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  1. #41
    All positional requirements removed
    Would be nice but remove either Shred Or Mangle if that is the case. Ravage would need tweaked.
    Weapons can no longer be swapped in combat.
    The fire kitty in me says HECK No. The HOTW Progression user in me says HECK No.
    Hibernate works on all enemy types but not players or player controlled creatures.
    Could be an interesting change but meh.
    Omen of clarity reduces energy cost of next ability by 50 instead of making it free.
    Not needed.
    Ravage no longer requires stealth. Increased energy cost to 60. Costs 15 less in stealth.
    Change not needed.
    Pounce no longer requires stealth, but has a 1 minute cooldown. Bleed component removed.
    Leave pounce as is.
    Prowl now increases the damage of your next ability by 30%.
    No. Stealth on the pull for most bosses is more of a pain than an aid.
    Shred removed.
    You generally don't use it outside of Berserk for PVE anyway-just remove positional requirement and give Mangle to bear.
    Innervate removed.
    Why?
    Might of Ursoc removed.
    No this is a major emergency survival CD.
    Maim reworked - now reads: Deals y (+x%ap) damage to all enemies within 8 yards of the druid. Deals additional damage per combo point.
    Haha-No, leave it a a PVP move.
    Thrash damage reduced. Thrash now awards 1 combo point. Spreads rake to all targets affected.
    Thrash is fine as is, that is broken.
    Berserk now reduces energy cost by 40% (down from 50%) but increases damage of direct damage by 20%.
    Berserk is Fine.
    Mighty Bash removed
    No. It's actually quiet useful.
    Heart of the wild no longer increases stam, agility, and intellect by 6% at all times.
    No. I'd like some flexibility in my talents and not just DoC spam.
    Last edited by FeralSynapse; 2014-01-23 at 03:59 PM.

  2. #42
    That's a really cool list! I'll avoid quoting what you wrote to avoid quotebombing the thread so if someone's reading this on Page 3, you'll have to back-track to P1 to get the gist of it.

    Anyway, here goes.

    Maim and AoE issues
    I really like the idea of having an AoE finisher to augment our rotational cycle based on the number of targets. I don't think it's solving one of the main issues with target-swapping though:
    Losing CPs when you generate CPs on a new target. I was brainstorming of something like Touch of Karma or Kil'jaeden's Cunning in the sense that you toggle an ability on a MARK (with perhaps a toggle cooldown) and then whenever you generate CPs on another target, you would keep the CPs on your original MARK (but you would still lose them when switching to a non-MARKed target). This would come in handy to alleviate some of the pain associated with swapping off of your main target (boss, etc.) to help out killing/bursting something else really fast and then continue your cycle on the boss without incurring a dreadful 5-15second cycle reset (especially if the off-target appears at such a time that you do not or cannot have Berserk/TF available).
    Of course this is all under the assumption that it will still be preferred to keep near-100% uptime on Roar and Rip in WoD.

    AoE issues contd.
    I don't know about you but I have a grudge with our two main aoe spells (high-volume aoe, nevermind rake spam):

    1. Combo Point generation on Swipe is RIDICULOUSLY unintuitive (not to mention it doesn't benefit from Primal Fury).
    2. As long as Thrash remains a single-target component of our rotation I find it dreadful having to overwrite a strong Thrash snapshot on the boss with a weaker one just because I'm trying to hit a couple lepper gnomes on the side (while snapshotting is out for gear, we can still snapshot damage modifiers).

    OoC and Ravage/fillers
    I think Aggixx already raised really good issues with this especially in regards to pvp but by far the main issue I see with this is the introduction of yet another flat-damage CP generator. I'd be more leaned towards a blackout kick-esque (windwalker monk) damage debuff but I don't think either extreme is too enjoyable (or scalable). Maybe there's a sweet spot the developers will find.

