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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    I found every one of the BC 5 mans interesting and fun in their own ways. When people claim that the environments are not varied in the wing dungeons, thats complete bullshit.

    Different architecture, different lighting, different enemies. Just because the THEME was similar did not mean that it was a rehash of the first dungeon they put in that wing of dungeons.

    I go into ramparts and i feel as if i am outside a large fortress, and I am killing bosses and enemies there to protect the fortress entrance. I enter blood furnace and I feel a huge demonic presence. Fel orcs doing twisted things, warlocks summoning demons, fel demons and engineers throwing dynamite at you and dropping bombs. The bosses are way much more varied than ramparts. I go into shattered halls and its a completely different feel from blood furnace and ramparts. It feels more harsh, warriory, rugged, spikey. It feels like the enemies there are brutal warriors. Theres enemies with guns, axes, fire arrows, gauntlet, a huge ogre, fire and brimstone. It feels totally different. Just because the architecture's theme is similar does not mean its a rehash of another dungeon. It is a completely different experience.

    Same with the serpent shrine cavern dungeons, same with the tempest keep dungeons. They all look simliar in theme, but they each individually feel distinct, and varied. Same with the Wotlk 5 mans that were added with ICC. Stop playing that bs card of "oh hey BC dungeons were all rehashes because they belonged in the same wing of dungeons"
    The dungeons rehashed in Cata and MOP were no different in terms of all the differences you mention. That being the case, you obviously are pro-rehash then, amirite? I mean, they only share style with the original, not lighting, or bosses, or trash, or anything else. the fight were new, and vastly more interesting and fun too.

    Sorry, thematic similarity make it hard for the first one, and easy for the next # in the same theme. There is no difference in what you say in support of BC dungeons, and against Cata/MOP/WoD rehashes.

  2. #222
    Scenarios are garbage
    I found Scenarios before they took out loot, or but especially heroic scenarios to be the funnest content. Skill and ability meant Victory. If you didnt do it perfect victory with a lower case V. People are simultaneously able to work as a group but contribute greatly individually.

    Further more they put more RP/LORE into your dungeon so you can Lore while you dungeon. More story intensive since the mechanics aren't based on "trifecta" balance

  3. #223
    I wouldn't be shocked if the reason they are doing this is they are going to add a bunch of 5 mans throughout WoD.

    Instead of doing Wrath where they added a total of 4, I think this time they will add 5-7 every tier. (As a note its confirmed they will add more, its listed as on their "what is WoD" site.)

    Doing it this way makes more sense as, ya, 12 5 mans would be fun. But what about when they don't add anymore? It makes sense to spread it out.

    This would also make sense in that their likely new non-raider endgame will probably look like this: LFR=heroic dungeon=open world/garrisons. If the end game looks anywhere close to that (they've been hinting strongly at it since Blizzcon), they HAVE to have a large amount of added 5 mans every tier.

  4. #224
    Im sad since i live for dungeon crawling. The forced RP story modes really ruined most MoP dungeons. This problem was fore-shadowed in CoT Stratholme.

    It saddens me that the company that gave us Diablo, could screw up the dungeon crawling format in its latest 2 realeases, Diablo 3 and MoP.

  5. #225
    Looking at some of their tweets, you can see what happened during MoP. They thought everyone would be content with LFR as their end game gearing. While many like that, many also would've preferred options instead of being forced into LFR for their only source of gear.

    Hence, their complete abandonment of 5 mans. This time, they've said "ya, running LFR for months isn't the most compelling gameplay in the world for most." Which is why they said they will add more 5 mans throughout this time.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker76 View Post
    Im sad since i live for dungeon crawling. The forced RP story modes really ruined most MoP dungeons. This problem was fore-shadowed in CoT Stratholme.

    It saddens me that the company that gave us Diablo, could screw up the dungeon crawling format in its latest 2 realeases, Diablo 3 and MoP.
    Just because you dont like it, doesnt mean it is "screwed up".

    It being a grind fest was well and good when it was the only way to advance to getting ready for Raiding, and some of the only content most people could play at max level.

    But now that it isnt that way they can put some actual effort into bring the World back into "World of Warcraft".

    The only thing 'bad" about CoT STratholme was the fact that you couldnt skip the intro if no one had done the quest yet.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    So we get another expansion with 10 levels to level up like TBC and Wrath, YET, they come out and say there will only be 5 new dungeons and 2 rehashed dungeons. So a total of 7 "new" dungeons? While comparing that to TBC with 15 new dungeons. That means 15 dungeons with unique bosses, loot for each boss, and varied environments.

    Is blizzard getting too comfortable with giving their player base less content just because we have grown accustomed to the lack of content in the past 2 expansions?

