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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    I'm looking at active participation in the game. 54% of all gametime came from female players in that study. It doesn't matter how many people are playing, it matter's who's playing more.
    54% of PC gamers are female. It doesn't matter if it's 100% if they are all playing Farmville.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Then you should have no trouble sourcing it. Otherwise, it's just like any other 'it's common sense!' argument: typically bullshit that someone spewed and can't back up.
    Use Google. Everyone knows this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    You're the one backpedaling into ad hominems rather than addressing the point that you just flat-out said male opinions on new models are worth more than female opinions. Also, most crimes are perpetrated by men.
    Now you are putting male victims of crime and male criminals in the same category. That's sexist. We're not all the same. Crimes are committed by individuals against other individuals and the source of crime is generally due to economic reasons, not due to sex or gender.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    As for homelessness, congrats, you have stumbled on the notion of intersectionality. Class privilege and gender privilege are not mutually-inclusive, nor mutually-exclusive. A homeless white man will get shit for being homeless, not being a white man. A homeless black man will get shit for being homeless and black, not being a man.
    More men are homeless because we live in a terrible economy for men. It really is that simple. "Male privilege".

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    No, blood elf girls are skinny, unless the new model gives them muscle definition.
    Night Elf females seem huge compared to Blood Elf females. NE females are larger than BE females, so comparatively speaking they have large breasts. But if you want to use the proportion argument it still works for me and my male privilege. So by all means, keep NE females relatively large compared to everyone else, including their breasts. They are Amazonian after all. We wouldn't want to break with tradition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    The "bigger picture" is that more girls log in more playtime than boys do...
    They play more PC games. There are many different types of PC games. Just because most people who play Farmville are women doesn't mean that WoW should be made mostly for women.

    It's a complete non-sequitur.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    ...but you're insisting WoW should cater all models to the male gaze, which is the sort of thing I'm talking about when I bring up male privilege as a concept.
    No I am merely stating that WoW should reflect its target audience. If Blizzard want to make a game mostly for women then they are more than welcome to do so. The company will die but it's their game.

    Do you honestly, seriously believe that women participate in mainstream gaming as much as men? Here's a thought: make your own game, or better still, create a huge market for female games so that someone wants to invest in that market.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Gps View Post
    I dont get why people are going crazy over the new models. We put armor over our characters and zoom all the way out. Its not like you'll prob notice any difference.
    Look at what my Paladin, Warrior, DK and Mage are wearing. I'll notice.

    I think the new models are shaping up to look pretty amazing, and as others have said, all the models impact how armour looks; take a look at the front page and compare the smooth curves around the hips and thighs with the rather angular shape there now, it's a huge improvement that you'll see in armour and robes before you zoom in and look at the faces and the impact of the higher resolutions there.

  3. #263
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    54% of PC gamers are female. It doesn't matter if it's 100% if they are all playing Farmville.
    Because Joystiq would be talking about played time on Farmville in reference to females as a demographic in WoW. Context clues, man.

    Use Google. Everyone knows this.
    You'll forgive me for expecting you to be capable of doing your own research.

    Now you are putting male victims of crime and male criminals in the same category. That's sexist. We're not all the same. Crimes are committed by individuals against other individuals and the source of crime is generally due to economic reasons, not due to sex or gender.
    You're putting words in my mouth, sweetheart. Most crime is committed by men, on men. But you'll have to Google it because apparently we're not citing our sources here.

    More men are homeless because we live in a terrible economy for men. It really is that simple.
    The economy's shit for everyone. Most men who end up homeless do so because the system is stacked against anyone below the middle class.

    Night Elf females seem huge compared to Blood Elf females. NE females are larger than BE females, so comparatively speaking they have large breasts. But if you want to use the proportion argument it still works for me and my male privilege. So by all means, keep NE females relatively large compared to everyone else, including their breasts. They are Amazonian after all. We wouldn't want to break with tradition.
    Don't be petty. I'm speaking in relation to body proportions. Again, context clues.

    They play more PC games. There are many different types of PC games. Just because most people who play Farmville are women doesn't mean that WoW should be made mostly for women.