    Bearcatting v2
    I really like your idea with Lacerate (feral). I've long been a fan of mixing in bear form into our dps rotation ever since Windlord in Heart of Fear and I think our two feral forms suffer from a lot of Vanilla baggage by not sharing certain spells cross-form (or even cross-spec). Mangle barely got fixed (no pun intended) last expansion but it's still two (three, actually) different spell IDs and icons. I'd love to see some overlap of Bear-oriented rake usage (in bear form of course) and some lacerate stacking in cat form perhaps replacing faerie fire or substituting an identical bleed as thrash but not overwritable by AoE.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zstr View Post
    are you all ppl playing ferals what postion requirements you talking about?
    there common `be behind` of boss to not parry for all classes,
    Mangle is alternative to Shred to use as CP if boss is facing you, even sometimes it's valiable to use instead of Shred while behind boss.
    Revange is Steath opener aka cat's Ambush, pvp set bonus already give you ability to use it infront and out of steath, also in Incarnation it not have place in PvE target rotation due already lots abilites to use.

    for OP, you are heavy PvE orientiered player, you don't have expirience from PvP side, If you think something is not have use while fighting bosses it doesn't mean it can be delete and redesigned in your wish
    Try Shredding against a boss that turns around to cast frequently.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Aseyhe View Post
    One is to make it less costly to hold tiger's fury: what if tiger's fury had two charges?
    This is my favorite of your suggestions, because it is the most elegant. It doesn't bloat tooltips to accomplish what it needs to. I imagine this being baseline, but am having trouble imagining the implications.

    What if ravage refunded some of its energy on a target above 90% health? In pvp, this doesn't seem that dangerous, though in PvE it would become our filler in the >90% range. Is that a problem, though? Also, I feel like this is a wonky method of helping target switching to the type of mobs we're talking about, since if your raid gets it down to 89% before you get there, then the brunt of why you're strong at that aspect of damage dealing is foiled. On the contrary, however, ferals are immensely mobile.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Cedrich View Post
    Try Shredding against a boss that turns around to cast frequently.
    whats the problem, have Mangle for this situation

  6. #46
    Feral Synapse, most of your concerns with my suggestions are alleviated by reading all the suggestions. I'll address a couple of your points though:

    The fire kitty in me says HECK No. The HOTW Progression user in me says HECK No.
    The fire cat things is a damn shame. The HotW thing is intended be alleviated by buffed Nurturing Instinct.


    No. I'd like some flexibility in my talents and not just DoC spam.
    DoC is in a different tier in my suggestions. The level 90 talent tier would only be composed of talents that heal, except for HotW, which is more flexible.

    No. Stealth on the pull for most bosses is more of a pain than an aid.
    The suggestions would not significantly change the importance of stealth on the pull. At best you would likely use it on a rake. I don't consider it much of a pain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpheus View Post
    As long as Thrash remains a single-target component of our rotation I find it dreadful having to overwrite a strong Thrash snapshot on the boss with a weaker one just because I'm trying to hit a couple lepper gnomes on the side
    In my current system suggestions, Thrash is a less meaningful aspect of single target, since it is doing less damage, but I'm not sure if I like the idea, since I'm very partial to us dealing an assortment of bleed attacks.

    Bearcatting v2
    As much as I've always been partial to the idea of bearcatting, I don't think blizzard is, since with rage resetting and the shapeshift gcd are clearly intended to deter this playstyle. I've wanted those aspects gone since as long as I can remember, but back then we still had to go bear form to bash and do bear charge (before cats had charge), but by now this isn't much of a big deal. The only place I can think of it being annoying is Cycloning and then going back into cat.

    If you have thoughts on how to elegantly allow for bearcatting, I'm all ears.
    Last edited by hullaballoonatic; 2014-01-23 at 06:21 PM.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Aseyhe View Post
    So there are a few directions we might go here. One is to make it less costly to hold tiger's fury: what if tiger's fury had two charges?
    that would bring cd increase to it for sure

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    This is my favorite of your suggestions, because it is the most elegant. It doesn't bloat tooltips to accomplish what it needs to. I imagine this being baseline, but am having trouble imagining the implications.

