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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by quitefrankly View Post
    How can people complain about more Battle Fatigue as a hotfix until MoP? Every game is a 15 mins one and healer mana is never an issue. If anything, dampening should be applied straight out of the gates
    its because some classes use self healing as a defensive tool, while others get straight up damage mitigation, can you guess which type of defensive mechanic gets hurts by the change?

    besides only 3s games that go to max time tend to be wiz mirrors.
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  2. #22
    Stood in the Fire Sforza's Avatar
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    We are so fatigued now! i better stay in bed!
    Seriously? i hope they remove battle fatigue in WoD

  3. #23
    Titan apepi's Avatar
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    My boomkin is crying in the corner.

    These numbers are getting out of hand. What is the point of getting new gear if they will just nerf us anyways? I understand people dont want to be oneshot but there has to be a better answer then this. I don't want to wait for wod for a fix.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  4. #24
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sforza View Post
    We are so fatigued now! i better stay in bed!
    Seriously? i hope they remove battle fatigue in WoD
    Wouldn't that make healers practically gods(No they aren't gods right now. Not even close).
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! My Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeluron Big fanboy of Yrel now. Love her now

  5. #25
    65% less healing is hilarious as a hybrid it's insanely retarded, in raids i can be bursting out 500k hps to help out my healers, and i've healed myself for 300k crits with Healing Surge.

    yet in pvp i can barely outheal 1 bleed, it's like a totally difference game, should be called Healing Dirge, because it's not healing it's just trolling me.

  6. #26
    Titan apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Wouldn't that make healers practically gods(No they aren't gods right now. Not even close).
    No. Reduce all base damage and then reduce base healing altogether and that is what needs to be done. Removing something doesn't mean that you will not replace it with something. Which is different from having a bandaid patch to it. It would affect bosses and etc and make everything even.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    65% less healing is hilarious as a hybrid it's insanely retarded, in raids i can be bursting out 500k hps to help out my healers, and i've healed myself for 300k crits with Healing Surge.

    yet in pvp i can barely outheal 1 bleed, it's like a totally difference game, should be called Healing Dirge, because it's not healing it's just trolling me.
    You forgot to factor in MS Debuff.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspellz View Post
    don't think you understand what FOTM means, just because multi rank 1 players played their main class while it was strong and won a tournament or two doesn't change the fact that this is been a very favorable expansion for hunters in pvp.
    that's like me saying spriest and rets are fotm even though anyone rarely plays them. when warriors were first considered fotm in the first season of mop(with the prenerfed glyph), the whole ladder was full of them. now that hunters are considered fotm, how come we don't see more of them on the ladder? shouldn't we be running into hunt/hunt/healer or hell, even triple hunter cleave teams? rank 1 players in a tournament setting will play whatever they feel is the best, because they play to win. this is the reason talbadar(who has mained a sp for as long as i can remember) ended up playing ele and rng globalling people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thassarian View Post
    BC tournament wasn't played with this season's setup/changes, was it? I didn't watch it, havn't since I wasted 40 odd minutes of my life watching a S8 BC game, but I' assume it wasn't played with 5.4's changes.
    blizzcon tournament wasnt played with 5.4 changes, it was however played during mop, in which war/hunters are supposedly fotm in every season. so please do explain how these fotm classes didn't quite make it into the final 3 when blizzcon is truly where pro gamers play whatever is the BEST to WIN.

  9. #29
    Meanwhile, my new Warrior is already lvl 78

    Going fast. Got a RAF friend, he's granting me levels.

    Everyone should quickly level one if you want to play Arenas next season.
    Haven't got a Warrior? Get one as fast as possible. Use RAF to speed it up.

  10. #30
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Warrior reduction will be something like:

    vs Magic: 100 * (1-.77) * (1-.25) = ~17% of magical damage dealt reaches the warrior
    vs Armor: 100 * (1-.77) * (1-.25) * (1-.54) = ~8% of physical damage dealt reaches the warrior.