    It's a complete non-sequitur.
    Cite sources, and also, why would Joystiq talk about hours plugged into Farmville when discussing females as a demographic in wow, going so far as to say, I quote, "Girls don't just play WoW -- they're quickly becoming one of it's main demographics."

    No I am merely stating that WoW should reflect its target audience. If Blizzard want to make a game mostly for women then they are more than welcome to do so. The company will die but it's their game.
    I love how you claim that a company will die because it isn't targeted at lonely twentysomething males. Must be why Tomb Raider 2013 did so badly, right?

    Do you honestly, seriously believe that women participate in mainstream gaming as much as men? Here's a thought: make your own game, or better still, create a huge market for female games so that someone wants to invest in that market.
    Have you thought that the reason most girls don't admit to playing games is because of the vitriolic treatment they get by boys in gaming? Go look at any comment page on any given GameSpot article, especially those discussing feminism in games. Yet it surprises you that girls don't play Call of Activision more often?

    Also, you're about-facing your own argument. 54% of all PC gamers are female, so obviously there is a large market. And I don't need to be a carpenter to discuss furniture any more than I need to be a game developer to discuss feminism and females in gaming.

    Awesome sig by Elyaan is awesome.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Fufu View Post
    This type of thread makes me somewhat sad for the World of Warcraft community and the real world. People have become so unbelievably myopic and self-centered, believing that if something isn't 100% for them, it is worthless and to be discarded; no other person exists, much less their preferences or desires.
    This continues to strike me on these forums as well. It's OK if people don't care for certain things or whatever, but seeing how some folks here seem to have a perverse need to spit in another one's plate - it's beyond me. What is it good for, what does anyone gain from it? Coming up here, showcasing a terrifying level of obtuseness and telling others they're basically being morons because they're not as miserable and ignorant. It's just ridiculous and really pitiful.
    Last edited by Pull My Finger; 2014-01-24 at 05:02 PM.

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    This continues to strike me on these forums as well. It's OK if people don't care for certain things or whatever, but seeing how some folks here seem to have a perverse need to spit in another one's plate - it's beyond me.
    This is just a carry over for what the entire world behaves like. We just have several new outlets for our hatred and bias. It sounds silly, but it's not different at the most basic level as wanting to ban gay marriage. Person A doesn't like what Person B likes, so they must eradicate what Person B likes to Preserve their own interests.
    BAD WOLF

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Have you thought that the reason most girls don't admit to playing games is because of the vitriolic treatment they get by boys in gaming? Go look at any comment page on any given GameSpot article, especially those discussing feminism in games. Yet it surprises you that girls don't play Call of Activision more often?
    I think some of the hostility comes from a fear that if females become a majority in gaming (like the article states) that games will shift toward what they like and away from the state of games currently (or past) which tends to have games that males as a whole like. Its human nature to try to protect something you like from change.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Because Joystiq would be talking about played time on Farmville in reference to females as a demographic in WoW. Context clues, man.
    They, like you, are twisting the facts to support your argument.

    When the poll was taken 400 000 females played WoW out of a total of 1.8 million players in North America.

    Just because 54% of PC "gamers" are female doesn't automatically mean they are taking over a traditionally male hobby. It just means they generally like different games or different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    You'll forgive me for expecting you to be capable of doing your own research.
    This was researched a long time ago. It's not my fault if you are not up to date with the facts. Do you need me to prove to you that World War 2 happened as well or can you just accept common knowledge or just use Google?

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    You're putting words in my mouth, sweetheart. Most crime is committed by men, on men. But you'll have to Google it because apparently we're not citing our sources here.
    No I have seen the statistics and heard this argument many times before, but you missed the point. Crime is committed by individuals against other individuals. A male victim of crime didn't create the male criminal that committed the crime. The two men are separate.

    Not all men are the same. Only someone who is impervious to logic wouldn't see that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    The economy's shit for everyone. Most men who end up homeless do so because the system is stacked against anyone below the middle class.
    So you are finally admitting that it's an economic problem and not because all men are evil. We're finally making progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Don't be petty. I'm speaking in relation to body proportions. Again, context clues.
    Even in terms of body proportions, Night Elf females are still larger and more athletic compared to BE females. But in the actual game world they are significantly larger. I just wonder if Blizzard will reduce their breast size in order to pacify feminists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Cite sources, and also, why would Joystiq talk about hours plugged into Farmville when discussing females as a demographic in wow, going so far as to say, I quote, "Girls don't just play WoW -- they're quickly becoming one of it's main demographics."
    Some people like twisting the facts in order to fit their worldview. It happens in politics all the time.