    What if ravage refunded some of its energy on a target above 90% health? In pvp, this doesn't seem that dangerous, though in PvE it would become our filler in the >90% range. Is that a problem, though? Also, I feel like this is a wonky method of helping target switching to the type of mobs we're talking about, since if your raid gets it down to 89% before you get there, then the brunt of why you're strong at that aspect of damage dealing is foiled. On the contrary, however, ferals are immensely mobile.

    Might as well go all the way and separate TF's energy component and damage component into two different spells (the T16 2set proc and nature's vigil are already doing duplicating some of this behavior)? You could have one ability to either give you immediate CP+energy or apply a CP-cost reduction and another ability which increases your direct damage/bleed damage; why not merge this with berserk then and give it two charges as well, or a resource-based CD like monk brews.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Zstr View Post
    whats the problem, have Mangle for this situation
    The problem is that if Shred no longer has a positional requirement, then Mangle and Shred now essentially accomplish the same thing, and they are a prime contender for the ability bloat axe

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    What if ravage refunded some of its energy on a target above 90% health? In pvp, this doesn't seem that dangerous, though in PvE it would become our filler in the >90% range. Is that a problem, though? Also, I feel like this is a wonky method of helping target switching to the type of mobs we're talking about, since if your raid gets it down to 89% before you get there, then the brunt of why you're strong at that aspect of damage dealing is foiled. On the contrary, however, ferals are immensely mobile.
    Interestingly, at 60 energy to cast outside of stealth, ravage would already become the default combo point builder above 80% due to its increased crit chance in that health range. (It still generates fewer combo points per energy than mangle, so my math assumes you had enough combo points to maintain rip and roar, and the combo points were just going toward ferocious bite -- but it still holds if ferocious bite does 100% more damage.)
    Last edited by Aseyhe; 2014-01-23 at 06:33 PM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpheus View Post
    Might as well go all the way and separate TF's energy component and damage component into two different spells. Why not merge this with berserk then and give it two charges as well, or a resource-based CD like monk brews.
    I'm just not so sure this would be necessary, and probably don't need to overcomplicate things. If the two moves are going to consistently be used together, why not leave them as the same ability? Perhaps I'm not understanding you well enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aseyhe View Post
    Interestingly, at 60 energy to cast outside of stealth, ravage would already become the default combo point builder above 80% due to its increased crit chance in that health range.
    Yes, very interesting. Would this be appropriately tweaked by bumping it to 80 energy with a refund of 20 to bring it to 60? Then for a simple CPpE standpoint spamming a mangle at 35 energy for a chance at 2 cps is better than spamming Ravage at 60 with a guaranteed 2.
    Last edited by hullaballoonatic; 2014-01-23 at 06:37 PM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    In my current system suggestions, Thrash is a less meaningful aspect of single target, since it is doing less damage, but I'm not sure if I like the idea, since I'm very partial to us dealing an assortment of bleed attacks.
    You're right, I guess I'm still thinking too much in MoP-terms. I'm surprised you haven't addressed feral mastery though - in a way it's the main reason (along with Rune) that certain bleeds got out of hand in the first place (most notably rip and thrash, rake still serves its purpose) and most of your suggestions seem to favor a cooldown-centric resource generation system with an equal bleed/direct damage spread (comparable to Unholy DKs?). Don't you think this might create an enormous bias towards readiness and crit while devaluing other stats (except agility)?

    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    As much as I've always been partial to the idea of bearcatting, I don't think blizzard is, since with rage resetting and the shapeshift gcd are clearly intended to deter this playstyle. I've wanted those aspects gone since as long as I can remember, but back then we still had to go bear form to bash and do bear charge (before cats had charge), but by now this isn't much of a big deal. The only place I can think of it being annoying is Cycloning and then going back into cat.

    If you have thoughts on how to elegantly allow for bearcatting, I'm all ears.
    Perhaps bearcatting wasn't the right term. Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way advocating that we should constantly keep shifting from one form or the other. It wouldn't be a terrible idea but fact is that the current UI and GCD system does not allow us to do it effectively without gamebreaking changes (more than can probably fit into WoD 6.0).