    Spriest/Boomy/Ret reduction will be something like:

    vs Magic: 100 * (1-.77) * = 23% of magical damage dealt reaches the hybrid
    vs Armor: 100 * (1-.77) * (1-.50) = 12% of physical damage reaches the hybrid

    So, approximately hybrids will take ~35% more magic damage and ~50% more physical damage versus warriors. Warriors aren't the only ones with passive damage reduction like that - the same is true Aspect of Iron Hawk, the -15% damage reduction mage armor, Feint, Lightning Shield, Blood Presence, and etc. Due to the extremely high %'s of resilience we are seeing, the impact that passive damage reductions have on effective damage taken is becoming enormous.

    In effect, every time they increase resilience, what they are doing is not only counter-balancing increased pvp power - but also buffing passive damage reductions - often significantly : a stated 25% reduction on Defensive Stance is actually now causing a ~35% reduction in damage received.

    To put that another way, assuming hybrid and warrior damage were equal right now (it isn't, but that's not important) - if we were balancing around warriors spending all match in Defensive Stance, we should be seeing hybrids balanced around doing +35% more damage than warriors in order for hybrids to deal equal damage to warrior as the damage they themselves receive from a D-stanced warrior.

    That should sound absurd, because it is - and yet that is the discrepancy in effective reduction we are seeing as a result of the the peculiar distribution of passive reductions to mostly pures and not hybrids (who were previously protected by superior self-healing, and shadowform/chickenform).
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2014-01-27 at 12:12 PM.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Seditian View Post
    I'm not really sure why healing will get reduced by 23%, while damage is getting reduced by 17%. Damage already feels way too high in arena, compared with healing. Unless healing scales a lot harder than damage, which it doesn't, I don't see why they're nerfing it harder.
    Spirit. You're able to heal a lot more without mana concerns.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    No. Reduce all base damage and then reduce base healing altogether and that is what needs to be done. Removing something doesn't mean that you will not replace it with something. Which is different from having a bandaid patch to it. It would affect bosses and etc and make everything even.
    Reducing damage at the end of every expansion wouldn't work. What would work is if they would make stamina more powerful. That way our hp would be able to scale together with the increasing damage.

    It will make non-current raids incredibly easy to outgear though, but it would also remove the need to nerf current content before everyone has finished it. (Siegecrafter/Thok/klaxxi nerfs for instance)

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziene View Post
    Dear god, I hope you are not using this toon in WoD. Holinka already stated that resilience will be eventually be removed....

    http://wow.joystiq.com/2014/01/10/wa...igue-eliminat/

    For just a season? Meh, just do what you can...
    no he said he want it lower and maybe removed in WoD. and there is a diffrence between what he wants and what we get.
    they also wanted to add dance studio in wotlk. yet 2 almost 3 exp laters still no sign of dance studio. and i know there will be no dance studio. but i was just getting my point across.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Wouldn't that make healers practically gods(No they aren't gods right now. Not even close).
    nope there going to tune the ilvl and dmg/healing off all classes. so if a boss deals 1/10 of his normal attack healers also need to heal only 1/10 of the healing they do now. so if they lower the dps needed to bring a boss down. they can remove the pvp resiliance. and if they lower the healing needed in pve they can remove battle fatigue. or atleast lower both of them.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Warrior reduction will be something like:

    vs Magic: 100 * (1-.77) * (1-.25) = ~17% of magical damage dealt reaches the warrior
    vs Armor: 100 * (1-.77) * (1-.25) * (1-.54) = ~8% of physical damage dealt reaches the warrior.

    Spriest/Boomy/Ret reduction will be something like:

    vs Magic: 100 * (1-.77) * = 23% of magical damage dealt reaches the hybrid
    vs Armor: 100 * (1-.77) * (1-.50) = 12% of physical damage reaches the hybrid

    So, approximately hybrids will take ~35% more magic damage and ~50% more physical damage versus warriors. Warriors aren't the only ones with passive damage reduction like that - the same is true Aspect of Iron Hawk, the -15% damage reduction mage armor, Feint, Lightning Shield, Blood Presence, and etc. Due to the extremely high %'s of resilience we are seeing, the impact that passive damage reductions have on effective damage taken is becoming enormous.

