i'm just not so sure considering the nature of energy. clearly you wouldn't ever use it with surplus energy. i amended to include (cannot occur more than once every 20 seconds) however.My thought is that since faerie fire has no resource cost (other than the GCD), it's going to be optimal to play around its cooldown, making sure that you always have a free GCD when it comes up.
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Lacerate isn't the first ability I'd worry about, though. Thrash is the big one, since it can coexist with cat thrash. Even if that were fixed, mangle does more damage than lacerate (even if the lacerate is maintaining a 3-stack it's still comparable). And you have to worry about people shifting out to cast moonfire for free (if Nurturing Instinct were changed to grant all spellpower) -- indeed this would happen even without the shapeshifting GCD change.
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(Edit: I guess with dream of cenarius, passive savage roar loses some value. It's hard to quantify how much.)
Last edited by Aseyhe; 2014-01-22 at 10:01 PM.
You make good points. I've moved some things around. I left the buff for nurturing instinct in regards to nature, and then amended the moonfire talent to allow NI to apply to all spell schools, as well as allow PS to trigger an instant wrath.
As well, given the simple numbers provided, a 10 second cooldown on cp from faerie fire seems best.
I also gave up on the concept of shapeshifting on its own gcd (and the bear form rage reset thing) which is probably unnecessary. I added a glyph that allows cats to use cyclone, healing touch, roots, and rejuv in cat form, which assuages much of the need for shapeshifting on its own gcd.
Replaced the soul swap mechanic with increased rip and rake durations. Then moved that talent to tier 100 to replace the pets. Then put Dream of Cenarius in the vacant tier 45 spot. Now DoC competes with extra cps in the form of faerie fire or permanent savage roar.
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Can you give me your thoughts on the merits of an aoe finisher? I feel like it's a sorely missing piece to an otherwise pretty well constructed aoe rotation. If it additionally spread rake (which is colossally overpowered now, but assuming it were tuned in WoD otherwise), then doing aoe would no longer involve such an incredible amount of wasted CPs. If you reduced the damage of thrash to the level that this is balanced, you would simultaneously remove it as an effective energy dump, but that might automatically occur regardless with an improved Ferocious Bite and the suggestion with a change to Ravage.
I suggest replacing maim with this aoe finisher, because 5 finishers seems excessive, and I feel Maim is the weakest link (obviously in pve) but also perhaps in pvp as well, and blizzard wants to be scaling back on CC anyways.
Last edited by hullaballoonatic; 2014-01-22 at 11:40 PM.
A lot of these sound good but some of them are very one-sided and biased towards PVE..
(I'd leave the faerie fire talent at 6 seconds to make sure it beats passive savage roar with optimal use, but that's just a number.)
Regarding AoE finishers, I never really saw the need for an AoE finisher in feral's current design -- swipe generates few combo points per energy and tab raking generates none. However, if Blizzard is planning to make rake spreading part of the AoE rotation, then I will say that having a finisher spread rake feels more appropriate than having thrash spread it. You could probably just as well have ferocious bite spread rake instead of making a specialized finisher (ignoring any believability issues with a bite having an AoE effect).
One thing to work out would be how the number of combo points affects rake spreading. If it doesn't, then it'd probably be optimal to use a 1-2-CP finisher right after rake, at least in the opening.
Also, swipe should probably start generating two combo points if it crits your target (like other CP builders), just to reduce the likelihood that ferals end up using single-target builders to get the finisher out quicker.
Last edited by Aseyhe; 2014-01-23 at 12:46 AM.
Originally the thought was to have a finisher that could be used to make use of the useless cps spent on raking targets, but actually, instead I think making thrash spread rake and just having a damaging finisher would be the right choice. This would also remove the necessity of primal fury affecting swipe, though I don't see the reason why it doesn't.One thing to work out would be how the number of combo points affects rake spreading. If it doesn't, then it'd probably be optimal to use a 1-2-CP finisher right after rake, at least in the opening.
Please consider that all classes will be receiving "nerfs" in pvp in the cc department. I am removing abilities from the mandatory-bound position, and providing them as potent major glyphs for pvpers.-- One of the one-sided suggestions I was referring to.. This ability may not be big in PVE but it's huge in PVP and making it a glyph would just make it another mandatory thing that just takes up another glyph slot.
If you didn't notice, I removed all dps components of that tier. Nature's vigil is not useless. It actually does provide the most healing of any of those spells over the entire course of a raid fight. I don't think pvp ferals would want it, but would probably instead pick up HotW, which I think has great opportunity in pvp as a survival cd, or spot healing, or what have you.---Then HoTW would be useless DPS-wise..