    I would think the casual playerbase would also be upset because that just means there is a lack of things to do for them aside from LFR (which even they dont feel is real content).

    WoD looks beautiful. I think they really shot for the stars on this expansion, I just wish they would have been more creative and focused on more 5 man content at release. I think we will get more 5 man dungeons over the course of the expansion, but it feels lame compared to 15 brand new dungeons from the get go of TBC.

    Thoughts?
    Sorry friend but at release BC had only 14 dungeons. You got that many because of the design of the expansion. You ran the first 2 on normal til honored then the last one until exalted on normal difficulty or all 3 on heroic until exalted. It seems the idea behind WoD isn't for players to farm dungeons to gain faction rep or they would naturally have made more. My guess is they have other things for players to do besides mindlessly run 5 mans for a year or two.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Naztrak View Post
    Someone will probably say quality > quantity, but a lot of the mop dungeons were just a piece of shit
    Mop dungeons weren't bad - the difficulty was just tuned for people with the IQ of a fork which made them feel irrelevant.

  9. #229
    You conveniently forget that those "15" dungeons used the same environments recycled over and over with just a minor tweak here and there. Mana-Tombs, Shadow Labyrinth Auchenai Cripts, and Sektekk Halls all used the same environments, so that's ONE.

    Slave Pens, Underbog and Steamvault all used the same environments, so that's TWO.

    Hellfire Ramparts, Blood Furnace, and Shattered Halls all used the exact same environments, so that's THREE.

    Mechanar, Botanica, and Arcatraz all used the same environments, so that's FOUR.

    And then we have the other instances which rather than offer new environments, just recycled props from the zones in the game. Old Hillsbrad was just a copy-paste of Hillsbrad. Black Morass was just a copy-paste of Swamp of Sorrows. Magister Terrace was just a copypaste of every blood elf building we've seen.

    In total, we got 4 new environments recycled multiple times for several dungeons, and 3 dungeons who couldn't even do that and instead just copied environments from the zones in the game.

    Ohh yes, the superior quality OOZES on those production values. See how things work when you take off the nostalgia goggles?

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  10. #230
    Moderator Krekko's Avatar
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    Derah's comment hit the nail right on the head.

    We romanticize the fact that TBC had so many dungeons, but many of them were very minor changes to the environment. If Blizzard did that now, you'd see a ton of backlash too.

    "Wow, Blizzard, way to give us the same 4 instances using one basic model, are you really that lazy that all you did was change the mobs and props? Come on Bli$$!!!!1!1!!!"

    People would argue that they were being uncreative, and the instances were uninspired. People would complain that it was not unique enough.

    Honestly, is it bad that they were just same body different clothes? No. Just as it's not bad that they went with a less, but "more" methodology moving on from it.
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  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Manataurus View Post
    I'm relatively certain that they're talking about the amount at launch. There will most likely be more added in later patches.
    You mean like they did in MoP? Oh wait..

  12. #232
    Mechagnome beardedcandy's Avatar
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    MANY TBC dungeons were almost never run (auchidon in particular) just because of how awful they were. That said, I would love 15 dungeons, even with reused artwork. 5 Mans are the funnest part of wow.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Courierrawr View Post
    You mean like they did in MoP? Oh wait..
    The developers didnt say they would add more. Some time after 4.1, GC said he regretted planning for more. Content wise expansions are generally planned out before it even launches and all that can generally be done is introduction of a new feature that was already planned or a feature using already available or to be available content. The developers was so sure of themselves that LFR would prove to be the long term grind replacement of shorter alternatives for non-raiders. Because of this no dungeon content was planned to be designed and LFR was propped up heavily with rewards over non-raid content in order to insure players spent time in it. This failed dispite various attempts to make LFR more rewarding and pulling rewards away from other players like tier gear on vendors and VP vendor gear. Yeah Blizzard likes to do stupid stuff even ones that dont sound logical like shoving players who have no interests in raiding into the very thing they didnt like in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by lyphe View Post
    Mop dungeons weren't bad - the difficulty was just tuned for people with the IQ of a fork which made them feel irrelevant.
    Which very much feels like intended as players was supposed to quickly gear up and get shoved into LFR meaning that less experienced players would still do them especially when alternatives was made more efficient. The developers didnt want players to use five mans as their long term content. Even scenarios and dailies would get overshadowed by LFR while being a far shorter grind than LFR.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2014-01-25 at 02:59 AM.

  14. #234
    I was planning on getting WoD just to check it out and see how it is. But now I'm considering not getting it at all. They can't be bothered to make raids, can't be bothered to add more 5 mans, the content for WoD as a whole is lacking...what exactly am I paying for?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by beardedcandy View Post
    MANY TBC dungeons were almost never run (auchidon in particular) just because of how awful they were.
    Uhhh BS. Everyone did all of them when they farmed badges.