    I was thinking more along the lines of having iconic bear terminology and abilities be used for cat-specific purposes, either by allowing them cross-form access (like Mangle/Thrash/Swipe) or allow us to choose certain spells either through a short CD HotW-like ability or a resource-based approach like changing a spell after spending a rare resource (think of it as Soulburn or Resto Incarnation).

    With such a design mindset in place we could see things like a Glyph to use Dash in Bear form or a Taunt from Cat Form (maybe a grip/clash-like clone?) all the way to performance-increasing abilities like a Cat-maul proc to increase your next DD spell or a way to dip into the Bear Active Mitigation arsenal for a couple seconds to act as a defensive cooldown (opposed to having to rely on clutch raid setups with Symbiosis).

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    If you read the OP carefully you'd realize he intentionally devised several mechanics that encourage a significantly increased skill cap from what Feral would be post-snapshot removal. In fact I'm really not sure which of his suggestions reduce the PvE skill cap at all aside from the ones he included that were already provided by Blizzard (*cough* passive Savage Roar *cough*) and the increased Rip duration one.
    Well DoT snapshotting isn't exactly rocket science. You might need to plan slightly ahead if you got a short window of opportunity.

    The changes that'll make it more complicated will definitely increase the skill GAP between good and bad players, but an experienced Feral Druid would instead get less crap to worry about and the extra procs would just melt into the rotation quite naturally. I dunno if simple, easily maintained procs would feel any difference for an already rotationally skill capped Feral Druid. (But boy would I like some of his suggestions for my incredibly simple fire mage)

    Supernatural talent would also give a lot of room for bad planning of these procs.

    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    Blizzard has essentially ensured this by removing dot-snapping.
    I dunno, I feel like DoT snapshotting has been second nature for a long time now (not only when I play Feral, but my other DoT heavy classes too). Will be a weird transition in WoD when most DoTs will be more dynamic and I don't know if DoT snapshotting really contributes to a higher skill cap.

    A player that is very near skill cap is very unlikely to have trouble getting those last 5% due to not being a good snapshotter. That's intro level difficulty for a DoT class.


    Maybe I find that easy, but other parts hard which other people think belong in daycare.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpheus View Post
    I was thinking more along the lines of having iconic bear terminology and abilities be used for cat-specific purposes, either by allowing them cross-form access (like Mangle/Thrash/Swipe) or allow us to choose certain spells either through a short CD HotW-like ability or a resource-based approach like changing a spell after spending a rare resource (think of it as Soulburn or Resto Incarnation).
    This is a neat philosophy but contrary to others' desires to see bear and cat move in opposite directions in the spell-book more. Luckily, the glyph and talent systems perfectly accommodate both desires. My original thought for supernatural was to have maul usable in cat form as well as its current effect.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    I dunno, I feel like DoT snapshotting has been second nature for a long time now (not only when I play Feral, but my other DoT heavy classes too). Will be a weird transition in WoD when most DoTs will be more dynamic and I don't know if DoT snapshotting really contributes to a higher skill cap..
    To me, though, some of the infamous difficulty of the spec nowadays stems from the fact that Rip is the hardest dot to apply, whereas other dot classes only have to content with a gcd, and afflictions - THE dot spec - have it easiest with pandemic.

    The other time in our history where feral was considered exceptionally tough to play was WotLK, when the durations of our numerous debuffs, along with a shorter savage roar, made it nigh-impossible to balance and maintain all of them before gear levels provided enough haste and crit to give us the necessary combo points.

    How would you maintain the complexity of feral come WoD?

    Supernatural talent would also give a lot of room for bad planning of these procs.
    Can you elaborate on your concerns with this talent? I think it's my favorite suggestion, but also rather controversial, and my bias makes it difficult to analyze the consequences.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    The problem is that if Shred no longer has a positional requirement, then Mangle and Shred now essentially accomplish the same thing, and they are a prime contender for the ability bloat axe
    what the fun to play then, press 1 button 5 time get 5cp put finisher, grz u mastered feral cat rotation, thats retarded and dull, atleast there is choice to think to posistion urself to achieve better numbers, if you can't use another ability
    but what I'm talking people nature are lazy now, 1 hand to press bot macro 2nd eat hamburger,while sitting on their fat butt...
    oO I saw Revange do big crits, lets remove shred, bleeds, FB, TF, and put 1 button overpowered ability rotation attack
    Last edited by Zstr; 2014-01-23 at 06:53 PM.