Yeah, probably overpowered. Even if druids mostly use hots, giving them this amount of throughput is probably unnecessary. I like your point about living seed. I changed the talent to change living seed to apply an absorb shield on the target equal to its amount immediately instead of its current effect. As well, gave that talent an additional active.-- Yeah, no. Lol While this sounds nice this would literally make resto druids broken. I'd suggest that they do something to living seed so that it's not just 2% of my healing on any given fight.
Because my suggested Ravage change essentially merges the two abilities. Shred has no use anymore at that point. Mangle is leftover. Your suggestion is just mangle still. They can rename mangle to shred for all I care. The point is they do the same thing and don't both need to exist anymore.Why? Because it has a positional requirement? They should just remove the positional requirement and make Mangle a Bear-only ability. That would eliminate all of the Mangle vs. Shred nonsense and it would make both Guardian and Feral feel that much more distinct.
A lot of OP changes would buff feral way too much for pvp though. Like rage not disappearing. You would just swap between bear and cat constantly.
Overall i like feral, though just aoe feels boring and lackluster. I don't mind having to find "behind" of a boss. It's pretty much the reason i like to play melee. Having to run around and get it all working. Can be frustrating if it doesn't at all, but it mostly does, and then it feels rewarding. At least to me.
I want savage roar to stay. It's overall a stupidly simple mechanism, and if you fail it you don't deserve to play feral. I like the idea of savage roar being able to be passive, but the other talents in that tier have to be really nice, to make up for it. That can be in terms of dps/ imunity/clear of dots/fear-breaker. Just want there to be a reward for still using it. Prefer a dps boost.
Everyone has so much to say
They talk talk talk their lives away
Some very inspired (and not totally stupid ideas) in here for sure, I think Stenhaldi hit the nail on the head when he said you have a good idea of the spec, although your suggested changes would pretty much wreck feral PvP (as in, we wouldn't be the ones getting wrecked. Incarnation + Berserk for 26 energy ravages that hit more than 2 times harder than they do now? Balanced!).
Furthermore, the Ferocious Bite change is partially, if not entirely, trivialized by the Ravage change because if you had the spare time on your bleeds you would likely consider swapping over to 80 energy Ravages as it could have a higher or significantly higher DPE than Ferocious Bite.
While it's really not the end of the world it would have a very significant effect on the spec throughout the expansion. It would probably make our stat priority
Readiness to 20% > everything else
to take advantage of the drastic damage boost. Also causes some balancing implications with having a sudden threshold of gear that would offer us such a large increase in single target damage.
Pounce change almost seems like a glyph tax, not sure if that's good implications for PvP but it may be fine for PvE if they don't let us continue to have our 2 major glyph slots more or less eternally gridlocked.
Faerie Swarm glyph makes sense.
Deft Feline seems awkward/pretty silly, I'm not sure I can really offer any legitimate feedback other than saying it just sounds like a bad idea.
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Last edited by aggixx; 2014-01-23 at 09:53 AM.
I really appreciate this criticism. I'm wondering what your overall thoughts on clearcasting is in an environment missing shred altogether barring any other changes. At the point where you're spamming mangle (sometimes applying a thrash) regardless, it just doesn't have the exciting gameplay implications anymore. Especially with its tendency to proc multiple times in quick succession and then go dead for awhile, the gameplay just isn't nearly as rewarding. Perhaps setting it to the RPPM system would somewhat alleviate this issue (unless it already is, though I feel like the tendancy for RoRO to proc multiple times in a row is far, far lower than omen of clarity).
You've convinced me of quite a bit of the folly with the Ravage idea. I'm removing all changes except it's lack of stealth requirement. I'm toying with the idea of Ferals not having any abilities that require stealth by default, and prowl by default increases the damage of your next ability used by a certain amount.
I changed my Incarnation suggestion. I want something that is appropriate in pvp as well as pve. The new idea is that bleeds applied during incarnation tick twice as fast but at reduced damage per tick. I think this works as burst. Maybe I could amend it to cause all current bleeds to start ticking twice as fast as well, but I'm having a hard time comprehending all the implications in both pvp and pve.
Perhaps it's about time thrash generates 1 cp?
I changed the bleed duration talent to increase the duration of just rip and the rate at which it deals damage by the same amount. The intent is to fit 2 extra ticks in the same timeframe, though I can't think of a way this won't act strangely with rip extension via mangle.
Imagine ferals getting a max of 10 combo points instead of 5, and they stack on you instead of your target. How is this different from a standard rage bar? Energy sticks around, using it allows you to generate rage through formerly cp generating abilities. Things like Primal fury still apply, so a mangle, which normally applies 10 rage, instead applies 20 on a crit. Finishers scale per 10 rage in their cost, up to a maximum of 50. Other than the obvious ability to cast two finishers in a row, also added is 3 rage generated per second in combat, to count as the standard throughput of the talent.Really not sold on this one, sounds awkward and extraordinarily difficult to balance, not to mention it would be a colossal change to our playstyle/stat priority/everything else.
