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  1. #241
    Stood in the Fire intrinsc's Avatar
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    Didn't TBC take like 3 years to come out? You do the math.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebbikenezer View Post
    TL ; DR: Development is not the sole reason for the drop in content, content is much more expensive and extensive to produce, so they're making less of it for the same expense. Considering the loss in subs every year for almost 3 years, that's acceptable business practice.
    My issue is that we all know they CAN put out more content, though. Some indie games put out more content than they do. Bliz made 200 million+ this year from the shop ALONE, yet we can't get more than 5(7) dungeons? Please. They just aren't willing to invest in the game anymore so they'll give us as little as we'll take.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    My issue is that we all know they CAN put out more content, though. Some indie games put out more content than they do. Bliz made 200 million+ this year from the shop ALONE, yet we can't get more than 5(7) dungeons? Please. They just aren't willing to invest in the game anymore so they'll give us as little as we'll take.
    From a development standpoint indie games tend to be far more simple and less resources intensive to make that AAA games which feature higher levels of detail to various aspects of the game including art, event, and balance. We would likely see much more content if Blizzard didnt update the level of detail from Classic including character models.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    So we get another expansion with 10 levels to level up like TBC and Wrath, YET, they come out and say there will only be 5 new dungeons and 2 rehashed dungeons. So a total of 7 "new" dungeons? While comparing that to TBC with 15 new dungeons. That means 15 dungeons with unique bosses, loot for each boss, and varied environments.

    Is blizzard getting too comfortable with giving their player base less content just because we have grown accustomed to the lack of content in the past 2 expansions?

    I would think the casual playerbase would also be upset because that just means there is a lack of things to do for them aside from LFR (which even they dont feel is real content).

    WoD looks beautiful. I think they really shot for the stars on this expansion, I just wish they would have been more creative and focused on more 5 man content at release. I think we will get more 5 man dungeons over the course of the expansion, but it feels lame compared to 15 brand new dungeons from the get go of TBC.

    Thoughts?
    I do not understand the decision to add less dungeons for WoD than before (9 for MoP and Cata in a more recent past). Hpwever, in TBC, outside those dungeons, you had nothing to do which will not be the case for WoD. So, in all, I prefer to have 7 dungeons and plenty of other stuff than 15 dungeons and nothing else.

  5. #245
    and how many scenarios did bc have again?
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  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    My issue is that we all know they CAN put out more content, though. Some indie games put out more content than they do. Bliz made 200 million+ this year from the shop ALONE, yet we can't get more than 5(7) dungeons? Please. They just aren't willing to invest in the game anymore so they'll give us as little as we'll take.
    You run a business. Every year you sell product X for $$40. You get some kickback every month for Product X. You have (to keep it simple) 20 employees who each get paid 50k salary (1 Million expense per year).

    Your product sells 4 million per year. That's 160 million.

    Your agent (publisher) takes 90 of your 160 Million.

    Your marketing costs you 20 Million.

    Your maintenance costs you 60 million/year (cutting edge tech for product X).

    Your yearly kickback (subs) total about 42 Million after taxes, fees, associated licensing, maintenance, customer retenmtion, discounts for bulk, etc etc.

    You're sitting at 31 million profit.

    Oops, you have trademarks, patents, lawsuits, overseas affairs and legal matters to be handled. Away goes another 22 million.

    So, you are public, pay out dividends to your investors, and you know what? You are in the black. You show some profit. Not a ton, but enough to certainly keep you happy, and hey the employee benefits didn't really bother you much because it was enough to still be a multi million dollar public company.

    By the way: Your customers are young and don't understand the effort you just put into this. You have 8 months to produce the same exact results. You'll need to quadruple your staff, and even then product x_2 will really only be a mild extension of product X, but your customers are already invested, most of them will buy into it, HOWEVER you will lose some.

    It's a vicious cycle, especially being a public company when you have to show investors how you'll continue increasing profit to make them money on their money.

    Something has to give, somewhere, for that to happen. That's all I'm pointing out. You want 10+ dungeons, more content? Then sit down and wait an extra year. Otherwise, come up with a suggestion to balance this out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Komie View Post
    They still say Cata needs a lot of work, and this expansion (edit for reference: MoP) is in the final stages.
    Quoted for... truth? on 11/30/2011.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    My issue is that we all know they CAN put out more content, though. Some indie games put out more content than they do. Bliz made 200 million+ this year from the shop ALONE, yet we can't get more than 5(7) dungeons? Please. They just aren't willing to invest in the game anymore so they'll give us as little as we'll take.
    They said they are doing new dungeons every tier. That's more than fine.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Pilkie View Post
    Not only that but they're the buggiest of any dungeons i did. MoP is the first time through my many years of playing where I was unable to complete a dungeon due to bugs, wether it be the last boss in scarlet bugging and not ressing or someone that got locked out and caused the boss to despawn
    Im the opposite, this is the first version of the game ive never encountered bugs in the 5mans. Wrath - Tyrannus used to bug all the time, ToC5 used to bug non stop so you couldnt complete it. TBC where heroics could wipe the group if you didnt have interrupts in your group makeup. Where soft resetting to get a viable mob combo was almost required if you didnt have 5 skilled players in a semi PvP environment (Magisters). A mob which MC's everyone and throws them through a wall and bugs out an entire heroic, making said heroic impossible to finish until next day. Vanilla, well there were alot of bugs in random places, feared through walls/floor, pathing issues for pets (instead of straight flat line lets make the hunter pet run through 5 groups 30 yards to the left instead etc).

