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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Karlzone View Post
    What? Percentage doesn't change even if you add more people.
    ...What? Do you know how percentages work <.<?
    A stable 10 man has 2, maybe 3 people on the bench. A stable 25 man has about 10 people on the bench because there's a far bigger chance of someone having to be absent in a 25 man than there is in a 10 man, not to mention the fact that setups are far more important in 25 than 10, meaning you NEED that many people.
    12/2 (12 people, 2 pieces of loot)= 1 piece per 6 people.
    36/6 (36 people, 6 pieces of loot)= 1 piece per 6 people.
    That's about as simple as I can put it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaniki View Post
    So you have a dozen ppl sitting out every raid? that's more on you than the loot system.
    I can say I have a 20 men roster for 10man raid, and then I'll conclude that 10man is 5 times worse than 25man at gearing just from anecdotal evidence. See what I did here? It's pointless to draw conclusions from a sample size of one.
    Haha. No. Any raid you have to expect 3-4 people being suddenly absent (IRL emergencies, plans, whatever can make you absent really), and in 25 man, the setups are far more important for specific bosses than they are for 10 man (a great example would be Lei Shen from last tier - any 25 man HAD to get 2x dks for the fight, but it could be done with any setup in 10 man). A 35 man roster for 25 man is simply something that's neccessary - and keeping the benched people happy by switching people in and out etc... Have you never wondered why one of the biggest complaints from guild leaders about 25 mans is the extra amount of work that has to be done?
    Either way, you can put out as much anecdotal evidence as you want - in the end, I really couldn't care less. I lead a healthy top 50 guild, and I have tons of friends in both raid sizes. I know my numbers are pretty accurate, on average (there's outliers in both sizes and on both ends of the spectrum).

    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    It's not only WF/TF differences but its the main contributor, the other is that you rarely waste gear in 25man, where in 10man its not unusual to DE hc wf gear simply cuz noone can use it.

    Looking purely at ilvl, didnt method have like 4 ilvls more then paragons when they both had garrosh left ? Should answer it all, no ?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Most serious 10man i've been in have a stable 14-16 man rooster. Not many serious 10man runs 11 and 12 ppl, it just isnt viable...
    And thats ignoring that you keep a 10 man bench, more on you then anything else.
    I'd love the names of those 10 mans. I've got contacts in multiple top 50 10 mans from the EU side, and they've had a maximum of 13 people during progress.
    As for the Ilvl difference,
    Recorded Guild Item Level: 566.65 (25-man) <-- Method.

    Recorded Guild Item Level: 565.66 (10-man) <--- Paragon.


    It's pretty close - but that aside, Method did far more for their item level advantage than Paragon did. I mean, 8x 25 man runs the first week as Aladya claimed previously - if I recall correct, Paragon did 3 runs, but that could be wrong (if anyone has the correct number, feel free to say so).
    I'm also not aware if Paragon did the same as Method did during heroic modes - Method would kill a boss on heroic, then take the mains that were left out for the boss kill, and kill it again on normal to maximize loot. As Paragon kept a 10 (11?) man roster, that would neither have been productive nor worth it, I guess - which means that you effectively have so many more raids worth of loot for Method because of the way they played.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qaniki View Post
    By that reasoning a healthy 10man raid will have 13-15 members, not just 12. The numbers would be huge for 25man if you do the math.
    No, because you assume
    1:
    That bosses are as setup-dependant in 10 man as they are in 25 - they're not, so you're going to need a larger bench in 25 purely due to setup issues (Thok heroic was 8 healed during progress, siegecrafter was 4 healed, in 25 man. In 10 man, that was 3/2 healers. Usually you have a designated hybrid to switch between dps/heal for 10 man heroic guilds to keep the team even tighter, but I'll concede that this could be a bench spot as the same COULD be done for 25. So, just because of healing setups, 25 man had to have 3 more people on the bench to get through the tier).
    2:
    That the amount of absenses and attendance issues will be the same between 10 and 25. If you have one person absent in a 10 man from a raid, that's one person you need on the bench - but in 25 man, you're just as likely to have 2.5 (3) players absent as a 10 man is to have one player absent. It's basic math. You need more people on the bench to be able to fill in for absent people, because there's more people to be absent.

    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    On non tier bosses, it can happen and i've seen it personally more then once, its extremely rare tho. And when ticketed to GM they claim "working as intended".
    Really? Any evidence of it anywhere ? I've seen 3x items drop from the same boss multiple times this tier alone, but I've been clearing 10 man norm / heroic on my alts since T11 basicly every single week, oftenly on multiple alts per week, and I have *never* seen a double drop of anything. It could just be shitty luck never having seen it, I guess. Well, apart from getting 2x firestones (one instead of loot, one as an "extra") once in firelands, I guess...
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2014-01-26 at 05:47 PM.