  15. #235
    Pandaren Monk Fullmetal89's Avatar
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    Well better to bitch and moan now then wait until Xpac is released and get disappointed. I personally feel that WoD doesn't sound like a full expansion from the stuff that has been revealed. While I'm excited to experience the new area I don't know it feels a bit anemic. Unless Garrisons is something that will add 100s of hours of gameplay I can't see anything substantial about this xpac. This feels like what Cata felt back when it was released, I'll play it for 2-3 months then cancel my account till the next xpac.
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  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Derah View Post
    You conveniently forget that those "15" dungeons used the same environments recycled over and over with just a minor tweak here and there. Mana-Tombs, Shadow Labyrinth Auchenai Cripts, and Sektekk Halls all used the same environments, so that's ONE.

    Slave Pens, Underbog and Steamvault all used the same environments, so that's TWO.

    Hellfire Ramparts, Blood Furnace, and Shattered Halls all used the exact same environments, so that's THREE.

    Mechanar, Botanica, and Arcatraz all used the same environments, so that's FOUR.

    And then we have the other instances which rather than offer new environments, just recycled props from the zones in the game. Old Hillsbrad was just a copy-paste of Hillsbrad. Black Morass was just a copy-paste of Swamp of Sorrows. Magister Terrace was just a copypaste of every blood elf building we've seen.

    In total, we got 4 new environments recycled multiple times for several dungeons, and 3 dungeons who couldn't even do that and instead just copied environments from the zones in the game.

    Ohh yes, the superior quality OOZES on those production values. See how things work when you take off the nostalgia goggles?
    I could care less for the same architecture.

    Each dungeon had different bossfights/mechanics and loot.
    ~45 vs ~25 bossfights. Thats what is important for me. Not some visual snowflakes.

  17. #237
    Pandaren Monk Fullmetal89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    I was planning on getting WoD just to check it out and see how it is. But now I'm considering not getting it at all. They can't be bothered to make raids, can't be bothered to add more 5 mans, the content for WoD as a whole is lacking...what exactly am I paying for?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Uhhh BS. Everyone did all of them when they farmed badges.
    As someone who was very active in BC I can testify to this. If you played BC and you weren't doing a raid you where running heroics for rep/gold/enchant mats and badges.
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  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    Only because they were so easy and throw away. WoD dungeons will be much harder. They compared the difficulty to pre nerf Vortex Pinnacle.
    They had better give people the tools to actually heal through it this time then.

    One more screw up like Cataclysm and even the firing of Ghostcrawler won't save their hides.

  19. #239
    Cata dungeons were fine. People were bitching about them before they were out of blue gear.

    You know they were fine because they didn't nerf them, they just gave people doing them through LFG a buff, and left preformed groups with the original difficulty. Implying that LFG and random retards are the problem.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Paintank View Post
    Hey its you again, so how many whine threads did you make again?
    Just to make you remember, development for BC was always WAY longer...
    I'll play devil's advocate: Blizzard has a LOT more developers, QA Software testers, architects, designers, engineers, project managers, business analysts, etc etc.... WAY more. Back in 2005 they didn't have half of those positions, let alone tons of each of them.

    So, your point is moot. YES it takes more development/testing time, but they ALSO have plenty of resources and money to back that up.

    I'm a software developer, not going to say they need to release more content, but the excuse that they took longer? No. They took longer because they were stretching the resources they had, it's tough to push a release out with time constraints, even worse with everyone doing three times the work they should be, but with their size and staffing, that's not even an issue at this point.

    Also, people need to understand something: It's not the actual development/coding that's time consuming. It's the analysis, impact considerations, business requirements, design, revisit the design, more requirements, more redesign, impact assessment, impact, test case development, test case documentation, requirements rework, reqwuirements documentation.... the listgoes on and on.

    Coding it? Some days here and there, probably a month combined total considering the number of devs they have (not a month at once, but of solid, straight coding time).

    SDLC (look it up if you don't know) is quite the process at ANY large software company, I'm assuming Blizzard is probably Agile or Waterfall, either way it's a rigorous process working through something as extensive as an expansion.

    TL ; DR: Development is not the sole reason for the drop in content, content is much more expensive and extensive to produce, so they're making less of it for the same expense. Considering the loss in subs every year for almost 3 years, that's acceptable business practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Komie View Post
    They still say Cata needs a lot of work, and this expansion (edit for reference: MoP) is in the final stages.
    Quoted for... truth? on 11/30/2011.

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