    Like you for example: you are using the supposed fact that over 50% of PC gamers are female to justify changing WoW into a female game when in reality, 50% of WoW gamers are not female. Now are there things that Blizzard could do to make it more female-friendly? Of course there are, but Blizzard aren't going to attract that PC audience without changing WoW into something it's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    I love how you claim that a company will die because it isn't targeted at lonely twentysomething males. Must be why Tomb Raider 2013 did so badly, right?
    Apples and oranges. Legend was the best game IMO (it was the Wrath of the Lich King of Tomb Raider) but hardcore fans preferred Underworld. Both sold well but not well enough apparently. The new Tomb Raider basically turned the franchise into a movie whereas Legend was somewhere inbetween a game and a movie.

    This is a casual versus hardcore debate, not a male versus female one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Have you thought that the reason most girls don't admit to playing games is because of the vitriolic treatment they get by boys in gaming? Go look at any comment page on any given GameSpot article, especially those discussing feminism in games. Yet it surprises you that girls don't play Call of Activision more often?

    Also, you're about-facing your own argument. 54% of all PC gamers are female, so obviously there is a large market. And I don't need to be a carpenter to discuss furniture any more than I need to be a game developer to discuss feminism and females in gaming.
    No doubt there's a large market, but only for certain types of games. If someone made an MMO the size of WoW just for women it would fail spectacularly. If there was a market for such a game then it would have already been made. Games publishers are incredibly greedy and ruthless when it comes to supplying demand.

    All feminists want to do is police a male hobby. Considering what feminists have done to men in the real world and in the media, I can't blame men for wanting a male safe zone. You do realise that most games developers are men, right? They might have been engineers or mechanics but globalization exported most of those jobs to China, and now you want to take away the one last thing that men actually have to themselves?

    Good luck; you're going to need it.
    Last edited by Garian; 2014-01-24 at 06:20 PM.

  8. #268
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    All feminists want to do is police a male hobby. Considering what feminists have done to men in the real world and in the media, I can't blame men for wanting a male safe zone. You do realise that most games developers are men, right? They might have been engineers or mechanics but globalization exported most of those jobs to China, and now you want to take away the one last thing that men actually have to themselves?
    As a member of the male community, you should sit down and keep your mouth shut. You are a horrible representation of our sex and I would prefer you speak for yourself and not on behalf of our entire population. There's not a single redeeming thing I can say about your posts. They are sexist, assuming, and wrong. Just stop.
    BAD WOLF

  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    That doesn't change much, honestly. WoW does look very outdated compared to many - I'd say most - modern games for many, many, many people. Character models are going to help a bit with that (and even then there's a question of will they help enough? enough to justify the apparently enormous time costs? not sure, really...).
    I think you underestimate how much money they will get back with people buying race changes and faction changes.

    There is already many people wanting to go alliance after seeing those models in my guild, can't be the only ones.
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  10. #270
    The new female model looks pretty horrible lol. I'm sorry but after being used to playing ... modern games, instead of WoW an actual 10 year old game, I can't really take even the new models serious.
    ♦ Scepticist ♦ Critic ♦ INTJ

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelimbror View Post
    As a member of the male community, you should sit down and keep your mouth shut.
    The last time I checked, I live in a free country. Maybe that's something you want to change?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelimbror View Post
    You are a horrible representation of our sex and I would prefer you speak for yourself and not on behalf of our entire population. There's not a single redeeming thing I can say about your posts. They are sexist, assuming, and wrong. Just stop.
    "I'm not like everybody else".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    I think you underestimate how much money they will get back with people buying race changes and faction changes.

    There is already many people wanting to go alliance after seeing those models in my guild, can't be the only ones.
    That's true. I don't think Blizz will play favourites with the new models though in order to encourage people to race change.