    In effect, every time they increase resilience, what they are doing is not only counter-balancing increased pvp power - but also buffing passive damage reductions - often significantly : a stated 25% reduction on Defensive Stance is actually now causing a ~35% reduction in damage received.

    To put that another way, assuming hybrid and warrior damage were equal right now (it isn't, but that's not important) - if we were balancing around warriors spending all match in Defensive Stance, we should be seeing hybrids balanced around doing +35% more damage than warriors in order for hybrids to deal equal damage to warrior as the damage they themselves receive from a D-stanced warrior.

    That should sound absurd, because it is - and yet that is the discrepancy in effective reduction we are seeing as a result of the the peculiar distribution of passive reductions to mostly pures and not hybrids (who were previously protected by superior self-healing, and shadowform/chickenform).
    I don't get what lead you to this numbers... The relative bonus of D-stance is still the same, it's always a flat 25 % damage reduction.
    Edit : I get it, is a referencial percentage problem : 25 % damage reduction needs an upgrade in damage of 33,3 % to be neglected. But yeah, it's still a flat 25 % damage reduction, it's not 35%. So it's still the same in a relative damage reduction POV.

    Plus, warriors are now the only class which deal physical damage (other "physical" dps mainly deal "magic" damages), and Colossus Smash can negate 50% of it. Armor sounds like an outdated mechanism in PvP environment.

  14. #34
    Poor DKs, does that mean AMS absorbs 1/2 an icelance now?

    This whole battlefatigue thing is so dumb, it just shows how much they screwed this expansion that we even need it when we didn't in Cata, WOTLK or tbc.
    Last edited by Emophia; 2014-01-27 at 02:22 PM.

  15. #35
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LatexIdo View Post
    But yeah, it's still a flat 25 % damage reduction, it's not 35%. So it's still the same in a relative damage reduction POV.
    The value may be the same (25%) on the tooltip, but due to the very high level of resilience reduction, the effect is greater than is written - to the order of 35% rather than 25%. Divide 23% (the value of damage after mitigation a hybrid takes) over 17% (the value a warrior takes) and you arrive at 35% additional magic damage taken by hybrids in comparison to warriors (resulting from Defensive Stance).

    This is the true value of defensive stance, as opposed to the 25% which would only be true if resilience didn't exist (as in PvE). Which I'm not bringing up to pick on warriors, it's true for all forms of passive % reduction when combined with resilience.

    Plus, warriors are now the only class which deal physical damage (other "physical" dps mainly deal "magic" damages), and Colossus Smash can negate 50% of it. Armor sounds like an outdated mechanism in PvP environment.
    Warriors don't deal physical damage either. Bleeds ignore armour, and now represent a very significant portion of Warrior damage - and burst cycles occur during Colossus Smash which as mentioned reduces armour by 50%. The only largely physical damage dealer still is Combat Rogues - who have poison damage and Shadowblades, but generally deal a high percentage of physical damage.

    Leaving Spriests, Balance, and Rets with armour as their only mitigation beyond resilience is akin to giving us a stat called "Anti-swashbucklery: reduces the damage taken by Combat Rogues by X%" - it makes no sense at all - especcially given that precisely because Combat Rogues are the only armor-mitigated melee, they are out of fashion and will remain so until they too ignore armour.
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  16. #36
    Dreadlord DrMcNinja's Avatar
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    Yvaella I would post that first post of yours about the %s on the WoW forums and link said forum post to Mr.Holinka. See if they actually respond with something.
    WoW without flying is like having Pizza, instead of flying right over it

  17. #37
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrMcNinja View Post
    Yvaella I would post that first post of yours about the %s on the WoW forums and link said forum post to Mr.Holinka. See if they actually respond with something.