Clearly this adds nigh immeasurable flexibility to the spec, that may be too appealing. But I don't think it's as difficult to balance from a standard damage viewpoint at all. In PvE, likely the most far reaching of these implications is to apply a powerful rip on two targets, whereas in pvp it may be the ability to ferocious bite twice in a row. Given that pvp burst is a real danger, I think FB's standard functionality that will eat your energy, making the followerup one less strong, coupled with it being scaled around rake ticks will assure it's more like 1.5 times biggest FB.
Your other suggestions are great, and I'm going to include them wholesale.
A final thought, you accuse me of not considering the overall implications of all the talent choices, but I have mused over this pretty substantially, although perhaps not enough. My suggested talents offer 3 throughput tiers (coincidentally so does blizzard's) and this can get tough to balance.
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When it comes to pvp, what feral is leftover with after my suggested changes for CC/stuns/interrupts:
tier 75 talents
versus currently we have all that plus Mighty Bash, Tier 45 talents, Maim, and Hibernate.
Last edited by hullaballoonatic; 2014-01-23 at 10:43 AM.
Also, I believe it is flat chance on each auto-attack (4%?), not PPM, RPPM or ICD based. Could be mistaken.
Consider making it affect already applied DoTs only while the target is in execute range, then it would have a great synergy with (formerly) Blood in the Water, and you could have it end the accelerated ticking if the target came back out of execute range (for PvP reasons), unless new DoTs had been applied during the effect.
As much as I like the idea though, I'm not sure the mechanic really fits the kit of the ability at all. It would make a lot more sense as a sort of a "mark" ability, kind of like the Rogue "Marked for Death" called something like Predator's Onslaught/Fury/Wrath. Or a different angle: "Relentless Assault" or a more humorous "Bleeding Frenzy".
(can you tell I'm having fun with this? :3)
Last edited by aggixx; 2014-01-23 at 11:13 AM.
So basically just lower the PvE skill cap from above average to Rogue level?
EU first PG wave 30, come at me bros.
Last edited by aggixx; 2014-01-23 at 11:17 AM.
Well, I think it's a bit more elegant than anticipation, which seems wonky to me. The first 5 cps stack on the target, the next 5 on you for anticipation. You may recall that prior to Ghostcrawler leaving he did tweet saying something along the lines of "Maybe it's about time combo points generate on the player." My only issue with that concept is it seems not too far removed from holy power, chi, or rage at that point. I think my rage concept opens more flexibility to pvpers than it does to pvers (who rarely run into an issue of excess combo points.) Though, it would give a lot of perhaps unnecessary breathing room to the pve rotation.Ah so it's basically a feral version of Anticipation but with complete different distinct drawbacks.
So how would you change it to make it more interesting? If ravage did more damage, potentially it could be restricted in its used to only ravage, but that could just bloat the tooltip.I completely agree. It's only really an exciting mechanic when you get it at just the right time to apply a bleed during a proc window (gone in 6.0) or when it chain procs during AoE, but neither of those are common enough or particularly compelling in the broad scope of things.
I feel like I'm restricted in my brainstorming to something that involves the incarnation cat form. Perhaps something like while it's active finishers generate 3 combo points?As much as I like the idea though, I'm not sure the mechanic really fits the kit of the ability at all. It would make a lot more sense as a sort of a "mark" ability, kind of like the Rogue "Marked for Death" called something like "Predator's Onslaught" or "Relentless Assault" or a more humorous "Bleeding Frenzy".
Last edited by hullaballoonatic; 2014-01-23 at 11:28 AM.
I guess the tricky part is that any bonus that grants increased resources (either CP or energy) risks vastly increasing the pace of the spec during the cooldown, as well causing some balance/burst issues, so it's probably best to stray away from that. I almost feel like the best way to go with it would be to give it a new, different (pseudo)passive mechanic that isn't significantly consequential to how you play during the cooldown. Something like one of these:
- Your direct damage attacks increase the damage of your next Rip or Rake tick by 50%.
- Your direct damage attacks cause your Rip to tick instantly for half damage.
- Your direct damage attacks cause your bleeds to elapse 1 second of time instantly.
The nice thing about having a benefit that triggers off direct damage attacks is it (imo) elegantly allows you to grant a benefit that is good in PvE without having to worry too much about the PvP burst implications, as you can be hard CC'ed or peeled to shut down the damage somewhat.
Last edited by aggixx; 2014-01-23 at 11:47 AM.
Neat suggestions. Feral feels like it needs a medium length offensive cd for pvp, so they don't seem so left in the mud while they wait for berserk to come back off cooldown, and I wonder if that fits the bill.
