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  1. #1
    Pandaren Monk Shuji V2's Avatar
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    WoW changed to accommodate haters

    I've just read the frontpage and I'm absolutely shocked by this "design" approach. I'm referring to this:
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Man, the old talent trees were the worst. The sheer number of people that would complain about class balance, about high end progression tuning, about this or that, and when we'd look into it... it'd turn out they just didn't know what they were doing. They had gone for the ultra rare 16/16/19 build, or whatever, and the reason they absolutely hated the game is because, ultimately, we let them make the wrong choices. I think the cynical response is that it's their fault and they should just know to be better if they care, but it's the game that allowed it.

    It'd be real easy if everyone understood when they were making the suboptimal choices and were ok with it. That's just not how it works in practice.
    What they're saying is, we had to change the game in order to accommodate those who do not know how to play, who hate the game, who make the wrong choices, who need to be spoonfed and so on. It makes a lot of sense now how those who used to love the game are so unsatisfied with the game where as the people who love the game now refer to older expansions as shit, complicated, nostalgia goggles and so on.

    To me this makes no sense at all. Why would you want to change the game for people who HATE your game? Why not improve the game for the reasons people LOVE the game? Seems like a backwards design philosophy imo. But I understand that there are more people who have no interest in this game so that does make for a bigger pool of potential subscribers.

    What do you think of this? To me it feels like those who truly fell in love with the game were not as important as those who were unsatisfied with it. Feels like a backstab really.

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer Seriss's Avatar
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    On the other hand you could say that people came to hate the game because it didn't feel good to play it when people made some wrong clicks in a talent interface.

    I don't think anybody inherently hates the game.

  3. #3
    As much as I liked the old talent trees, I would often follow guides for optimal builds. Anyone who played seriously did the same. In a situation like that, is there really choice? You either choose the spec that someone else laid out for you or you're suboptimal.

    It's the same with reforging. Cool concept, but there's no choice when you run your character through Askmrrobot and it tells you what to do. I really don't think it's catering for haters. It's removing something that a lot of people really didn't put any thought into, and rewarded people who were competent enough to do a google search.
    Have you heard of the critically acclaimed MMORPG Final Fantasy XIV? With an expanded free trial which you can play through the entirety of A Realm Reborn and the award winning Heavensward expansion up to level 60 for free with no restrictions on playtime?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Kudos View Post
    As much as I liked the old talent trees, I would often follow guides for optimal builds. Anyone who played seriously did the same. In a situation like that, is there really choice? You either choose the spec that someone else laid out for you or you're suboptimal.
    Isn't that more or less the situation we are also on with the "new" talent trees?
    Check X Encounter optimal talents, change accordingly. Rinse and repeat next encounter. Adapt whenever next class balance happens.

    I would say that we are in a very similar spot as we were back then - when judging it accordingly to the "everyone just uses the same build" complaint.

    What I do like: Yeah, getting actual abilities or ability-changing passive talents are vastly superior to "increase X by Y%" Talent points.
    What I don't like: Leveling up feels very unrewarding. Sure your character gets slightly stronger every level up increase, but as to my own experience, is not the same as actively having to put one more extra talent point that will lead to that awesome ability down at the Old Trees. That type of progression was quite important to me.

    -

    On topic, I wouldn't say the same way the op titled the thread. Haters is a very harsh and misunderstood word.
    Changes were made, ultimately with good intentions. Be it for whatever reason.
    The old system needed a refresh look into it, needed to be improved. Unfortunately the 'new' system would also benefit of some changes in order to be even more enjoyable, but I'd say that, ultimately, was a step in the right direction (, but still ways to go until the end goal).
    Last edited by Darkeon; 2015-06-20 at 12:47 PM.

  5. #5
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    youre shocked that they retuned the game to make it more accessible for the average joe/lazy person/time constrained/mouth breather who didn't have the time, inclination or know how to look up the most effective talent specs in the game. You do realise this is like 80% of their player base right? Sure it would be nice if the game was tailored just to us who have the time and knowhow to play the game well without it being spoonfed to us but how long do you thing a game that caters to the top 10% is gonna last?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Isn't that more or less the situation we are also on with the "new" talent trees?
    Check X Encounter optimal talents, change accordingly. Rinse and repeat next encounter. Adapt whenever next class balance happens.
    difference now is that if you don't have the optimum build you can still play the character reasonably well. If you messed up speccing back in vanilla you gimped yourself hard.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikkr View Post
    difference now is that if you don't have the optimum build you can still play the character reasonably well. If you messed up speccing back in vanilla you gimped yourself hard.
    Which is another way of saying that talents are not very meaningful. Which is...what the whole argument is about, really.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikkr View Post
    difference now is that if you don't have the optimum build you can still play the character reasonably well. If you messed up speccing back in vanilla you gimped yourself hard.
    Yeah, but I was replying mainly to "Anyone who played seriously did the same. In a situation like that, is there really choice?". Currently there are talent tiers where, even though all three talents are viable in different situations or even just slightly lagging behind, if one picks X instead of Y for Z Encounter they are massively gimping themselves and the raid group.

    In the end, you always had to optimally adjust accordingly to the situation (unless playing for funsies\casually - but that's a different beast all together). Difference now being the fact that it's easier to switch on the go and on a encounter-to-encounter situation.
    I do agree with you that before it would perhaps be even more punishing as you'd specc and couldn't easily change as you can now.
    But that was a QoL change, had they allowed the liberty we have now, top-end players would also be changing entire talent builds on the encounter basis back then.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Nadiru View Post
    Which is another way of saying that talents are not very meaningful. Which is...what the whole argument is about, really.

