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  1. #221
    Fluffy Kitten Krekko's Avatar
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    Derah's comment hit the nail right on the head.

    We romanticize the fact that TBC had so many dungeons, but many of them were very minor changes to the environment. If Blizzard did that now, you'd see a ton of backlash too.

    "Wow, Blizzard, way to give us the same 4 instances using one basic model, are you really that lazy that all you did was change the mobs and props? Come on Bli$$!!!!1!1!!!"

    People would argue that they were being uncreative, and the instances were uninspired. People would complain that it was not unique enough.

    Honestly, is it bad that they were just same body different clothes? No. Just as it's not bad that they went with a less, but "more" methodology moving on from it.
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  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Manataurus View Post
    I'm relatively certain that they're talking about the amount at launch. There will most likely be more added in later patches.
    You mean like they did in MoP? Oh wait..

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Courierrawr View Post
    You mean like they did in MoP? Oh wait..
    The developers didnt say they would add more. Some time after 4.1, GC said he regretted planning for more. Content wise expansions are generally planned out before it even launches and all that can generally be done is introduction of a new feature that was already planned or a feature using already available or to be available content. The developers was so sure of themselves that LFR would prove to be the long term grind replacement of shorter alternatives for non-raiders. Because of this no dungeon content was planned to be designed and LFR was propped up heavily with rewards over non-raid content in order to insure players spent time in it. This failed dispite various attempts to make LFR more rewarding and pulling rewards away from other players like tier gear on vendors and VP vendor gear. Yeah Blizzard likes to do stupid stuff even ones that dont sound logical like shoving players who have no interests in raiding into the very thing they didnt like in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by lyphe View Post
    Mop dungeons weren't bad - the difficulty was just tuned for people with the IQ of a fork which made them feel irrelevant.
    Which very much feels like intended as players was supposed to quickly gear up and get shoved into LFR meaning that less experienced players would still do them especially when alternatives was made more efficient. The developers didnt want players to use five mans as their long term content. Even scenarios and dailies would get overshadowed by LFR while being a far shorter grind than LFR.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2014-01-25 at 02:59 AM.

  4. #224
    I was planning on getting WoD just to check it out and see how it is. But now I'm considering not getting it at all. They can't be bothered to make raids, can't be bothered to add more 5 mans, the content for WoD as a whole is lacking...what exactly am I paying for?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by beardedcandy View Post
    MANY TBC dungeons were almost never run (auchidon in particular) just because of how awful they were.
    Uhhh BS. Everyone did all of them when they farmed badges.

  5. #225
    The Lightbringer Fullmetal89's Avatar
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    Well better to bitch and moan now then wait until Xpac is released and get disappointed. I personally feel that WoD doesn't sound like a full expansion from the stuff that has been revealed. While I'm excited to experience the new area I don't know it feels a bit anemic. Unless Garrisons is something that will add 100s of hours of gameplay I can't see anything substantial about this xpac. This feels like what Cata felt back when it was released, I'll play it for 2-3 months then cancel my account till the next xpac.
    "I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids. "
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  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Derah View Post
    You conveniently forget that those "15" dungeons used the same environments recycled over and over with just a minor tweak here and there. Mana-Tombs, Shadow Labyrinth Auchenai Cripts, and Sektekk Halls all used the same environments, so that's ONE.

    Slave Pens, Underbog and Steamvault all used the same environments, so that's TWO.

    Hellfire Ramparts, Blood Furnace, and Shattered Halls all used the exact same environments, so that's THREE.

    Mechanar, Botanica, and Arcatraz all used the same environments, so that's FOUR.

    And then we have the other instances which rather than offer new environments, just recycled props from the zones in the game. Old Hillsbrad was just a copy-paste of Hillsbrad. Black Morass was just a copy-paste of Swamp of Sorrows. Magister Terrace was just a copypaste of every blood elf building we've seen.

    In total, we got 4 new environments recycled multiple times for several dungeons, and 3 dungeons who couldn't even do that and instead just copied environments from the zones in the game.

    Ohh yes, the superior quality OOZES on those production values. See how things work when you take off the nostalgia goggles?
    I could care less for the same architecture.

    Each dungeon had different bossfights/mechanics and loot.
    ~45 vs ~25 bossfights. Thats what is important for me. Not some visual snowflakes.