  16. #56
    You cannot possibly be accusing the Feral rotation of simply being 5 gcds -> finisher -> repeat. Are you constantly running circles around the bosses? That's the only way I can think shred vs mangle being semi-compelling gameplay.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    To me, though, some of the infamous difficulty of the spec nowadays stems from the fact that Rip is the hardest dot to apply, whereas other dot classes only have to content with a gcd, and afflictions - THE dot spec - have it easiest with pandemic.

    The other time in our history where feral was considered exceptionally tough to play was WotLK, when the durations of our numerous debuffs, along with a shorter savage roar, made it nigh-impossible to balance and maintain all of them before gear levels provided enough haste and crit to give us the necessary combo points.

    How would you maintain the complexity of feral come WoD?
    .
    I'm not sure, I haven't been a super active feral player in WoD (180 days /played on my druid, but mostly resto in WoD) so I haven't thought of changes at all since most if it is still likely to change. (DoT snapshotting is gone though, sadly. That's confirmed)

    The complexity of a feral is its beauty in my opinion. It might be hard to learn, difficult to master, but it's quite a rewarding playstyle and I really enjoy high skill gaps. It really lets me show that I'm a good player that sticks out.

    But maintain or even increase complexity without overkilling it? No idea, I haven't thought of anything myself. I guess the procs you suggested is a good start and the talent changes. (I actually really liked the Faerie Fire one)


    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    Can you elaborate on your concerns with this talent? I think it's my favorite suggestion, but also rather controversial, and my bias makes it difficult to analyze the consequences.
    I think you misinterpreted. I meant that it would act as a safety net of bad Rip planning, which would lower skill cap. It would make the rotation more smooth though and less "oh fuck" miscalculations, so I'd definitely pick that talent unless another one was vastly superior. It's something I've wished for since I started playing a druid.


    Oh, about the WotLK rotation. For me, it was a clean "rotation". I would've probably been able to set up a bot to do it. It was VERY hectic and it shot you right in the gut if you messed up just a single time (since everything was thrown off-sync) but it was very straight-forward. I remember not being able to Fero bite more than a couple of times a fight first weeks of lvl 80 though.

    (Especially when we got a warrior in our team that helped with the bleed debuff, phew)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zstr View Post
    what the fun to play then, press 1 button 5 time get 5cp put finisher, grz u mastered feral cat rotation, thats retarded and dull, atleast there is choice to think to posistion urself to achieve better numbers, if you can't use another ability
    but what I'm talking people nature are lazy now, 1 hand to press bot macro 2nd eat hamburger,while sitting on their fat butt...
    oO I saw Revange do big crits, lets remove shred, bleeds, FB, TF, and put 1 button overpowered ability rotation attack
    And what class do you consider hard to play?

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpheus View Post
    2. As long as Thrash remains a single-target component of our rotation I find it dreadful having to overwrite a strong Thrash snapshot on the boss with a weaker one just because I'm trying to hit a couple lepper gnomes on the side (while snapshotting is out for gear, we can still snapshot damage modifiers).
    The only modifier we'll have is TF @ 15% (assuming SR always up), losing out on part of a bleed that's only 15% better isn't that bad. We will still have DoC @ 30% (or whatever it ends up being) but without Rune you would usually be going out of your way to avoid casting it without DoC regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zstr View Post
    that would bring cd increase to it for sure
    Not sure about that, you're only getting 1 extra TF per fight. The flexiblity doesn't even make it that much more powerful on a single target, since the lack of snapshotting greatly mitigates your ability to milk procs, and having the TF during procs more often would mostly just increase our rather unimpressive direct damage.