    Or the talents are tha close that one over the other isn't that big of a deal.
    So a player can choose the one they like the best.
    Even yes basically you are right that no matter how hard they try thier will always be an optimal way and most people will cookie cutter there way to it.

  9. #9
    Talent trees to me were more of a visual feel to the game as opposed to functional. They tend to be a staple to the RPG genre.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Nadiru View Post
    Which is another way of saying that talents are not very meaningful. Which is...what the whole argument is about, really.
    But they are meaningful. I get to choose between say 3 different active abilities that deal damage and have unique animations, whereas before I got to "choose" between 3 passive talent points that increased something by 1%.

  11. #11
    Dreadlord Krothar's Avatar
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    The old talent trees felt more rewarding to me. You might not have learnt a new skill that level, but you still gained a talent point to spend. It made me actually feel somewhat more powerful. It felt like their was some progression being made, even if it was just an artificial feeling.

    My biggest issue with the new system is that, that feeling is gone. Especially as you get to level 40+. You are no longer gaining new abilities every few levels and, for me at least, no real feeling of progression. Its taken some of the importance of hitting a new level for me, other than hitting max level.

  12. #12
    Because WOW is not D&D and because talent trees have literally always been changeable, the problem of the "trap choice" was mitigated somewhat. Indeed, Blizzard could turn what would normally be trap choices into important class advantages (Moam, anyone?) through boss encounter mechanics. With dual spec and on-site respeccing, it would probably be possible to return to Wrath-era talent trees if the devs wished.

    They don't, naturally, because devs don't want players to feel like they have to google how to play their class, which is why Demonology got nerfs this patch.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    But they are meaningful. I get to choose between say 3 different active abilities that deal damage and have unique animations, whereas before I got to "choose" between 3 passive talent points that increased something by 1%.
    Ignoring the fact that not all talent tiers provide three active ability choices, they are less meaningful because you are obligated to have one of them, else you're just a gimped retard and you're out much more than 3-5% on an ability, since you're missing an entire rotational spell. And because of that, game theory pushes you to pick the most easy to use active ability instead of the one you like the most.

  13. #13
    not sure what is he even trying to say. like they can somehow make clueless people not suck by dumbing the game down. 10 years of dumbing down and people still don't know what they're doing.

    the '16/16/19' build guy is still here with us, standing in fire and blaming the healers. he is never going away either.


  14. #14
    Scarab Lord Teebone's Avatar
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    Reforging. That is where the min-maxing should be. Fine-tuning your stats, not picking the right abilities... tuning your character like a street racer. But alas with that gone....

    It's just yet another piece of Blizzard 'logic'. They want us out in the world but make it weaker than it has ever been. They want freedom of choice yet eliminate any choice in your gear. They want people to sub yet build the game lately around people that unsub/resub. They want immersion yet add Twitter.

    God these devs are fuckwads.

  15. #15
    As someone who is playing on a WotLK server right now, let me tell you: you might remember the old talent trees fondly, but they're the worst. All you have to do is look up the old WotLK cookie cutter specs or you're doing it wrong. And changing a talent point or two is a major pain in the rear end since you have to redo the whole thing every time.

    I much prefer the system introduced in MoP. Some real options and things are easily changed.
    Not every talent is pure gold ofc, but in my book the new system wins hands down against the old "pseudo freedom" system.
    Only drawback is that you don't get something new every 1-2 levels, but the old "+1% damage" talents were also nothing to write home about.

  16. #16
    What's funny is they made these changes to make the game easier, but people suck just as much today. Bashiok is such a dork

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Shuji V2 View Post

    What they're saying is, we had to change the game in order to accommodate those who do not know how to play, who hate the game, who make the wrong choices, who need to be spoonfed and so on.
    No, that's not "what they're saying". It's what you're reading into it.

    The rest is the same old discussion and there's nothing new to say about it. Useless talents & nonsensical combinations = illusion of choice, and there's nothing "complex" or "sophisticated" about you knowing where to put your talent points. The possible counter-arguments are also widely known, sufficiently regurgitated and not of further interest. So you're basically deliberately riding about semantics to, I don't know, prove that the blue poster is a moron or whatever.

    Get over the damn thing, they revamped the system 3 years ago!

  18. #18
    Deleted
    Old talent trees were more fun. More choice.

  19. #19
    Pandaren Monk Shuji V2's Avatar
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    Instead of removing everything all the time, why not add to it for once? Imo the old and new style of talents could work well together. You could unlock a dynamic talent once every xx levels while still gaining talents points every level and spend those on passives or other spec specific actives. Could even tie glyphs to talents too for even deeper customization and freedom of how to play. Hell I've even thought of awarding basic stat points you get each level to increase basic stats (sta/str/agi/int/spi) to allow for a more specialized playstyle. Instead of Blizzard deciding each level up how those points are distributed, you can do that now. It would complement the specialization you have even more and allows for min-maxing your character.

    But no, nowadays the answer to everything seems to be removing this, removing that and then remove some more. It doesn't really make for rewarding, compelling and immersive gameplay.

  20. #20
    Well accommodating to retards is always the way to go as far as $$$ is concerned.

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