  7. #227
    The Lightbringer Fullmetal89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    I was planning on getting WoD just to check it out and see how it is. But now I'm considering not getting it at all. They can't be bothered to make raids, can't be bothered to add more 5 mans, the content for WoD as a whole is lacking...what exactly am I paying for?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Uhhh BS. Everyone did all of them when they farmed badges.
    As someone who was very active in BC I can testify to this. If you played BC and you weren't doing a raid you where running heroics for rep/gold/enchant mats and badges.
    "I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids. "
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  8. #228
    Banned The Penguin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    Only because they were so easy and throw away. WoD dungeons will be much harder. They compared the difficulty to pre nerf Vortex Pinnacle.
    They had better give people the tools to actually heal through it this time then.

    One more screw up like Cataclysm and even the firing of Ghostcrawler won't save their hides.

  9. #229
    Cata dungeons were fine. People were bitching about them before they were out of blue gear.

    You know they were fine because they didn't nerf them, they just gave people doing them through LFG a buff, and left preformed groups with the original difficulty. Implying that LFG and random retards are the problem.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Paintank View Post
    Hey its you again, so how many whine threads did you make again?
    Just to make you remember, development for BC was always WAY longer...
    I'll play devil's advocate: Blizzard has a LOT more developers, QA Software testers, architects, designers, engineers, project managers, business analysts, etc etc.... WAY more. Back in 2005 they didn't have half of those positions, let alone tons of each of them.

    So, your point is moot. YES it takes more development/testing time, but they ALSO have plenty of resources and money to back that up.

    I'm a software developer, not going to say they need to release more content, but the excuse that they took longer? No. They took longer because they were stretching the resources they had, it's tough to push a release out with time constraints, even worse with everyone doing three times the work they should be, but with their size and staffing, that's not even an issue at this point.

    Also, people need to understand something: It's not the actual development/coding that's time consuming. It's the analysis, impact considerations, business requirements, design, revisit the design, more requirements, more redesign, impact assessment, impact, test case development, test case documentation, requirements rework, reqwuirements documentation.... the listgoes on and on.

    Coding it? Some days here and there, probably a month combined total considering the number of devs they have (not a month at once, but of solid, straight coding time).

    SDLC (look it up if you don't know) is quite the process at ANY large software company, I'm assuming Blizzard is probably Agile or Waterfall, either way it's a rigorous process working through something as extensive as an expansion.

    TL ; DR: Development is not the sole reason for the drop in content, content is much more expensive and extensive to produce, so they're making less of it for the same expense. Considering the loss in subs every year for almost 3 years, that's acceptable business practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Komie View Post
    They still say Cata needs a lot of work, and this expansion (edit for reference: MoP) is in the final stages.
    Quoted for... truth? on 11/30/2011.

  11. #231
    Mechagnome intrinsc's Avatar
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    Didn't TBC take like 3 years to come out? You do the math.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebbikenezer View Post
    TL ; DR: Development is not the sole reason for the drop in content, content is much more expensive and extensive to produce, so they're making less of it for the same expense. Considering the loss in subs every year for almost 3 years, that's acceptable business practice.
    My issue is that we all know they CAN put out more content, though. Some indie games put out more content than they do. Bliz made 200 million+ this year from the shop ALONE, yet we can't get more than 5(7) dungeons? Please. They just aren't willing to invest in the game anymore so they'll give us as little as we'll take.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    My issue is that we all know they CAN put out more content, though. Some indie games put out more content than they do. Bliz made 200 million+ this year from the shop ALONE, yet we can't get more than 5(7) dungeons? Please. They just aren't willing to invest in the game anymore so they'll give us as little as we'll take.
    From a development standpoint indie games tend to be far more simple and less resources intensive to make that AAA games which feature higher levels of detail to various aspects of the game including art, event, and balance. We would likely see much more content if Blizzard didnt update the level of detail from Classic including character models.

  14. #234
    Herald of the Titans Baine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    So we get another expansion with 10 levels to level up like TBC and Wrath, YET, they come out and say there will only be 5 new dungeons and 2 rehashed dungeons. So a total of 7 "new" dungeons? While comparing that to TBC with 15 new dungeons. That means 15 dungeons with unique bosses, loot for each boss, and varied environments.

    Is blizzard getting too comfortable with giving their player base less content just because we have grown accustomed to the lack of content in the past 2 expansions?

    I would think the casual playerbase would also be upset because that just means there is a lack of things to do for them aside from LFR (which even they dont feel is real content).

    WoD looks beautiful. I think they really shot for the stars on this expansion, I just wish they would have been more creative and focused on more 5 man content at release. I think we will get more 5 man dungeons over the course of the expansion, but it feels lame compared to 15 brand new dungeons from the get go of TBC.

    Thoughts?
    I do not understand the decision to add less dungeons for WoD than before (9 for MoP and Cata in a more recent past). Hpwever, in TBC, outside those dungeons, you had nothing to do which will not be the case for WoD. So, in all, I prefer to have 7 dungeons and plenty of other stuff than 15 dungeons and nothing else.