  2. #82
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Isn't that why everyone will be happy with just one raidsize in Mythical raiding?

    Oh wait...there were already complaints - of course.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Atfirst View Post
    when there is like 20 loot for each boss, certain item drop has such low drop chance for 10 man

    I play shadow priest and just to let everyone know how UNLUCKY I am on trinkets (currently im ilvl 572, every item heroic except BOTH trinkets)

    Immerseus trinket -> 15 kills on heroic (dropped once, our elemental shaman got it)
    Immerseus trinket -> 15 bonus rolls used on heroic (almost got every item TWICE for shadow spezialation, but no trinket)

    Korkron Dark Shaman trinket -> 12 kills on heroic + 12 bonus rolls on heroic = no trinket (0 actual drops so far)

    currently running with Garrosh normal trinket and Lei Shen Normal forged
    Looks I'll replacing them with WoD greens.....
    Kind of annoying when people take their personal experience with loot/etc and use it to declare an entire system bad/crap/whatever.

    "I can't afford a cheeseburger at McDonalds, CLEARLY THEIR ENTIRE MENU IS OVERPRICED AND UNREASONABLE."

    My gnome tank won 4 drops in 10man last night (including 2 significant upgrades), and I've seen 25 man raids where nothing dropped for me.

    The lesson here is: random loot is random. If you want to blog here about your bad luck that's your prerogative, but your experiences don't speak of everyone's. Sorry.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishpsycho View Post
    This^^ Trinket from Immersius, took our dps ages to all get it. Our Lock used a Normal one for Heroic Garrosh lol.
    I killed heroic Garosh 4 time and i still have the flex version ...
    Boulé, healing druid, EU-Arak-arahm
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyubey
    So if you ever feel like dying for the sake of the universe, please call me anytime.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by xiic View Post
    You have at least two posts in the front page about how "bad" your luck is with RNG in 25 man. Obviously RNG is RNG, the RNG is just a whole lot better in 25 man. I can't wait to farm 25 for the rest of this xpac.
    You are totally right, but don't act like these long streaks of bad lukc can't happen in 25 man. I killed Heroic Sha of Fear in T14 with a blue quality shield because I never saw one drop.....

    Why is this even being argued about though? They fixed this issue, along with many others stemmed by having 2 raid difficulties.

  6. #86
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    ...What? Do you know how percentages work <.<?
    A stable 10 man has 2, maybe 3 people on the bench. A stable 25 man has about 10 people on the bench because there's a far bigger chance of someone having to be absent in a 25 man than there is in a 10 man, not to mention the fact that setups are far more important in 25 than 10, meaning you NEED that many people.
    12/2 (12 people, 2 pieces of loot)= 1 piece per 6 people.
    36/6 (36 people, 6 pieces of loot)= 1 piece per 6 people.
    That's about as simple as I can put it.



    Haha. No. Any raid you have to expect 3-4 people being suddenly absent (IRL emergencies, plans, whatever can make you absent really), and in 25 man, the setups are far more important for specific bosses than they are for 10 man (a great example would be Lei Shen from last tier - any 25 man HAD to get 2x dks for the fight, but it could be done with any setup in 10 man). A 35 man roster for 25 man is simply something that's neccessary - and keeping the benched people happy by switching people in and out etc... Have you never wondered why one of the biggest complaints from guild leaders about 25 mans is the extra amount of work that has to be done?
    Either way, you can put out as much anecdotal evidence as you want - in the end, I really couldn't care less. I lead a healthy top 50 guild, and I have tons of friends in both raid sizes. I know my numbers are pretty accurate, on average (there's outliers in both sizes and on both ends of the spectrum).



    I'd love the names of those 10 mans. I've got contacts in multiple top 50 10 mans from the EU side, and they've had a maximum of 13 people during progress.
    As for the Ilvl difference,
    Recorded Guild Item Level: 566.65 (25-man) <-- Method.

    Recorded Guild Item Level: 565.66 (10-man) <--- Paragon.


    It's pretty close - but that aside, Method did far more for their item level advantage than Paragon did. I mean, 8x 25 man runs the first week as Aladya claimed previously - if I recall correct, Paragon did 3 runs, but that could be wrong (if anyone has the correct number, feel free to say so).
    I'm also not aware if Paragon did the same as Method did during heroic modes - Method would kill a boss on heroic, then take the mains that were left out for the boss kill, and kill it again on normal to maximize loot. As Paragon kept a 10 (11?) man roster, that would neither have been productive nor worth it, I guess - which means that you effectively have so many more raids worth of loot for Method because of the way they played.




