be problematic because you'd normally have thrash on both targets already, so it would just take thrash off one of them. Of course, it's not my intention to dwell too much on specifics, as these can always be changed.

    Going back to the faerie fire talent, another thing to note is that it's a significant increase to overall combo point generation. Combo point generation these days averages something like .6 per second. Another combo point every 6 seconds corresponds to a 25-30% increase in combo points; at lower gear levels it would be even larger. I worry that this kind of change is going to speed up the feral playstyle more than you are expecting as finishers become that much more frequent. Or perhaps you are expecting that and want to provide an option for those people who want a faster playstyle, but in that case it should be an option, rather than the obvious choice for many fights.

    More generally, if this talent tier is supposed to offer the player options for managing their playstyle, then I'm not sure a multi-target talent belongs here at all. It removes that choice: it will be the obvious right option for some fights and the obvious wrong option for others.

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