    I know people who would play as human males but can't stand the way they look. The new models might change that.

  12. #272
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    I'm not like everybody else
    Certainly. Most people know when their foot should be put in their mouth. Fair warning though, being hostile and baiting people into conversations that you pepper with open sexism is skirting the lines of forum rules at best. This isn't General Off topic. This is the WoW forum. I'd suggest you save your bigotry for those forums where it seems anything goes, no matter how inflammatory. It doesn't belong here.
    BAD WOLF

  13. #273
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    I quit this game but old players have always said they would come back to play it once the game gets updated character models.
    pro-gun liberal

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelimbror View Post
    Certainly. Most people know when their foot should be put in their mouth. Fair warning though, being hostile and baiting people into conversations that you pepper with open sexism is skirting the lines of forum rules at best. This isn't General Off topic. This is the WoW forum. I'd suggest you save your bigotry for those forums where it seems anything goes, no matter how inflammatory. It doesn't belong here.
    I'm not being sexist. I am merely stating that WoW is still played mostly by men, and therefore the game needs to reflect its audience.

    Like with these new character models. Blizz could be politically correct if they want. The original Night Elf female models certainly weren't politically correct so I wonder if Blizz will change them.

    Time will tell.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelimbror View Post
    Certainly. Most people know when their foot should be put in their mouth. Fair warning though, being hostile and baiting people into conversations that you pepper with open sexism is skirting the lines of forum rules at best. This isn't General Off topic. This is the WoW forum. I'd suggest you save your bigotry for those forums where it seems anything goes, no matter how inflammatory. It doesn't belong here.
    You may not like what he says but it was inline with the discussion.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    The last time I checked, I live in a free country. Maybe that's something you want to change?
    No need to expand things to a national scale. For starters, it would really do if you just bit a sock. Sexists generally shouldn't talk much.

  17. #277
    The game was graphically broken. We had characters that were ancient looking, whilst others looked amazing. You shouldn't have to feel forced to play a certain race because the graphics looked outdated. All races should be equally playable by any person wishing to play said race. Had they ignored this, and moved on with adding more graphics without updating old content, they would be amateurs. Massive, careless amateurs. I'd expect such from a smaller game, but from a fee-based MMO like World of Warcraft? Not a chance.

  18. #278
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    Sweet Baby Moses... I honestly wonder what is wrong with some of you people.

    It's not enough to have models that are a massive improvement over the old, no. They have to be on par with games made in the last month, despite being made in an engine more than 10 years old. The level of intellect on this forum drops further and further each day. I cannot comprehend how some of you get dressed on a morning, let alone manage the posts you do. I also fail to understand why some of you are even here. You stopped playing years ago and hate WoW atm? Cool. Go find another game to enjoy perhaps rather than spew bile at those that still enjoy WoW?

    Rarely updated...

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Gps View Post
    I dont get why people are going crazy over the new models. We put armor over our characters and zoom all the way out. Its not like you'll prob notice any difference.
    Because the game is a decade old and putting a new coat of paint on everything just makes the game shine that much more. And the models aren't the only things being ameliorated; more importantly, the character animations, facial expressions, and fluidity of their movement overall is being improved upon -- which makes a colossal difference, even if you're "just armored up and zoomed out."

    Also, why do you think all major websites overhaul their designs once in a while?

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Tya View Post
    It's not just models, it's animations too.
    Exactly. And unless you're zoomed out to the max, your character will have smoother edges, better shading, etc. That, along with the animations of how they run, jump, use abilities, and cast spells will give an all around beautiful improvement graphically (and I'd argue gameplay wise too to some degree). The gameplay also takes into account the immersion factor which in my opinion will be enhanced with MUCH improved character models.

    Just wait until its out and (if you have the computer) running on max graphics and you'll see. I can almost guarantee it will make the expansion feel a lot more fresh than previous ones.

    Sure, we zoom out and often are focused on what the enemy is doing and maybe our action bars but your character's animation is always in your peripherals and you'll notice the improvement. Plus in pvp, the enemy you're attacking will have improved looks. It just goes back to what I was saying about immersion. It's just gonna make the game look and feel better, more fresh, and more up to date.

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