    Also, a very nice side effect to giving it 2 charges is that it dulls the weird gameplay of trying to stack Readiness up to a certain point for desired synergies. Then we'd only have to worry about Berserk lining up with trinket ICDs as far as Readiness thresholds go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpheus View Post
    Might as well go all the way and separate TF's energy component and damage component into two different spells (the T16 2set proc and nature's vigil are already doing duplicating some of this behavior)? You could have one ability to either give you immediate CP+energy or apply a CP-cost reduction and another ability which increases your direct damage/bleed damage; why not merge this with berserk then and give it two charges as well, or a resource-based CD like monk brews.
    Would just introduce more button bloat. Better ways to solve the problem, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    I'm just not so sure this would be necessary, and probably don't need to overcomplicate things. If the two moves are going to consistently be used together, why not leave them as the same ability? Perhaps I'm not understanding you well enough.


    Yes, very interesting. Would this be appropriately tweaked by bumping it to 80 energy with a refund of 20 to bring it to 60? Then for a simple CPpE standpoint spamming a mangle at 35 energy for a chance at 2 cps is better than spamming Ravage at 60 with a guaranteed 2.
    Numbers aren't particular important but that sounds fairly reasonable. Sounds like a cool mechanic, as much as I'm not a fan of the "Careful Aim" type reverse execute, we pretty much already have that feature anyway, it's just not prominent.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    Also, feral pve is still really missing the ability to switch to an add that will only live ~10 seconds and deal meaningful damage to it. I was kind of hoping Incarnation could fill this role, but unfortunately anything that involves sticking rip on a target is not going to suffice. How would you solve that issue?
    While it is a feasible solution, I'm sure you'd agree that using a talent as a solution to a weakness of the spec isn't an ideal solution. Something baseline like the energy refund on Ravage seems a lot more appropriate to me.
    Last edited by aggixx; 2014-01-23 at 07:35 PM.

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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    While it is a feasible solution, I'm sure you'd agree that using a talent as a solution to a weakness of the spec isn't an ideal solution. Something baseline like the energy refund on Ravage seems a lot more appropriate to me.
    While that is what I went with, I still think blizzard is not averse to solving these sorts of problems in talents. It is not every fight that feral contends with adds of that nature. In many fights we don't have to switch, and in others trash/swipe does the job. I digress. You make good points.

    I'm not a fan of the "Careful Aim" type reverse execute
    I suppose the other option would be something like "the first ravage used against the target will refund 20 energy," but such a condition hasn't been introduced into wow for likely a good reason.

    I meant that it would act as a safety net of bad Rip planning, which would lower skill cap. It would make the rotation more smooth though and less "oh fuck" miscalculations, so I'd definitely pick that talent unless another one was vastly superior. It's something I've wished for since I started playing a druid.
    This is a good point. Combined with the tiger's fury second charge, such a thing could really trivialize a lot of the decision making forced on the player in the feral rotation, though I do think it has potential to open up depth to the gameplay. You may instead be faced with new decisions like when to spend rage, or appropriately applying rip on multiple targets. Supernatural is, however, competing against a talent that assuredly adds complexity to the rotation. As long as the throughput for both talents were appropriately balanced, hopefully this would simply give the option to the player in how drastically they want to alter their play and in what ways.
    Last edited by hullaballoonatic; 2014-01-23 at 07:54 PM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    Not sure about that, you're only getting 1 extra TF per fight. The flexiblity doesn't even make it that much more powerful on a single target, since the lack of snapshotting greatly mitigates your ability to milk procs, and having the TF during procs more often would mostly just increase our rather unimpressive direct damage.
    Also, a very nice side effect to giving it 2 charges is that it dulls the weird gameplay of trying to stack Readiness up to a certain point for desired synergies. Then we'd only have to worry about Berserk lining up with trinket ICDs as far as Readiness thresholds go.
    it's 30 sec, cd with stacking readiness it would bring it maybe to the point of current AoC trinket about 20sec, and if it would have 2 charges, so u have to press it each 10 sec,
    it's going to be another SR to maintain
    and kittens gonna choke from it's energy gain

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