  15. #235
    and how many scenarios did bc have again?

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    My issue is that we all know they CAN put out more content, though. Some indie games put out more content than they do. Bliz made 200 million+ this year from the shop ALONE, yet we can't get more than 5(7) dungeons? Please. They just aren't willing to invest in the game anymore so they'll give us as little as we'll take.
    You run a business. Every year you sell product X for $$40. You get some kickback every month for Product X. You have (to keep it simple) 20 employees who each get paid 50k salary (1 Million expense per year).

    Your product sells 4 million per year. That's 160 million.

    Your agent (publisher) takes 90 of your 160 Million.

    Your marketing costs you 20 Million.

    Your maintenance costs you 60 million/year (cutting edge tech for product X).

    Your yearly kickback (subs) total about 42 Million after taxes, fees, associated licensing, maintenance, customer retenmtion, discounts for bulk, etc etc.

    You're sitting at 31 million profit.

    Oops, you have trademarks, patents, lawsuits, overseas affairs and legal matters to be handled. Away goes another 22 million.

    So, you are public, pay out dividends to your investors, and you know what? You are in the black. You show some profit. Not a ton, but enough to certainly keep you happy, and hey the employee benefits didn't really bother you much because it was enough to still be a multi million dollar public company.

    By the way: Your customers are young and don't understand the effort you just put into this. You have 8 months to produce the same exact results. You'll need to quadruple your staff, and even then product x_2 will really only be a mild extension of product X, but your customers are already invested, most of them will buy into it, HOWEVER you will lose some.

    It's a vicious cycle, especially being a public company when you have to show investors how you'll continue increasing profit to make them money on their money.

    Something has to give, somewhere, for that to happen. That's all I'm pointing out. You want 10+ dungeons, more content? Then sit down and wait an extra year. Otherwise, come up with a suggestion to balance this out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Komie View Post
    They still say Cata needs a lot of work, and this expansion (edit for reference: MoP) is in the final stages.
    Quoted for... truth? on 11/30/2011.

  17. #237
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    My issue is that we all know they CAN put out more content, though. Some indie games put out more content than they do. Bliz made 200 million+ this year from the shop ALONE, yet we can't get more than 5(7) dungeons? Please. They just aren't willing to invest in the game anymore so they'll give us as little as we'll take.
    They said they are doing new dungeons every tier. That's more than fine.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Pilkie View Post
    Not only that but they're the buggiest of any dungeons i did. MoP is the first time through my many years of playing where I was unable to complete a dungeon due to bugs, wether it be the last boss in scarlet bugging and not ressing or someone that got locked out and caused the boss to despawn
    Im the opposite, this is the first version of the game ive never encountered bugs in the 5mans. Wrath - Tyrannus used to bug all the time, ToC5 used to bug non stop so you couldnt complete it. TBC where heroics could wipe the group if you didnt have interrupts in your group makeup. Where soft resetting to get a viable mob combo was almost required if you didnt have 5 skilled players in a semi PvP environment (Magisters). A mob which MC's everyone and throws them through a wall and bugs out an entire heroic, making said heroic impossible to finish until next day. Vanilla, well there were alot of bugs in random places, feared through walls/floor, pathing issues for pets (instead of straight flat line lets make the hunter pet run through 5 groups 30 yards to the left instead etc).

  19. #239
    Pandaren Monk Constraint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intrinsc View Post
    Didn't TBC take like 3 years to come out? You do the math.
    No. It took roughly the same time as the other expansions, plus had 2 additional races. Any further questions?

  20. #240
    I am starting to think that I am the only person who responded in the following ways:

    TBC: CRAP! More dungeons? And I gotta make a key to do what? Eff that, I'll roll alts.
    Wrath: Okay, not so bad, and I don't jump through hoops to do heroics. Still takes forever.
    Cata: Wait, you mean I need to do the instance to get the iLVL needed...to do the instance? What the balls? Dailies it is, then.
    MoP: Dungeons? Meh, there's STORY in them there zones.

    I play for story, and the story in dungeons rarely has any impact on the plot outside of them. So long as the zones have strong plots, I'm not going to care about dungeons. I don't raid because even in LFR people are c**kmongers who threaten to kick and report me because I'm having issues between lag and learning the encounters, and everyone I know IRL has realm hopped a few times, and I don't feel like starting from scratch with no gold flow every other week. I don't even do scenarios because I hate constantly having to chase everyone down because everyone freaking rushed through everything. I swear that's the reason the Pandas are so quick to tell us to "slow down."

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