    As soon as I posted it I tweeted the link to Holinka and Celestalon
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Melubyou View Post
    that's like me saying spriest and rets are fotm even though anyone rarely plays them. when warriors were first considered fotm in the first season of mop(with the prenerfed glyph), the whole ladder was full of them. now that hunters are considered fotm, how come we don't see more of them on the ladder? shouldn't we be running into hunt/hunt/healer or hell, even triple hunter cleave teams? rank 1 players in a tournament setting will play whatever they feel is the best, because they play to win. this is the reason talbadar(who has mained a sp for as long as i can remember) ended up playing ele and rng globalling people.



    blizzcon tournament wasnt played with 5.4 changes, it was however played during mop, in which war/hunters are supposedly fotm in every season. so please do explain how these fotm classes didn't quite make it into the final 3 when blizzcon is truly where pro gamers play whatever is the BEST to WIN.
    hunters cleave are all over the place!??!?! where have you been there is like 15 hunters in the top 100, and have been strong if not outright op since day 1 of MOP

    and not every player can multi class at tournament level. Btw he had a shaman since wrath
    Stormspellz -mugthol
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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Warrior reduction will be something like:

    vs Magic: 100 * (1-.77) * (1-.25) = ~17% of magical damage dealt reaches the warrior
    vs Armor: 100 * (1-.77) * (1-.25) * (1-.54) = ~8% of physical damage dealt reaches the warrior.

    Spriest/Boomy/Ret reduction will be something like:

    vs Magic: 100 * (1-.77) * = 23% of magical damage dealt reaches the hybrid
    vs Armor: 100 * (1-.77) * (1-.50) = 12% of physical damage reaches the hybrid

    So, approximately hybrids will take ~35% more magic damage and ~50% more physical damage versus warriors. Warriors aren't the only ones with passive damage reduction like that - the same is true Aspect of Iron Hawk, the -15% damage reduction mage armor, Feint, Lightning Shield, Blood Presence, and etc. Due to the extremely high %'s of resilience we are seeing, the impact that passive damage reductions have on effective damage taken is becoming enormous.
    So, you need to list what is going on with this. The stuff MOST HURT by these changes are things like "heal for x% of your life". The thing UNCHANGED by this is "take Y% less damage". Things like "heal based on spellpower" lie in the middle.

    The "warrior" chart of course is in dstance. Warriors benefit from plate, which makes a lot of physical damage not hit them much at all- the dstance option (much like feint, and iron hawk) modifies all incoming damage.


    In effect, every time they increase resilience, what they are doing is not only counter-balancing increased pvp power - but also buffing passive damage reductions - often significantly : a stated 25% reduction on Defensive Stance is actually now causing a ~35% reduction in damage received.
    That's... not the way I would phrase that. In fact, a percentage damage reduction is doing the same thing as it was before- it's heals that are getting weaker. As you have surmised, this hurts hybrid healers a lot, because that is intended to be their defense. Yes, it hurts recuperate much more than renew- but rogues have other tricks besides that. Second wind gets hurt more than power word shield, but warriors have percent reductions as well.

    It is likely that Blizzard feels that these two sort of cancel- that seems hopeful and wrong.

    Remember that damage increases are quite meaningful with item level, which is what these huge swings are about in the first place. We can (roughly) expect mainspec damage and mainspec healing to increase by 35%. That's how item levels work, roughly- your mileage may vary, but overall this is the case.

    So, what happens if we change nothing? Health does not scale by the correct amount. It never has. In the olden days, we had solutions like, extra resil on gear, or something you could opt in to. Before that, we had very small item level pushes to mitigate the issue. But this expansion has 100 item levels in a year- it is clear that they intend to spin this treadmill as fast as possible. So if mortal strike hits you for 8% of your health pool, and a regrowth heals you for 12%, with 35% boost to throughput and smaller boost to your health pool, you'll see like a 10% mortal strike and a 15% regrowth- the game has just become swingy. The guy who could CC your healer and burst you for 85% of your health can now kill you a good chunk of the time, etc. To fix the swingy, they implement a reduction in damage output and healing output, to take it back to 8% and 12%.


    So far, so good! Everything is fair, right?


    Nope! Your phrasing is a bit off though. See, the 30% elufeint, or the 25% dstance, or any of the percent reductions- they work the exact same as before. Everything is aces there. Those are balanced correctly and work properly.