Also, feral pve is still really missing the ability to switch to an add that will only live ~10 seconds and deal meaningful damage to it. I was kind of hoping Incarnation could fill this role, but unfortunately anything that involves sticking rip on a target is not going to suffice. How would you solve that issue?
While i dont have a huge list of ideas, things id like to see are (in no particular order)
Bleed damage to come down as a overall % of my damage. Its like 50-60% of my total damage now while shred/mangle is something like 12% combined which feels a bit crazy.
Rip to get the 3 extra ticks baked in as standard so i dont get that annoying bug of it randomly dropping off early.
I actually dont mind savage roar but its so easy to maintain at moment that im not sure if its worth keeping in this current iteration
Something to replace dot snapshoting otherwise im going to get bored playing the spec.
I dont mind sucking at frequent switching - its a weakness and specs should have them.
Symbiosis to get reworked or removed. (3/4 of the abilties are junk)
This is purely a PvE viewpoint. I dont PvP
Last edited by Makrar; 2014-01-23 at 12:24 PM.
I agree with this.They should just remove the positional requirement and make Mangle a Bear-only ability. That would eliminate all of the Mangle vs. Shred nonsense and it would make both Guardian and Feral feel that much more distinct.That too.Regarding AoE finishers, I never really saw the need for an AoE finisher in feral's current design -- swipe generates few combo points per energy and tab raking generates none. However, if Blizzard is planning to make rake spreading part of the AoE rotation, then I will say that having a finisher spread rake feels more appropriate than having thrash spread it. You could probably just as well have ferocious bite spread rake instead of making a specialized finisher (ignoring any believability issues with a bite having an AoE effect).
I'm not sure this is supposed to be in a feral wishlist, but I'll say it anyways. I hope they turn down (IMMENSELY) or just remove mindless smart healing like Nature's Vigil, Ancestral Guidance and all other smart healing really (even smite). It is not interesting in the slightest and turns healing into a mindless spam game. If all this would be turned down or removed, our Healing Touches would be a lot more warranted, and we wouldn't need talents/abilities like HotW or "that-aoe-healing-touch-idea" to compete in utility. Then again... if they would do this, I would switch to resto as soon as my guild could need a healer.
That said, it's far from the strongest spec at dealing with such targets and if we want to make it stronger, it might be interesting to look at a time when it was one of the strongest such specs: Dragon Soul. Back then feral charge triggered a free ravage, and due to a set bonus, tiger's fury also triggered a free ravage. On Madness of Deathwing, for example, I'd hold tiger's fury and feral charge for the corrupting parasites and then outdamage pretty much everyone on them using the two free ravages.
So there are a few directions we might go here. One is to make it less costly to hold tiger's fury: what if tiger's fury had two charges? Could be a baseline thing or a talent. With this, you could always keep one charge pooled at no cost for use on some important add. Of course, then you have to worry about people pooling both charges and potentially doing more burst damage than intended (especially in PvP). Maybe this idea would work better with a spell that has meaningful duration so that chaining it back-to-back isn't as big of a deal, like Incarnation. That might make it too similar to force of nature, but I would really like to rework force of nature because it's not an interesting spell, being totally separable from the rest of the rotation.
Another thought might be to make Tiger's Fury a stronger target-switching tool than it is now (like how it used to give a free ravage). Blizzard actually attempted that this tier by making Tiger's Fury put 5 combo points on your target, but that was awkward to use and their final version of the set bonus (granting combo points after the next finisher) ended up being mostly worthless for target switching. But a more general problem with making Tiger's Fury stronger is that it then becomes even more costly to hold it for a target switch.
In that vein, I do miss having feral charge trigger a free ravage. It was nice because due to the minimum range of the ability, it was pretty much break-even to use it on a target you were already attacking -- so that meant you could always just hold it for a target switch at minimal cost. Unfortunately with feral charge being a talent, that's not something that can really be done anymore. But perhaps there is another way to accomplish something similar. Perhaps ravage could be stronger -- do more damage, or grant more combo points, or refund some of its energy cost -- when used against a target that doesn't have your rip or rake on it. (I'm tempted to say just rip because I don't want people to be afraid of spreading rake at the wrong time, but with just rip it'll be harder to keep it from being used frequently in a single-target rotation.)
are you all ppl playing ferals what postion requirements you talking about?
there common `be behind` of boss to not parry for all classes,
Mangle is alternative to Shred to use as CP if boss is facing you, even sometimes it's valiable to use instead of Shred while behind boss.
Revange is Steath opener aka cat's Ambush, pvp set bonus already give you ability to use it infront and out of steath, also in Incarnation it not have place in PvE target rotation due already lots abilites to use.
for OP, you are heavy PvE orientiered player, you don't have expirience from PvP side, If you think something is not have use while fighting bosses it doesn't mean it can be delete and redesigned in your wish