    No, because you assume
    1:
    That bosses are as setup-dependant in 10 man as they are in 25 - they're not, so you're going to need a larger bench in 25 purely due to setup issues (Thok heroic was 8 healed during progress, siegecrafter was 4 healed, in 25 man. In 10 man, that was 3/2 healers. Usually you have a designated hybrid to switch between dps/heal for 10 man heroic guilds to keep the team even tighter, but I'll concede that this could be a bench spot as the same COULD be done for 25. So, just because of healing setups, 25 man had to have 3 more people on the bench to get through the tier).
    2:
    That the amount of absenses and attendance issues will be the same between 10 and 25. If you have one person absent in a 10 man from a raid, that's one person you need on the bench - but in 25 man, you're just as likely to have 2.5 (3) players absent as a 10 man is to have one player absent. It's basic math. You need more people on the bench to be able to fill in for absent people, because there's more people to be absent.



    Really? Any evidence of it anywhere ? I've seen 3x items drop from the same boss multiple times this tier alone, but I've been clearing 10 man norm / heroic on my alts since T11 basicly every single week, oftenly on multiple alts per week, and I have *never* seen a double drop of anything. It could just be shitty luck never having seen it, I guess. Well, apart from getting 2x firestones (one instead of loot, one as an "extra") once in firelands, I guess...
    Talk about anecdotal evidence here...... You claim that Heroic Lei Shen could be done with any setup on 10 man - BS! If you didn't have a Lock, several people would be fucked, if they got Helm of Command. You don't think 10 man groups needed a DK to control the adds either? Well guess what, without a DK during progress it was a nightmare.

    10 man is generally a nightmare when it comes to setup, whenever you have bosses like Lei Shen or Garrosh. Our Lock has exams atm and thus he can't raid. GG Heroic Garrosh. Having our Rogue kill the Engineer, cause he's the only one who can do the burst = losing a crap ton of single target dps on Garrosh himself. Not having Gateway for the Rogue to get back fast, not having Health Stones, not having Shadowfury during Jade Serpent intermission. We had to give up, cause we couldn't cover all interrupts, without a Lock.

    Keep in mind, that there's a big difference between having enough alts to cherry pick the perfect setup for a 10 man raid and then having a 13 people roster with limited options. There's also a big difference between progressing as strict 10 man and then running in there after having cleared the shit for months on your mains. More gear, makes things easier.

    Serious 10 man guilds want 13 players in the roster, 12 just isn't enough.

    And don't compare Method to Paragon when it comes to farming gear. Method - like many other 25 man guilds have way more players in their roster, you said so yourself. I don't even know, how many players Method have in their roster but I'm fairly sure it's a lot more than Paragon have.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    You are totally right, but don't act like these long streaks of bad lukc can't happen in 25 man. I killed Heroic Sha of Fear in T14 with a blue quality shield because I never saw one drop.....

    Why is this even being argued about though? They fixed this issue, along with many others stemmed by having 2 raid difficulties.
    Yeah I know it happens in 25 man too. And that's funny cause I tanked all of heroic t14 and the first few bosses in heroic tot with a blue shield too

    I don't know why this is being argued, people will argue about anything.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishpsycho View Post
    Talk about anecdotal evidence here...... You claim that Heroic Lei Shen could be done with any setup on 10 man - BS! If you didn't have a Lock, several people would be fucked, if they got Helm of Command. You don't think 10 man groups needed a DK to control the adds either? Well guess what, without a DK during progress it was a nightmare.
    I know for a fact you needed neither of those. Perhaps your group was just "that bad" that you HAD to have a lock for the no-speedboost classes, but fact is that if you did the transistion as it was supposed to be done, it was completly unnessecary. I can go over it for you -
    Set up on platform, be in the "inner" part of your specific platform (in front of the circle that marks which platform it is basicly). You get overcharge. As soon as overcharge goes out, everyone on that specific platform runs forwards towards the middle. If you got helm, you now have enough space to survive without any speedboost at all. Gratz! You did the fight correct. This was doable in both sizes, but made *alot* more difficult in 25 man mainly due to having double the people or more on each platform, meaning space got very limited (and you'd sometimes have overcharges too far out for it to work if you were unlucky).
    As for needing a DK to control adds or it was a nightmare... Please. That's just silly. You might have wanted AOE stuns, but with only 3 adds spawning, mass grip on every other spawn didn't make a damn difference.