  9. #249
    Bloodsail Admiral Constraint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intrinsc View Post
    Didn't TBC take like 3 years to come out? You do the math.
    No. It took roughly the same time as the other expansions, plus had 2 additional races. Any further questions?

  10. #250
    I am starting to think that I am the only person who responded in the following ways:

    TBC: CRAP! More dungeons? And I gotta make a key to do what? Eff that, I'll roll alts.
    Wrath: Okay, not so bad, and I don't jump through hoops to do heroics. Still takes forever.
    Cata: Wait, you mean I need to do the instance to get the iLVL needed...to do the instance? What the balls? Dailies it is, then.
    MoP: Dungeons? Meh, there's STORY in them there zones.

    I play for story, and the story in dungeons rarely has any impact on the plot outside of them. So long as the zones have strong plots, I'm not going to care about dungeons. I don't raid because even in LFR people are c**kmongers who threaten to kick and report me because I'm having issues between lag and learning the encounters, and everyone I know IRL has realm hopped a few times, and I don't feel like starting from scratch with no gold flow every other week. I don't even do scenarios because I hate constantly having to chase everyone down because everyone freaking rushed through everything. I swear that's the reason the Pandas are so quick to tell us to "slow down."

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  11. #251
    Bloodsail Admiral Constraint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazu View Post
    Im the opposite, this is the first version of the game ive never encountered bugs in the 5mans. Wrath - Tyrannus used to bug all the time, ToC5 used to bug non stop so you couldnt complete it. TBC where heroics could wipe the group if you didnt have interrupts in your group makeup. Where soft resetting to get a viable mob combo was almost required if you didnt have 5 skilled players in a semi PvP environment (Magisters). A mob which MC's everyone and throws them through a wall and bugs out an entire heroic, making said heroic impossible to finish until next day. Vanilla, well there were alot of bugs in random places, feared through walls/floor, pathing issues for pets (instead of straight flat line lets make the hunter pet run through 5 groups 30 yards to the left instead etc).
    Forgive me for having an opinion, but I'd prefer BCs rather bug-free Heroics over MoPs insanely boring, RP-filled excuses for "Heroics" any day of the week. I never had any issues with bugs in BC heroics, besides Thrall occasionally becoming unresponsive at the end of Old Hillsbrad, which was, admittedly, fucking annoying, since that was without question the hardest heroic the game has ever seen.

    Sure, quantity isn't always better than quality, but what exactly is better in "quality" about MoPs heroics? Sure, there's more scripted events, but can you honestly argue that they're for the betterment of the dungeon experience?

    I mean, would you enjoy Shado-Pan less if they removed those goddamned jumping apprentice Pandas from the room after the frost arrows gauntlet? I certainly wouldn't. Would you enjoy Stormstout Brewery less if the dungeon was less about fighting thousands of Jazz Jackrabbits and getting Ooked in the Dook on a regular basis? Would you enjoy Gates of the Setting Sun less if you didn't have to stand around for 5 minutes while absurdly easy explosive mantids came at you 1 at a time?

    I'd be very surprised if you answered "yes" to any of the aforementioned questions.

    Perhaps if they spent a little less time scripting such fucking awful events, and more into actually creating instances, we'd have not only a greater variety of dungeons, but less tedious ones too. A win-win situation, so to speak.

    As for me, I'm a greedy one - I'd rather have a huge variety of dungeons AND constantly added ones every patch - but if they actually ARE going to add regular new ones, I'll settle for that. I'll believe it when I see it, however.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Constraint View Post
    No. It took roughly the same time as the other expansions, plus had 2 additional races. Any further questions?
    If you do a little checking, I think you'll find that a lot of BC was developed during the pre-launch period to vanilla. So three years is not a stretch. It was likely longer. It's standard practice for MMO's to have a pipeline of stuff to carry them through the first two years or so.

  13. #253
    The dungeons in MOP were horribly designed and forgettable. The brewery was just plain stupid and the rest were totally boring especially the one with the mantids. I really hope the few WOD dungeons we get are interesting, because the MOP ones were far from it.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Constraint View Post
    I mean, would you enjoy Shado-Pan less if they removed those goddamned jumping apprentice Pandas from the room after the frost arrows gauntlet? I certainly wouldn't. Would you enjoy Stormstout Brewery less if the dungeon was less about fighting thousands of Jazz Jackrabbits and getting Ooked in the Dook on a regular basis? Would you enjoy Gates of the Setting Sun less if you didn't have to stand around for 5 minutes while absurdly easy explosive mantids came at you 1 at a time?
    Yes, to everything but Gates, which could be sped up/increased mob flow.
    I think you forgot the RPG exists are the end of MMO. I play specifically to see those events.