    Here are the problems:

    1- Percent based heals, such as second wind and recuperate.
    Second wind is way too strong. Recuperate is a bit too weak. But nowadays you see very little of either, because these moves are buffed mildly by pvp power, and not at all by strength/agility, crit, mastery, or haste. But for no good reason, they are gutted by battfat. These moves become unviable and entirely worthless. Moves like leeching poison, which were stink to begin with, are ludicrous now- the damage is reduced by resilience, multiplied by like 10%, then reduced by battfat. A bad pve talent becomes a rounding error and worthless in pvp.

    2- Hybrid heals, such as everything a shadow priest or moonkin does.
    This is a big deal. While not as gutted as (1), rogues and warriors don't rely fully on those moves- they have properly functioning things such as dstance. These moves get crapped on by battfat. They also are, entirely without warrant, not fully buffed by pvp power (the mainspec heals are properly boosted by pvp power- this scaling delta was an issue in S2, and it's crippling by now). While intellect, haste, and critical strike tend to scale with these, mastery definitely does not. Lacking two of these stats means that their scaling is less- a S1 shadow priest would be able to heal for more of his health bar over time, and CERTAINLY over his whole mana pool, than an S3 spriest now, and an S4 spriest will be even fucking worse.


    Hybrid healers are effected less than the percentage healers, but those guys have damage reductions as their bigger mechanics, which aren't effected at all. This has created a large delta. If this went on to S6, the healing done by a moonkin rejuv (currently rather good) would be poor, and the healing done by an spriest (currently barely adequate) would be laughable.



    The loss of the passive DR was probably made in good faith. They didn't want these specs to shine defensively in pve versus other casters, and casters in general should be less hardy than melee (don't warlock this convo please!). That isn't a bad goal, even though I had long assumed these perks were intended- balance druids perhaps less so, but shadowform had been 15% DR more or less since vanilla. The pvp ramifications of these removals were probably made offhandedly- "well, we have plenty of spriests doing ok right now, so we'll just buff them another way later". These changes were guaranteed to have bad outcomes in pvp, and were made with zero compensation to specs that were not overrepped and relied on these minor reductions as part of their core viability.

    Batfatt, resil, and pvp power have all colluded to absolutely destroy any sense of continuity between what a character thinks he can do and what happens in arena. It's so out of line that it's effectively entirely different games with no relation.

    Example: If you put on pve gear, your renew as disc or shadow will be relatively similar compared to if you put on pvp gear. What the hell is that about?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Leaving Spriests, Balance, and Rets with armour as their only mitigation beyond resilience is akin to giving us a stat called "Anti-swashbucklery: reduces the damage taken by Combat Rogues by X%" - it makes no sense at all - especcially given that precisely because Combat Rogues are the only armor-mitigated melee, they are out of fashion and will remain so until they too ignore armour.

    The laugh this produced got me stares at Starbucks.

    THANKS OBAMA

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    In effect, every time they increase resilience, what they are doing is not only counter-balancing increased pvp power - but also buffing passive damage reductions - often significantly : a stated 25% reduction on Defensive Stance is actually now causing a ~35% reduction in damage received.
    Sorry but that is totally wrong. A 25% damage reduction for one person does always mean everyone else is taking 33.3% more damage than him, regardless if resilience ist at 77% or 0%. Those factors are multiplicative and have always the same relative effect on absolute numbers. So please learn 2 math before you are starting baseless myths that will remain in peoples heads forever ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    The value may be the same (25%) on the tooltip, but due to the very high level of resilience reduction, the effect is greater than is written - to the order of 35% rather than 25%. Divide 23% (the value of damage after mitigation a hybrid takes) over 17% (the value a warrior takes) and you arrive at 35% additional magic damage taken by hybrids in comparison to warriors (resulting from Defensive Stance).

    This is the true value of defensive stance, as opposed to the 25% which would only be true if resilience didn't exist (as in PvE). Which I'm not bringing up to pick on warriors, it's true for all forms of passive % reduction when combined with resilience.
    Again, thats total BS. Everyone else taking a 100% damage vs 75% as a warrior is also a 33.3% increase the same way with 77% base resilience when everyone else takes 23% damage compared to 17.25% a warrior in defensive stance takes. Thats a simple rule of proportion.
    Last edited by luckydevours; 2014-01-28 at 05:53 AM.

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