    10 man is generally a nightmare when it comes to setup, whenever you have bosses like Lei Shen or Garrosh. Our Lock has exams atm and thus he can't raid. GG Heroic Garrosh. Having our Rogue kill the Engineer, cause he's the only one who can do the burst = losing a crap ton of single target dps on Garrosh himself. Not having Gateway for the Rogue to get back fast, not having Health Stones, not having Shadowfury during Jade Serpent intermission. We had to give up, cause we couldn't cover all interrupts, without a Lock.
    One: You're picking the most OP of all utility classes, a warlock, as an example. But let's just go for it anyway:
    You have absolutely no need to kill Garrosh before "X" amount of ironstars has passed through. Sure, it's nice to skip a desecrate or a wave of adds, or a third ironstar - whatever. It doesn't matter, though - it is not a requirement. Saying you lose a ton of dps on garrosh is completly irrellevant, as there is no dps check to speak of on that phase.
    As for your rogue taking out the engineer, gz - 25 man also has rogues sitting on the engineer fulltime (3 during progress, 2 now - which is equal to the one rogue in 10 man) - not even returning to the boss to DPS, actually.
    That said, you have absolutely no reason not to send a few mobile dpsers there to take it out quickly if you so desire. Getting the phase over with is not a race, as I've already mentioned.
    As for your intermission, of course you won't be able to cover all interrupts if you suddenly lack an AOE interrupt you had before, and your entire strategy was build up around that exact setup. Redo the strategy (it sucks, I know) and it'll be fine. Personally in 25 man we had shit setups for the first few nights in jade temple (not enough AOE silences/stuns to do 5 groups), so we just went for the 3-2 group; 8 DPS on each side, tanks+2 dotters in the middle. Blow up each side with 2x AOE interrupts, roar, get inside, blow up each side with 9 dps + 1 tank on each side with 2x AOE interrupts more. Total of 4 AOE interrupts, and whatever the tanks are using to lock their adds out.
    Point is - your raid size is more usually than not designed around not having every tool, while in 25 man, it's assumed you do. Were the DK's nice for balls on Lei Shen? Perhaps. Were they neccessary? In 10 man, no. In 25 man, yes.

    Keep in mind, that there's a big difference between having enough alts to cherry pick the perfect setup for a 10 man raid and then having a 13 people roster with limited options. There's also a big difference between progressing as strict 10 man and then running in there after having cleared the shit for months on your mains. More gear, makes things easier.
    Huh? What exactly does that mean? Did I imply that I run in there on my main just to get a look at it? Sorry if I did, I play multiple alt characters, and usually we run our alt raid alongside the main raid (1 day per week during progress, 2-3 outside of progress). Been a bit slack this tier admittedly, though. Best tier was when we cleared DS at 10% with them I guess.
    And no, that's not a cherry picked setup of the best alts either - it's whomever wants to go. ATM we're running... Blood dk + prot warr, fury, rogue, ret, enh, warlock, boomkin, hunter dps and pally/disc healers for the setup.

    Serious 10 man guilds want 13 players in the roster, 12 just isn't enough.
    I did say 11-13. Point still stands, 13*3=39, and 25 man wants 35-38 to be "healthy".


    And don't compare Method to Paragon when it comes to farming gear. Method - like many other 25 man guilds have way more players in their roster, you said so yourself. I don't even know, how many players Method have in their roster but I'm fairly sure it's a lot more than Paragon have.
    Uhm. I wasn't comparing them, someone said that method had a much better item level, and I stated the reason why they had that. Of course Method has more players than Paragon - that's the entire point, they benefitted from running multiple clear raids, Paragon didn't. Consider this -
    Paragon's main chars were:
    Guardian Druid
    Balance Druid
    Warlock
    Mage
    Warlock
    Hunter
    Mistweaver
    Prot Pally
    Fury Warrior
    Healing priest.
    To make no loot go to waste, you'd go something like this:
    Guardian+Warlock+Hunter+Fury warrior.
    Prot pally+Mistweaver+Warlock.
    Mage+Boomkin+Healing priest.

    Doing more than 3 runs wouldn't have netted them... Well, anything, really, apart from OS gear.
    If Method did 8 runs as stated earlier, though, you could keep each item slot pretty much filled with a main in every raid. So accounting for the extra raiders that fills the bench, even though Method might have had 30-35 raiders (they keep a surprisingly tight roster, btw) they would still have done 6 runs versus paragons 3 runs.
    Then comes the fact that during 2 weeks of progression, they were running double runs (one heroic, one normal for the unsaved mains) to optimise even more loot - something Paragon didn't, because they only had 10 raiders (no one sitting out for heroic kills), as far as I am aware.

    So yea. If you believe that Paragon and Method's ilvls should be similiar after Method literally got 4-5 resets more worth of normal gear than Paragon did due to the way they run their progression, then fair enough I guess. It makes absolutely no sense to me, but hey.

  9. #89
    I'm still running with heroic version of Spark of Zandalar , even tho it dropped 2 weeks before SoO... I had lei shen heroic trinket for the whole ToT. I guess I'll get thok one near the end of expansion or something unless we go 25 man.

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