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  15. #255
    Stood in the Fire intrinsc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constraint View Post
    No. It took roughly the same time as the other expansions, plus had 2 additional races. Any further questions?
    You are so full of it. WoW came out in November 2004 and TBC came out in January 2007. That is, lets count(since you suck at it), 2 years and 2 months. That's assuming that TBC started development the second WoW was launched, which I doubt. I bet TBC was in development for over 3 years alongside Vanilla.

  16. #256
    I am fine with the number but only on one condition:

    They need to add dungeons to every patch that releases a raid.

    Getting them as the expac goes on is the best way IMO. People would get new ones to keep them interested throughout the expansion's life instead of all at once to get bored of quickly.

    LFR and scenarios are not a replacement for dungeons. I have been a avid dungeon runner since WoW came out. Never liked or got into raiding, and yes I have tried it. Scenarios are fun for solo quests to tell a story but bad for group content. This is what made MoP the worst expansion for me. Not the Asian theme or anything else about it. It could have been the best expac with new dungeons released with, say, Throne of Thunder.

  17. #257
    Bloodsail Admiral Constraint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intrinsc View Post
    You are so full of it. WoW came out in November 2004 and TBC came out in January 2007. That is, lets count(since you suck at it), 2 years and 2 months. That's assuming that TBC started development the second WoW was launched, which I doubt. I bet TBC was in development for over 3 years alongside Vanilla.
    Shit, guys. Stop the thread. It was released a whole 1 month earlier than Cataclysm, which took 2 years and 1 month. How would you know when they started development of said expansions? They've often stated they've started developing them before their predecessors were even released - why should that only apply to TBC?

    Enough bickering without any supporting facts - if you're saying the extra 1 month that TBC took to release enabled them to put forth an extra 7-8 ADDITIONAL dungeons, normal and heroic, then I really don't know what to say to you.

    Move along.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    So we get another expansion with 10 levels to level up like TBC and Wrath, YET, they come out and say there will only be 5 new dungeons and 2 rehashed dungeons. So a total of 7 "new" dungeons? While comparing that to TBC with 15 new dungeons. That means 15 dungeons with unique bosses, loot for each boss, and varied environments.

    Is blizzard getting too comfortable with giving their player base less content just because we have grown accustomed to the lack of content in the past 2 expansions?

    I would think the casual playerbase would also be upset because that just means there is a lack of things to do for them aside from LFR (which even they dont feel is real content).

    WoD looks beautiful. I think they really shot for the stars on this expansion, I just wish they would have been more creative and focused on more 5 man content at release. I think we will get more 5 man dungeons over the course of the expansion, but it feels lame compared to 15 brand new dungeons from the get go of TBC.

    Thoughts?
    My thoughts are that you need to stop using crappy buzzwords like rehash to turn people off from the expansion, trying to get them to dislike it before they even know what dungeons are even going to be redone, long before they're ever actually released.

  19. #259
    I don't think very many of you guys played during TBC or something...

    there was a reason why TBC had so many dungeons

    1) Rep grinds
    2) Dungeon sets, and importance of ger
    3) different big picture outcomes

    There were 4 zones that had 3 dungeons each, as well as caverns of time having 2 dungeons, mostly sharing the same over arching theme, they were different dungeons that hardly had the same mechanics and individually played out differently. Back in TBC you got rep for running dungeons in these zones, you couldn't put on a tabard and get rep you actually had to set foot in the instance. If there was only 1 dungeon for the rep it would have been a hell hole, there was a basic necessity to have more dungeons to split up the monotony. Right now there is no rep grind so there's ONE reason why you don't need 14 dungeons.

    Dungeon sets and over all gear was pretty big back then they carried you through a lot of 10m content and set you up for 25m raiding. nowadays with lfr flex and normals the gear you get in 5m heroics is essentially useless, you're running heroics to vp cap and get jp, not to get gear and the gear you get is to unlock lfr, the gear itself is useless, so there's not a reason to have so many dungeons to have a wide variety of loot to fit everyone.

    I think a lot of people are looking at dungeons from an archaic point of view. If you want to have more 5m dungeons you need to revert back to old school styles of pre raiding to properly fit the time line of entering raiding. 5m's aren't a big thing anymore, as blizzard continues to cater to casual raiding, and i'm not saying this condescendingly, things like 5ms lose purpose because it's easier to get epics to replace the blue gear now then it was 6 years ago.

  20. #260
    Totally agree. Blizzard is giving us less content than ever and people are brainwashed into being happy with it. Why play a game with nothing to do....

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